Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

[Angela]

EEF - G2a2 came from coastal southwest Anatolia

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30863-the-origin-of-the-early-european-farmer

there were many different ethnicities in other areas of SW Asia

I'm sure there were other yDna lineages. I'm not sure they were all that different autosomally. The oldest evidence of neolithic settlement in Cyprus is dated to 8800–8600 BC. By that time wouldn't the population of the Near East have been pretty admixed? I think that was the implication of Paschou et al. Therefore, I would think these island hopping farmers brought the genes as well as the animals from the Zagros with them at least.

 

[Angela]

Actually orange/farmer guys inserted themselves into population of blue and green hunter gatherer in Yamnaya first. Only after mixing with farmers/orange in Yamnaya the population of Yamnaya stopped being HG, grew in numbers as new farmers (West Yamnaya), and expanded into central europe as farming community of Corded Ware. East Yamnaya stayed as HG/horseback herders/ and a bit of farmers and expanded into East Steppe as Andronovo Indo-Iranians.

Wait...So are you saying that when the authors of the Haak et al paper say that the "Yamnaya" people were half "Armenian like", they're only ta;king about the people of the eastern steppe who then became the Indo-Iranians? Z2103 is also present in the Balkans, southern Italy, Anatolia, etc.

I ask because I thought you were proposing that the Yamnaya people didn't have a big chunk of the orange component.

 

[Maciamo]

All wrong. The Unetice samples were all (3/3) I2 y dna and had less Yamnaya admixture than the Bell Beakers who were all (3/3) R1b y dna. All of the Yamnaya samples tested so far have had dark hair and dark eyes. The oldest evidence of blonde hair comes from a 5000 BC individual in hungary with an EEF autosomal makeup and I2 y dna.

looks like you were right the yamnaya but wrong about beakers, unetice, and pigmentation (1/4)

You can't know anything about pigmentation from a handful of samples. Even within a same family eye and hair colour can very tremendously.

Unetice samples obviously had less Yamna admixture than the Corded Ware or Bell Beaker since Unetice is more recent, and therefore more admixed with indigenous populations (such as I2).

If you think that three I2 samples mean that all Unetice people were I2, you shouldn't be writing on this forum (or anywhere for that matter) as you don't understand the first thing about population genetics.

Anyway, I don't understand your reply. I didn't say that I predicted that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians or that Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. I was asking Fire Haired14 if he had predicted that on Eurogenes, as he was claiming that the Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly as he predicted.

 

[Angela]

I do not know for sure, but I think they made a mistake. Karelian you can also find 6000+/- year R1b-Z2103 in15%+/- (Arkhangelsk region and amongst the Komi at 16%the same for Iraqi Jews they also have 15 -20% R1b-Z2103 so they are sampling all R1b-Z2103 and using R1b-Z2103 population regions in their models. Of course the oldest to date now is in the center of these two poles of R1b-Z2103 5-6.4K+/- the Yamnaya R1b1 sample at 7.6 K +/-

Why would this necessarily mean that the authors were "wrong"? As you know, there is no necessarily direct connection between a specific yDna lineage and autosomal signature.

 

[Angela]

Alan:What if this single R1b in the EHG was actually from a pastoralist who impregnated some EHG lady!.

It would have had to have been going on for quite a long while for this sample to be almost 100% EHG.

Alan:

I say this because I honestly doubt that an all female migration was able to impose their pastoralist lifestyle on the EHG.

I actually wouldn't find it at all surprising if the "farmers" were matrilineal in terms of descent. That might go some way toward explaining the incorporation of hunter-gatherer men in Europe. We also have the example of the American Indians. Men took on the cultural identity of their mothers.

However, in Europe the "Near Eastern" yDna lineages are also present. That isn't to say that we won't find some "G" and "J2" on the steppe, but we don't have them yet.

Also, it seems that these intrusive "Near Eastern" lineages were pastoralist, and pastoralist societies today are almost always patrilineal and patrilocal, yes?

Alan:how many times in History did it actually happen that there was an all female migration?

Never to my knowledge, although there are some mostly male migrations.

Alan: So I honestly doubt the bride hypothesis

I tend to doubt it as well. I mean, I'm very familiar with the Rape of the Sabines and all of that, but the scale in this case would have had to have been huge, I think.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm sure there were other yDna lineages. I'm not sure they were all that different autosomally. The oldest evidence of neolithic settlement in Cyprus is dated to 8800–8600 BC. By that time wouldn't the population of the Near East have been pretty admixed? I think that was the implication of Paschou et al. Therefore, I would think these island hopping farmers brought the genes as well as the animals from the Zagros with them at least.

and yet, the difference between the Yamnaya samples and the 2 EHG samples is the 'Armenian-like' admixture
this 'Armenian-like' admixture is different fom EEF
or do you think the origin of this 'Armenian-like' is not SW Asian?

 

[Fire Haired14]

You can't know anything about pigmentation from a handful of samples. Even within a same family eye and hair colour can very tremendously.

Unetice samples obviously had less Yamna admixture than the Corded Ware or Bell Beaker since Unetice is more recent, and therefore more admixed with indigenous populations (such as I2).

If you think that three I2 samples mean that all Unetice people were I2, you shouldn't be writing on this forum (or anywhere for that matter) as you don't understand the first thing about population genetics.

Anyway, I don't understand your reply. I didn't say that I predicted that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians or that Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. I was asking Fire Haired14 if he had predicted that on Eurogenes, as he was claiming that the Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly as he predicted.

I predicted at Eurogenes. Mordovians and other Volga-people might be mostly descended of Yamna-types who admixed with newcomers from Siberia. The single Saami sample Eurogenes has is from Finland and clusters with Volga-pops, so Yamna might also be similar to them. Also an Iron Age "Cimmerian" from Hungary appears to have been similar to Yamna.

Because there are so many different mutations associated with red hair and some have very obvious geographic trends it really matters which one if any of the ancient samples carry. So, if any of the R1b-Yamna or Bell beaker carry R160W which is most popular cause for red hair in the North sea, that would be evidence they carried it to northwest Europe.

 

[Sile]

I'm sure there were other yDna lineages. I'm not sure they were all that different autosomally. The oldest evidence of neolithic settlement in Cyprus is dated to 8800–8600 BC. By that time wouldn't the population of the Near East have been pretty admixed? I think that was the implication of Paschou et al. Therefore, I would think these island hopping farmers brought the genes as well as the animals from the Zagros with them at least.

The haak paper is about steppe/yamnya movement into central europe, not about anatolian

Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ~4,500 years
ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ~3/4 of their
ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of
Europe from its eastern periphery.
This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least

~3,000 years ago,and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans.

IMO, there was no J found because J seems to have origins in the fertile crescent and the zargos mountains "prevented" a massive movement north into south caucasus to follow these EN "south caucasus people " into yamnya lands

 

[Aberdeen]

All wrong. The Unetice samples were all (3/3) I2 y dna and had less Yamnaya admixture than the Bell Beakers who were all (3/3) R1b y dna. All of the Yamnaya samples tested so far have had dark hair and dark eyes. The oldest evidence of blonde hair comes from a 5000 BC individual in hungary with an EEF autosomal makeup and I2 y dna.

looks like you were right the yamnaya but wrong about beakers, unetice, and pigmentation (1/4)

Blondism is probably a lot more complex than that. My maternal grandmother had blond hair and my other three grandparents had black hair but my father and I were both born with blonde hair that got darker as we got older. And one of my sisters is a blond and the other two have always had dark hair. So it's complicated. And there were R1a types with light hair and light eyes in the Andronov sites that are about 4000 years old. And there seems to be some overlap between those modern populations that have a lot of R1b and those modern populations that have a lot of people with the red hair and blue eyes (e.g. Ireland and Scotland). So we certainly can't conclude at this point that Yamnaya people were all dark haired and dark eyed.

 

[Angela]

and yet, the difference between the Yamnaya samples and the 2 EHG samples is the 'Armenian-like' admixture
this 'Armenian-like' admixture is different fom EEF
or do you think the origin of this 'Armenian-like' is not SW Asian?

I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I do think that this "Armenian like" component is from southwest Asia if that definition includes not only the Levant but also adjacent areas involved in the genesis of the "Neolithic" package, ie. the domestication of animals as well as plants, and is distinguished from the more specialized "Southwest Asian" of, for example, the Dodecad calculators.
See:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

What I meant is that as the Neolithic farmers moved into areas like the Caucasus and/or Iran, they probably did admix with another group, as the ones who moved into Europe at some point mixed with WHG or a related population. Somehow a South Asian signal was incorporated which may be ANE related in addition to ANE from perhaps another source? The whole relationship of ANE to South Asian populations requires a lot more clarification.

See this Dienekes post:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

Also, as to the existence of a specific Caucasus group separate from the farmers in Anatolia (and ultimately EEF), I think we need to incorporate the data on Kostenki, who after all lived not so far away. According to
Eske Willerslev he was Basal Eurasian, which of course is a major component of ENF and EEF .
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/11/genome-of-kostenki-14-upper-paleolithic.html

 

[Fire Haired14]

Blondism is probably a lot more complex than that. My maternal grandmother had blond hair and my other three grandparents had black hair but my father and I were both born with blonde hair that got darker as we got older. And one of my sisters is a blond and the other two have always had dark hair. So it's complicated. And there were R1a types with light hair and light eyes in the Andronov sites that are about 4000 years old. And there seems to be some overlap between those modern populations that have a lot of R1b and those modern populations that have a lot of people with the red hair and blue eyes (e.g. Ireland and Scotland). So we certainly can't conclude at this point that Yamnaya people were all dark haired and dark eyed.

We have over 50 Eneolithic-bronze age Pontic steppe samples from many different sites with calls in key pigmentation SNPs. 90% most defiantly had brown eyes(or maybe some grey). Other calls suggest they had pigmentation most similar to modern west Asians. In terms of skin-pigmentation the same is true for EEF, but EEF had more light eyes because of alot of WHG ancestry. We have a pretty good idea what-type of pigmentation both had.

I don't think we can associate the change in pigmentation in Europe in the last 6,000 years with one genetic group(like Yamna-types) but that it was more of a gradual change that involved many different and related people.

If anyone though it can be associated with the Yamna-types and later CWC and BB-types.

 

[Angela]

We have over 50 Eneolithic-bronze age Pontic steppe samples from many different sites with calls in key pigmentation SNPs. 90% most defiantly had brown eyes(or maybe some grey). Other calls suggest they had pigmentation most similar to modern west Asians. In terms of skin-pigmentation the same is true for EEF, but EEF had more light eyes because of alot of WHG ancestry. We have a pretty good idea what-type of pigmentation both had.

I don't think we can associate the change in pigmentation in Europe in the last 6,000 years with one genetic group(like Yamna-types) but that it was more of a gradual change that involved many different and related people.

If anyone though it can be associated with the Yamna-types and later CWC and BB-types.

I agree with most of that; certainly they seem to have been dark eyed and mostly dark haired. However, in terms of skin pigmentation I'm not sure they would have been modern "West Asian" like, which is in any case a subjective judgment. There are fairer and darker West Asians. It would be more clear if they had tested for SLC24A5 as well as SLC45A2, and other snps as well, since pigmentation is polygenic. For other readers, see Sandra Wilde et al 2014
http://www.pnas.org/lens/pnas/111/13/4832

In the first figure of the supplement there is a list of the specific sites from which the samples were taken, their mtDna information, and the pigmentation snp results.
www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2014/03/05/1316513111.DCSupplemental/pnas.201316513SI.pdfhttp://www.pnas.org/lens/pnas/111/13/4832



Ed. Sorry, it's not legible. People will have to go to the link.

 

[Fire Haired14]

I agree with most of that; certainly they seem to have been dark eyed, and mostly dark haired. However, in terms of skin pigmentation I'm not sure they would have been modern "West Asian" like, which is in any case a subjective judgment. There are fairer and darker West Asians. It would be more clear if they had tested for SLC24A5 as well as SLC45A2 and other snps as well, since pigmentation is polygenic. For other readers, see Sandra Wilde et al 2014
http://www.pnas.org/lens/pnas/111/13/4832

Yes, we may never know exactly what they looked like but it can't be random most both EEF and Yamna samples lack mutations associated with light skin in modern Europe. Remember even the 4,000YBP Pole had "dark complexion", something's going on. Looking at it from a world or west Eurasian view it is very strange that so many north Euros have yellow hair, and it makes sense this is a recent phenomenon. 5,000YBP most of the ancestors of north Euros(mostly Yamna and EEF) probably had similar pigmentation as west Asians and or south Europeans.

rs16891982 and rs1042602 are the two skin-color related SNPs in Hirisplex that Euros and west Asians differ the most in. Looking at ancient DNA Yamna and EEF are just like west Asians in terms of those two SNPs. Whatever diversity in skin color west Asians have Yamna and EEF may have also had it. Bronze age Euro samples are more similar to modern Euros in terms of those SNPs. I suspect those two SNPs are key to understanding why west Asians and Europeans have different skin color. Sardinians have the lowest amount of derived alleles in rs16891982 in Europe and could easily pass as west Asian.

 

[LeBrok]

Wait...So are you saying that when the authors of the Haak et al paper say that the "Yamnaya" people were half "Armenian like", they're only ta;king about the people of the eastern steppe who then became the Indo-Iranians? Z2103 is also present in the Balkans, southern Italy, Anatolia, etc.

I ask because I thought you were proposing that the Yamnaya people didn't have a big chunk of the orange component.

I think the difference between West and East Yamnaya is shown in Corded Ware people. Corded Ware being descendents of West Yamnaya. West Yamnaya being a mixture of Yamnaya + Cucuteni. The orange in Corded Ware is from Cucuteni farmers. The mixing of Yamnaya and Cucuteni is attested by archeology, therefore it is safe to conclude that early neolithic farming admixture/orange came from Cucuteni farmers from Balkans. I believe they got some more farming genetic package from Armenian side admixture, the dark green. So they were more of farmers that 20% of orange could represent.

The East Yamnaya folks with less farming genes and more hunter gatherer/herders admixture,and a lot of R2013, fit better the horse back herders, Indo Iranian scenario, migrating to the East, then around caspian sea into the Middle East, and later some of them trickling down into the Balkans.

The 50% Armenian admixture, which I called Ancient Caucasian Admixture, muches the best of distribution of known Caucasian admixture, maybe with some West Asian in it. It took part in spreading farming, being part of EEF package. But it also has a strong presence in East Europe, matching ruffly Yamnaya/Corded Ware spread.

This Ancient Caucasus/Kostenki14/half Armenian signal can't be Gedrosia. We know that it was very strong in Yamnaya and Corded, and it would took a lot of explaining why isn't it present now in Eastern Europe, even at noise level.

 

[motzart]

You can't know anything about pigmentation from a handful of samples. Even within a same family eye and hair colour can very tremendously.

Unetice samples obviously had less Yamna admixture than the Corded Ware or Bell Beaker since Unetice is more recent, and therefore more admixed with indigenous populations (such as I2).

If you think that three I2 samples mean that all Unetice people were I2, you shouldn't be writing on this forum (or anywhere for that matter) as you don't understand the first thing about population genetics.

Anyway, I don't understand your reply. I didn't say that I predicted that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians or that Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. I was asking Fire Haired14 if he had predicted that on Eurogenes, as he was claiming that the Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly as he predicted.

Nice to see that your counter argument is anecdotal and an ad hominem. Perfect example of the childish attitude and willful ignorance that is your answer to the mountain of data that directly contradicts all of your batshit crazy theories. Also exemplary of why I never bother to put antany effort into anything I post here if I even bother at all. Good luck with trying to spin your Indo European ubermensch yarn, its only going to get more difficult as the data grows.

 

[Yetos]

yo guys,

I heard william Parkinson finished his research in Diros project,
I know DNA tests have been done,
does anyone found a summary or a result?
I am searching 2 weeks now

 

[Aberdeen]

Nice to see that your counter argument is anecdotal and an ad hominem. Perfect example of the childish attitude and willful ignorance that is your answer to the mountain of data that directly contradicts all of your batshit crazy theories. Also exemplary of why I never bother to put antany effort into anything I post here if I even bother at all. Good luck with trying to spin your Indo European ubermensch yarn, its only going to get more difficult as the data grows.

If you intend to continue being so childish and so rude to our host, could you at least conceal your national identity? You're an embarrassment to our country.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I do think that this "Armenian like" component is from southwest Asia if that definition includes not only the Levant but also adjacent areas involved in the genesis of the "Neolithic" package, ie. the domestication of animals as well as plants, and is distinguished from the more specialized "Southwest Asian" of, for example, the Dodecad calculators.
See:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

What I meant is that as the Neolithic farmers moved into areas like the Caucasus and/or Iran, they probably did admix with another group, as the ones who moved into Europe at some point mixed with WHG or a related population. Somehow a South Asian signal was incorporated which may be ANE related in addition to ANE from perhaps another source? The whole relationship of ANE to South Asian populations requires a lot more clarification.

See this Dienekes post:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

Also, as to the existence of a specific Caucasus group separate from the farmers in Anatolia (and ultimately EEF), I think we need to incorporate the data on Kostenki, who after all lived not so far away. According to
Eske Willerslev he was Basal Eurasian, which of course is a major component of ENF and EEF .
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/11/genome-of-kostenki-14-upper-paleolithic.html

I mentioned SW Asia in the first place and not just the Fertile Crescent
Acording to the book 'First Migrants' by Peter Bellwood, farming started 11500 years ago, but expansion beyond the fertile crescent started only 9000 years ago
West to Europe, east till Pakistan (Indus Valley)
He says 8500 years ago there was an expansion till western Armenia, but not beyond, so not to Transcaucasia
So there was space room lest for other tribes south of the Caucasus
As we now know expansion to Europe was mainly G2a2, but they also picked up other tribes along the way.
IMO the frist farmers in the Fertile Crescent were not G2a2, I would guess J2a, and these people also expanded eastwarts, probably just like G2a2 picking up other tribes on the way
Maykop seems to be associated with the Uruk expansion 6-5000 years ago.
Question is where Maykop R1b-M269 and R1b-M73 crossing the Caucasus or where these tribes allready on the steppe before that and did they get admixed with Maykop people north of the Caucasus before the 1st expansion of IE. (In the 2nd case, who were the Maykop people then?)

 

[holderlin]

Nice to see that your counter argument is anecdotal and an ad hominem. Perfect example of the childish attitude and willful ignorance that is your answer to the mountain of data that directly contradicts all of your batshit crazy theories. Also exemplary of why I never bother to put antany effort into anything I post here if I even bother at all. Good luck with trying to spin your Indo European ubermensch yarn, its only going to get more difficult as the data grows.

Damn
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

 

[Robert6]

Wait...So are you saying that when the authors of the Haak et al paper say that the "Yamnaya" people were half "Armenian like", they're only ta;king about the people of the eastern steppe who then became the Indo-Iranians? Z2103 is also present in the Balkans, southern Italy, Anatolia, etc.

I ask because I thought you were proposing that the Yamnaya people didn't have a big chunk of the orange component.

I think that the early Kurgan people(Leila-Tepe Maykop and Kurganized Yamna) had Satem languages
Albanians + Armenians have many Z2103 and Albanians + Armenians are Satem.
Kurgan people invaded the Europe but didn't change the Languages.
Like the Satem, Sarmatians Alanians and European Huns(with Leto-Slavic or Iranian words "Med" "Strava" etc)
also invaded the Europe but didn't change the Languages


But Satem languages existed before the Kurgan people.
The ancestor cultures to Kurgan cultures are Gawra Ubaid Samarra(not to be confused to Samara) and Halaf, all four cultures were in Mesopotamia-Syria.
There is Euphratian substratum in Sumerian.
Euphratian languages possibly were IE, and possibly were ancestors of Satem languages.
Luvian languages were Satem according to some scholars, while the Hittite "newcomer" from Europe was Kentum.