Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

Unless there is a mistake in the K=20 data, it means that all the WHG (like in Motala and La Brana) has now become extinct in modern Europeans (who are a mix of Yamna and EEF).

Exactly. However, all cultures *following* Corded Ware do show WHG admixture. The article even clearly states that a resurge happened. Also it states that modern Europeans could be explained as half Neolithic with a WHG resurge and half Yamnaya. So did that part of WHG go extinct in the Bronze or Iron age?

Even stranger is the fact that Swedish HG show no affinity *at all* to EHG nor to American Indians. However, we know some had quite some ANE admixture. But Loschbourg actually *does* have a tad EHG as well as a tad EEF. The latter would probably mean that a part of EEF actually is connected to Loschbourg. Let's assume that WHG contributed locally to the newly arrived farmers that would make sense. Stuttgart is far closer to Luxembourg than to North Spain or Sweden. It could even explain how Stuttgart got a part EHG. But where did the Caucasus part of Stuttgart come from?

There is a blogpost at Fennoscandia where it's explained that La Brana actually left quite some traces to Basques and Sardianians. Why doesn't that show up in K=20 here?

http://fennoscandia.blogspot.no/2014/03/la-brana-1-closest-to-basque-sardinians.html

What is odd is that from K=16 to K=19 Yamna looks half EHG (deep blue) and half Caucasian-Gedrosian (greyish green), but in K=20 Yamna suddenly becomes 80% EHG (sometimes with some WHG) and only 20% Caucasian-Gedrosian.

Yes, a thing that also happens in the ADMIXTURE runs of the first Lazardis paper. That's why I wonder if I really understand how this works.
 
If we look at how much Y DNA there is in eastern and central Europe that isn't R1a or R1b, and think about the survival of non-IE languages into the historic period, the idea of such massive population replacement by Indo-Europeans doesn't make sense to me. And if we're talking about massive migrations out of the steppe, why is R1b so much more prevalent in western Europe than in eastern Europe, and why different subclades than found at Samara.

I think the authors of this paper have proven two things; that R1b had a very wide spread distribution across Europe more than 7000 years ago and that it's possible to reach some really erroneous conclusions using PCA charts.

Still not one Iberian BB Y DNA result.
 
Yes, great results. Never expected such a confirmation of my theories. No R1a in Yamnaya, so there's still no evidence that R1a-Z93 in Iranic folks is from Yamnaya or the Pontic-Caspian Steppes in general. I knew it, but didn't expect that they would find Anatolian (Armenian, West Iranic) R1b in Yamnaya. R1b in Yamnaya is Anatolia, which again is a great indication that Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is right about his Armenian hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis . The latest results are victory for Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze! It's true that Indo-Europeans in Europe came from Yamnaya. But folks from NorthWest Asia (from Maykop) Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. I was telling this all the time. Indo-Europeanization occured in stages. Best news for me is that R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And this fact is making my thoughts even stronger!
 
Yes, great results. Never expected such a confirmation of my theories. No R1a in Yamnaya, so there's still no evidence that R1a-Z93 in Iranic folks is from Yamnaya or the Pontic-Caspian Steppes in general. I knew it, but didn't expect that they would find Anatolian (Armenian, West Iranic) R1b in Yamnaya. R1b in Yamnaya is Anatolia, which again is a great indication that Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is right about his Armenian hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis . The latest results are victory for Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze! It's true that Indo-Europeans in Europe came from Yamnaya. But folks from NorthWest Asia (from Maykop) Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. I was telling this all the time. Indo-Europeanization occured in stages. Best news for me is that R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And this fact is making my thoughts even stronger!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.
No, they found R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya, and R1b-Z2103 is native to Anatolia area (very common among Armenians and West Iranic people)
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.
The Hunter R1b1a in Samara region show that Yamna was Kurganized(Indo-Europeanized) culture,
Leila-Tepe had Kurgans before the Yamna.
 
No, they found R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya, and R1b-Z2103 is native to Anatolia area (very common among Armenians and West Iranic people)

No, R1b-Z2103 is found in Anatolia, Greece and the Balkans today, but that doesn't mean it appeared there. Not anymore than R1b-L51 appeared in Western Europe.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.

It is possible that R1b-P297 was found all around the Caspian Sea in the Mesolithic/Neolithic, both north and south of the Caucasus.
 
Yes, great results. Never expected such a confirmation of my theories. No R1a in Yamnaya, so there's still no evidence that R1a-Z93 in Iranic folks is from Yamnaya or the Pontic-Caspian Steppes in general. I knew it, but didn't expect that they would find Anatolian (Armenian, West Iranic) R1b in Yamnaya. R1b in Yamnaya is Anatolia, which again is a great indication that Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is right about his Armenian hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis . The latest results are victory for Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze! It's true that Indo-Europeans in Europe came from Yamnaya. But folks from NorthWest Asia (from Maykop) Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. I was telling this all the time. Indo-Europeanization occured in stages. Best news for me is that R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And this fact is making my thoughts even stronger!

R1a-Z93 arose in the Abashevo culture immediately north of Yamna, which spread east and evolved into the Sintashta culture, which in turn expanded to Central Asia with the Andronovo culture. The Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't solely descended from Yamna, but also from the R1a people of the forest-steppe (Corded Ware + Abashevo). Or are you denying that Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian people are Indo-Europeans ?
 
No, R1b-Z2103 is found in Anatolia, Greece and the Balkans today, but that doesn't mean it appeared there. Not anymore than R1b-L51 appeared in Western Europe.
Caucaso-Gedrosian component among R1b (Yamnaya & Anatolian folks) is not from the Balkans, or is it? R1b-Z2103 is full of Caucaso-Gedrosian component, what means it's NATIVE to Anatolia!
 
It is possible that R1b-P297 was found all around the Caspian Sea in the Mesolithic/Neolithic, both north and south of the Caucasus.
But it is not really relevant here. If it's relevant that you folks are measuring with double standards. We can also say that the original R1a is from West Asia, since R1a-M420, oldest clades have been found in West Asia and even ancestral clades to R1a-M17 have been found in West Asia. Maciamo, you telling me all the time that only the RECENT sublaced of R1a* are relevant to Indo-European question. Same can be said about R1b*. We have even got an African R1b. What is relevant is the modern clades of R1b. And now we have found direct links and evidences between Anatolia (Maykop) and Yamnaya. There is an Anatolian R1b in Yamnaya, there's an Anatolian auDNA (Caucaso-Gedrosian) in Yamnaya. What do we have need more? Case solved!
 
R1a-Z93 arose in the Abashevo culture immediately north of Yamna, which spread east and evolved into the Sintashta culture, which in turn expanded to Central Asia with the Andronovo culture. The Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't solely descended from Yamna, but also from the R1a people of the forest-steppe (Corded Ware + Abashevo). Or are you denying that Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian people are Indo-Europeans ?
There's no evidence at ALL that R1a-Z93 arose in Abashevo. It can be from BMAC or the Iranian Plateau (area between Zagros and BMAC). Balto-Slavic people are NOT the same as Iranic people. True, that Balto-Slaic, Indic and Iranic languages are Satem, but there's no proof that they share direct common ancestors. 1) Iranic people belong to a very different R1a subclade which is absent in Europe. Balto-Slavic people are Z280, while Iranic people are Z93. People found acentral clades of Z93 in West Asia and NOT in Europe. 2) (West) Iranic people live not far from the Armenian people and also in a R1b-Z2103 rich region, maybe Iranic people picked up their language from R1b-Z2103 folks, ha ? Maybe R1b-Z2103 folks picked Indo-European language from R1a-S224 just south of the Caspian Sea.
 
Seems like most R1b is Z2103 after all. This is the Western Asian variant. But there was also a l25 (modern European variant).
One R1a found in the forrest zone.
But still thats not enough data to take any conclusions because it is said that all the R1b were from one single Samarra valley.


One thing however is true. Maciamo was right with his theory aft all

If we look at the Neolithic m343 in Spain, we can come to the conclusion that R1b reached Europe with a dual source.
First from North Mesopotamia to Maykop and from Maykopt to the Steppes. A second one directly from Mesopotamia to Spain?
This fits Maciamos theory that R1b was in the southern Steppe region of Yamna while R1a more in the Forrest Region.


The paper says this is the proof that some of the Indo European languages reached Europe through Yamna. What makes me wonder if they are not able to explain the Indo European expansion as a whole with the Yamna expansion. Also it says the Anatolian Neolithic expansion lost strongly on weight ( I was never a fan of this theory anyways) but the possibility of the pastrolasit origin from North Mesopotamia/North West Iran and South Caucasus has risen once again.

So the question isn't if Yamna was Indo European (They were without a doubt), but if it's linguistic forefather came with their pastoralist ancestors or not.
 
I always wondered why ....If R1a and R1b are the same age , why is western european heavily R1b and eastern europe R1a .........clearly R1b was settling europe and r1a was lollying around in the steppe.

what about T1a in Karsdorf...........now that a turnup


And even more interesting that this T1a was allmost as much Yamna like as CW is.

Makes me wonder if this was not a very early Yamna dude who has reached mainland Europe before the other.
 
The ADMIXTURE graph is very odd. Maybe I don't understand well how ADMIXTURE works but at K=20 all WHG seems to disappear from current day European population and looks like being replaced by Yamnaya/EHG ancestry. That, we can proof is wrong. You see, all LN cultures that followed Corded Ware, in other words that followed the Yamnaya invasion, had substantial amount of the WHG (it's the grey part, which make up 100% of Swedish HG and also La Brana). So how could part not pop up in current day Europeans?

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/02/10/013433.DC1/013433-1.pdf


EDIT: Furthermore, Stuttgart is very odd in K=20. She has mostly EHG/Yamnaya admixture and a tad Caucasian.


Wait what? When I look at the graphs. groups such as the Lithuanians with ~50% have suddenly only ~25% WHG while the rest gets eaten up by Yamna.

Doesn't seem to me so odd at all.
 
Caucaso-Gedrosian component among R1b (Yamnaya & Anatolian folks) is not from the Balkans, or is it? R1b-Z2103 is full of Caucaso-Gedrosian component, what means it's NATIVE to Anatolia!
Goga R1b Z2103 has different branches CTS 7822 some not found around Kurdish region unlike L584 and L277 and also remember earliest sample of basal R** is Malta somewhere in North are ancestors come from R1a R1b
http://www.nature.com/news/americas-natives-have-european-roots-1.14213

10mkmxv.png
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Goga R1b Z2103 has different branches CTS 7822 some not found around Kurdish region unlike L584 and L277 and also remember earliest sample of basal R** is Malta somewhere in North are ancestors come from R1a R1b
http://www.nature.com/news/americas-natives-have-european-roots-1.14213

10mkmxv.png
I think it is from Azerbaijan (NorthWest Iran) where Leyla-Tepe is located. R1b-Z2103 could enter the Balkans through Greece from Western Turkey. My friend, I never said that R1b-Z2103 is from Kurdish region, I think it's from south of the Caspian Sea, Iranian Azerbaijan region...
 
From the data we have it appears like Yamna was

closest to

1. Mordovians
2. Lezgins
 
and also remember earliest sample of basal R** is Malta somewhere in North are ancestors come from R1a R1b
Yeah, R* has somewhere from the same region where also Q* is evolved, homeland of Y-DNA hg. P. But this happened a long, long time ago..
 
Goga there was a R1a among the Yamna in the forrest zone.
 

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