Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

bicicleur said:
H is paleolithic in India
H started to split very early , more than 40.000 years ago , and all subclades are present in India
so it is very unlikely that H brougth farming to India
it is very likely tough that once farming was introduced in the Indus valley, subclades of H helped to spread farming further south
the people who spread farming further south were the Dravidians
Click to expand...


Thats actually what I meant, if you look at my post I edited it. With some of Haplogroup H I meant some subclades of H might have been brought to India via farmers.


@Robert

I remember reading several times rumors that H was found in Syrian neolithic but people thought it must be wrong because no one was expecting H.
 
If you look at the chart on page 25, the division is very clear. The orange is Neolithic Farmer, although I don't know if it's exactly the same as the component in the prior Lazardis paper. Here, the standard is Starcevo and LBKT, and thus Stuttgart shows a little WHG, as does the Spanish early Neolithic. Still, it's Early Neolithic Farmer in Europe and EEF is the closest term, as Alan pointed out above. The blue is, of course, WHG, based on Loschbour. The green is Yamnaya. That component is not based on the R1b1 hunter gatherer who was so similar to the R1a1 hunter gatherer but who was, indeed, found in the Samara Valley. The green Yamnaya component is based on the later and downstream R1b samples from Yamnaya, and thus autosomally are half Eastern Hunter Gatherer and half "Near Eastern". I agree with Alan that this is the "West Asian" component that Dienekes has been chasing all these years. In my opinion, however, it should not be seen as some totally foreign component. I think they could have extracted the majority EEF like component.
Haak-et-al.-2015-Figure-3.png


(Alan is also right that ENF has no place in the discussion. That is a component found through modeling by Eurogenes. It is not, unlike these components, based on an ancient set of genomes.)

It's interesting that a little sliver of Yamnaya made it into the Gamba samples. You can also see how the blue WHG component made something of a comeback in the MN of Germany. Obviously, that didn't happen in other areas. Then there's the big explosion of it with Corded Ware, and lower levels in Bell Beaker.

There are all sorts of questions that arise as to why individual groups have their own particular set of percentages, as well. The Greeks (I believe the samples were taken in a northern part of the mainland) and the Albanians, for instance, why do they have less Yamnaya, when in addition to what might have come originally, they were invaded by Slavic speaking tribes who would have carried some with them? Also, why do they have more WHG than their immediate neighbors? The PCA is also interesting:

The PCA is also interesting:
View attachment 7074
You can see how the later Yamnaya samples cluster right between the EHGs and the Near Easterners.

Does anyone know, by the way, where the authors talk about the percentage of population replacement in the south?
 
Alan said:
the reason why Reich used the notion "Armenian like" is because
Armenians speak a Indo European language, and he wanted to indicate that their is a high possibility that the Indo European language was brought to Yamna actually from there.

From what I heard from other Users, there are other groups as well fitting as Armenians. This is why they used "Armenian like". Undoubtley half of Armenian ancestry probably came with the Phrygians.

This "Armenian like" population which contributed to Yamna must have been a nowadays died out population who have contributed into the ethnogenesis of Armenians, as well others of the region.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about their motivations but these are some of the good "fits" for Yamnaya.
52% Iraqui Jews + 48% Karelia
47% Armenian + 53% Karelia
 
Someone has helpfully provided the actual percentages for the European populations in terms of EN (European Neolithic Farmers), WesternHunterGatherers (old WHG or pre-the Yamnaya migrations) and Yamnaya.
(For those interested in the breakdown, Yamnaya would be very roughly 1/4 WHG like, 1/4 ANE like, and half "Armenian like". )


Norway - 30, 16, 54
Lithuania - 18, 30, 52
Estonia - 12, 37, 51
Iceland - 32, 19, 49
Scotland - 28, 23, 49
Czech - 35, 16, 49
Belarus - 25, 28, 47
Hungary - 39, 16, 45
Ukraine - 28, 27, 44
England - 44, 14, 42
Orkney - 34, 25, 41
South French - 57, 4, 39
Croatia - 44, 17, 37
French - 51, 12, 37
North Spanish - 59, 10, 31
Bulgaria - 55, 14, 31
Tuscany - 72, 0, 28
Basque - 54, 19, 27
Bergamo - 63, 13, 24
Spain - 78, 0, 22
Greece - 66, 14, 20
Albania - 65, 18, 17
Sardinia - 88, 7, 5

Stuttgart - 94, 6, 0
Bell Beaker - 38, 16, 46
Unetice - 24, 33, 43
Corded Ware - 17, 4, 79
 
I think the Yamna component, just like WHG, will be revised after data north of the Black Sea in Ukraine comes along, as some of these percentages don't make sense. How could Albania have more WHG than France, Spain, England when the Loschbour cavemen was found in Western Europe? Maybe they're mixing up WHG with Yamnaya (who have EHG = ANE + WHG). I think Western Yamnaya will be different than Samara. (Sorry for my ignorance if I miss anything, as I haven't looked at the admixtures in detail)
 
Klyosov commented: http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=31366#.VN6CYp2G9g0
"... the IE speakers (R1a) arrived in the Balkans and further in Europe between the 10th - 8th millennia bp. Gimbutas’ theory is in error when it proposes the formation of territorial, nomadic, pastoral populations speaking PIE languages (collectively named the Kurgan culture), in the 7th millennium bp in the area of the Dnepr and Don basins, the middle and lower Volga basin, the Caucasus and the Ural mountains. In fact, there were no PIEs (R1a) at those times in those territories. The Kurgan theory apparently has inverted the roles of the NIE (R1b) and the IE (R1a). Instead, these cultural features should be ascribed to NIEs (R1b) who migrated westward. Gimbutas claims that IE speakers migrated to Europe three times--first, between 6400 and 6300 ybp; second, around 5500 ybp (from the area North of the Black Sea); third, between 5000 and 4800 ybp (allegedly from the Volga steppes). These claims are unsupportable. There were no IEs (R1a) in the Volga steppes between 5000 and 4800 ybp or earlier; they arrived between 4600 and 4300 ybp. Had they been in the steppes, they would have been moving from Europe eastward."
Click to expand...

But how does Klyosov know that R1b were Non-IE speakers ??? This is just an assumption - based on what?

This steppe data confirms that R1b (or at least some of them) were IE speakers, and so were R1a (or at least some of them).
there were no PIEs (R1a) at those times in those territories.
Click to expand...
Just because they did not find R1a in 7 Samara burials (very localized), doesn't mean they were not there.

We have 9 x R1a in Andronovo (which is descended from Yamna) and 4 x R1a in Corded Ware (also descended from Yamna).

So logically there should be some R1a among Yamnaya as well, just not among those 7 x R1b from Samara.

=============================

When it comes to that Non-IE, Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs in north-eastern Spain:

The problem with that R1b from Spain is that it tests negative on P297 mutation, which means that this guy was NOT ancestor of great majority of modern European R1b (which is P297+). On the other hand, hunter-gatherer from Samara (6th millenium BC) tests positive on this mutation.

Here is a map of types of Neolithic and Mesolithic Y-DNA discovered in Europe to date:

Neolithic.png
 
Tomenable said:
Klyosov commented: http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=31366#.VN6CYp2G9g0



But how does Klyosov know that R1b were Non-IE speakers ??? This is just an assumption - based on what?

This steppe data confirms that R1b (or at least some of them) were IE speakers, and so were R1a (or at least some of them).


Just because they did not find R1a in 7 Samara burials (very localized), doesn't mean they were not there.

We have 9 x R1a in Andronovo (which is descended from Yamna) and 4 x R1a in Corded Ware (also descended from Yamna).

So logically there should be some R1a among Yamnaya as well, just not among those 7 x R1b from Samara.

=============================

When it comes to that Non-IE, Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs in north-eastern Spain:

The problem with that R1b from Spain is that it tests negative on P297 mutation, which means that this guy was NOT ancestor of great majority of modern European R1b (which is P297+). On the other hand, hunter-gatherer from Samara (6th millenium BC) tests positive on this mutation.

Here is a map of types of Neolithic and Mesolithic Y-DNA discovered in Europe to date:

Neolithic.png
Click to expand...



thanks for map

maybe you should place ages on any that are over 5000 years like the R1a and R1b

here is the others

G2a in germany = 5206 to 5052

T1a in germany = 5207 to 5070

H2 in hungaria = 5710 to 5500

R1b in spain = 5178 to 5066
 
Angela said:
Someone has helpfully provided the actual percentages for the European populations in terms of EN (European Neolithic Farmers), WesternHunterGatherers (old WHG or pre-the Yamnaya migrations) and Yamnaya.
(For those interested in the breakdown, Yamnaya would be very roughly 1/4 WHG like, 1/4 ANE like, and half "Armenian like". )
Click to expand...

basically what you and I said ~30% ANE/ ~25-30% WHG / ~40% ENF

The thing is the orange component is EEF and differs from the "ENF" in Yamna in that way, that it is the first appearance of the West Asian type. While EEF is WHG admixed (~20%), the farmer DNA in Yamna is ANE admixed. 70% ENF + 30% ANE that is what made the "West Asian" component.


In other words.

Early European Farmer (EEF)= ~80% Proto-Farmer (ENF) + 20% WHG

Caucasus_Gedrosia aka "West Asian= ~70% Proto-Farmer (or possibly even EEF itself) + 30% ANE
 
Last edited:
And to the question about R1a*.

Don't forget all the samples of Yamna were from one valley in Samarra. If we take a look at cultures descend of Yamna, such as Andronovo, Corded Ware. And even some ancient Indo Europeans such as Tocharians. There is absolutely no doubt that R1a will pop up in Yamna And I am pretty convinced allot of other Haplogroups will pop up also.

Be not suprised if in some regions closer to North Caucasus yDNA T, J and few other pop up.

Isn't there even allot of T* in some modern Uralic speakers in the region?
 
Alan said:
And to the question about R1a*.

Don't forget all the samples of Yamna were from one valley in Samarra. If we take a look at cultures descend of Yamna, such as Andronovo, Corded Ware. And even some ancient Indo Europeans such as Tocharians. There is absolutely no doubt that R1a will pop up in Yamna And I am pretty convinced allot of other Haplogroups will pop up also.

Be not suprised if in some regions closer to North Caucasus yDNA T, J and few other pop up.

Isn't there even allot of T* in some modern Uralic speakers in the region?
Click to expand...

the T is in

M. A. Gubina et al, "Haplotype Diversity in mtDNA and Y�Chromosome in Populations of Altai–Sayan Region," "Russian Journal of Genetics," (2012),

Kazakhs in Kosh-Agachski Raion found 19/49 at 38.8%

Kazkhs announed IIRC that they where Kazakhs in the year 1490...prior to this they where under the Uzbek banner.........really I am usure who or what is a true Kazakh
 
Sile said:
his post #206 stated...no H in europe befor ethe 16th century
Click to expand...


So u were mistaken, would have been good to admit it

There is not a single ancient Y DNA from the Balkans.

Thrachians do not live in Hungary

F* is not H( and even if it is, it is not Thrachian and from the Balkans), it has nothing to do with Gypsies, it is just Balkans are not tested and u were spreading fake info :)
 
Sile said:
the T is in

M. A. Gubina et al, "Haplotype Diversity in mtDNA and Y�Chromosome in Populations of Altai–Sayan Region," "Russian Journal of Genetics," (2012),

Kazakhs inKosh-Agachski Raion found 19/49 at 38.8%

Kazkhs announed IIRC that they where Kazakhs in the year 1490...prior to this they where under the Uzbek banner.........really I am usure who or what is a true Kazakh
Click to expand...

All this region was once Indo_Iranian speaking. Either Turks themselves are "altaified" Irano_Aryans OR they are Altains who mixed and replaced them.
 
Yaan said:
Thrachians do not live in Hungary
Click to expand...

The Thracians lived almost everywhere,including the eastern half of Hungary,Slovakia, Carpathian Poland or parts of Ukraine;
though,it is quite clear that the Bulgarian ones are the true stars.

See the article from pg.167(and an interesting map at 181):

http://www.academia.edu/823512/H._C...ibliotheca_Musei_Apulensis_1_Alba_Iulia_1994_


For chariotry and Mnogovalikovaya(also named Babino), see Kuzmina's article:

http://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j...qLQQS29ISm28h1Q&bvm=bv.85970519,d.d24&cad=rja

http://www.academia.edu/7837844/Balkan_Pit_Sanctuaries_-_Retheorizing_the_archaeology_of_Religion


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-cordoned_ware_culture
 
Diurpaneus said:
The Thracians lived almost everywhere,including the eastern half of Hungary,Slovakia, Carpathian Poland or parts of Ukraine;
though,it is quite clear that the Bulgarian ones are the true stars.

See the article from pg.167(and an interesting map at 181):

http://www.academia.edu/823512/H._C...ibliotheca_Musei_Apulensis_1_Alba_Iulia_1994_


For chariotry and Mnogovalikovaya(also named Babino), see Kuzmina's article:

http://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j...qLQQS29ISm28h1Q&bvm=bv.85970519,d.d24&cad=rja

http://www.academia.edu/7837844/Balkan_Pit_Sanctuaries_-_Retheorizing_the_archaeology_of_Religion


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-cordoned_ware_culture
Click to expand...

There was never Thrachians civilization outside the Balkan( and to a lesser extend Anatolia) :) I hope they will test for male lines remains fro Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and North Greece, this is what was the Thrachian core :)
 
Corded Ware individual I0104, age 2473 - 2348 BCE, is M417 - which is ancestral to 99% of modern R1a (including Z93 and CTS 4385).

He lived 4350 - 4500 years ago. And according to Underhill 2014, the R-M417 has an estimated TMRCA of 4800 - 6800 years ago, average of 5000.

While according to Haak 2015 it has an estiated TMRCA of 5800 years ago.

Anyway, our M417 from Corded Ware lived between 300 and 2500 years after the common ancestor of 99% of modern R1a.

Moreover, that hunter-gatherer from Karelia from 7000 - 7500 years ago (5000 - 5500 BCE) is ancestral to M417 !!!

So it seems very probable that common ancestor for 99% of all R1a lived in Europe somewhere between Finland-Russia and East Germany.

Let's also check Y-DNA from steppe / nomadic cultures, discovered to date:

Yamnaya - R1b
=============
Corded Ware - R1a
Tocharians - R1a (and Tocharian R1a is M417, but not Z93)
Andronovo - R1a
Scythians - R1a
 
Gentlemen, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting very tired of this chest beating for one ydna haplogroup over another, especially in the R1a versus R1b divisional championships. Did any of you get into this because of intellectual curiosity, or is it just about ethnic rivalry?

Europe didn't exist as a concept in these times. The line between Europe and Asia wasn't always drawn at the Urals. Anyway, who cares on what side of some imaginary line some samples were found? I'm sure they roamed the whole steppe.

I mean, it's getting ridiculous. First the Ancient North Eurasians suddenly became Europeans. Then, when it seemed R1 developed in Siberia, that suddenly became Europe. Basal R couldn't have developed in Central or Central/South Asia, even though that's what some academics have said, because then it wouldn't be European. So, it had to develop in "Russia". Never mind that we don't KNOW that yet. If all else fails, then let's just say that R1a and R1b happened to have most of their camps on the west of the Urals, so that definitely makes them European.

Do people have so little self awareness that they don't see the flaws in this kind of reasoning? Enough.
 
The questions on R1 for the paper is or should be said

1 - R1a/b where once just R1, where is origin

2 - Yamnya as per paper is R1b, did R1a reside north or east of this area

3 - If they ( R1a and R1b ) where together in yamnya at the same time and they migrated westerly into Europe, then why is there no equal % of these 2 big haplotypes in western Europe?


If I had to make a call, I say R1b was earlier into Yamnya than R1a which concludes that R1 origins where further East, maybe SW China..............we know by Karafet 2014 paper than R origins is SE Asia
 
Tomenable said:
Klyosov commented: http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=31366#.VN6CYp2G9g0



But how does Klyosov know that R1b were Non-IE speakers ??? This is just an assumption - based on what?

This steppe data confirms that R1b (or at least some of them) were IE speakers, and so were R1a (or at least some of them).


Just because they did not find R1a in 7 Samara burials (very localized), doesn't mean they were not there.

We have 9 x R1a in Andronovo (which is descended from Yamna) and 4 x R1a in Corded Ware (also descended from Yamna).

So logically there should be some R1a among Yamnaya as well, just not among those 7 x R1b from Samara.

=============================

When it comes to that Non-IE, Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs in north-eastern Spain:

The problem with that R1b from Spain is that it tests negative on P297 mutation, which means that this guy was NOT ancestor of great majority of modern European R1b (which is P297+). On the other hand, hunter-gatherer from Samara (6th millenium BC) tests positive on this mutation.

Here is a map of types of Neolithic and Mesolithic Y-DNA discovered in Europe to date:

Neolithic.png
Click to expand...



you missed oetzi on your map...........exactly same time frame as the G2a in germany ( on your map )
 
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