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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Its here

    5000 B.C. R1b1 in Spain. I think this is rewriting everything. All of the Yamnaya R1b.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    So, Yamnaya is indeed R1b and R1a is probably forest steppe. No wonder they waffled and said that Corded Ware was 75% of a population "related" to Yamnaya. Not only that, but Yamnaya is R1b M-269. The Samara hunter gatherer is earlier R1b. That's more of a surprise.

    What's really interesting is that at the same time they have found an R1b1 among early Neolithic samples from Spain. If M-269 is on the steppe then is "modern" European R1b Yamnaya derived and the R1b1 from Spain was a dead end?

    Did R1b really have that big a range, or did the earliest clades just straddle the whole Caucasus area, and so some of it got picked up in the Neolithic migrations?

    A related question is what's the source of the "Near Eastern" ancestry?

    I better get back to reading. Just wanted to give everybody a head's up, although Motzart beat me to it.


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    The R1b in the Yamnaya is all Z2103, not ancestral to Western European R1b. That means R1b spread into Europe PRIOR the existence of the Yamnaya. So many people were right and yet so wrong, credit to Maciamo for getting the routes and the geography right, but he was so far off on the dates.

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    Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

    Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe (Haak et al. 2015 preprint)

    I don't know people are discussing this already on other threads, but whatever I think it's start to start a thread dedicated to it. I'v skimmed through it and I can already see there are a lot of surprising Y DNA. Such as R1b1 from Neolithic Spain, R*(xdeep R1b and R1a clades) from Neolithic Germany, all Mesolithic Russians had R1a and R1b, all Y DNA from Yamna is R1b-L23(mostly Z2103 not western L51), derived I2a1b clades all over Neolithic Europe, and T1a from Neolithic Europe.

    I have not looked at the Y SNP calls of samples yet. It appears the origin of R1b-L11 and R1a-Z282 the most popular paternal lineages in Europe today, are begging to be resolved with ancient Y DNA.

    I like seeing my own lineage and the lineage of over 50% of modern west Europeans R1b-P312 in Bell Beaker Germany 4,5000YBP.

    A big congrats to Maciamo and others for predicting R1b-M269 existed in Yamna some 5-10 years ago. It must feel good to finally be confirmed by ancient Y DNA, after debating for so long.

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    I always wondered why ....If R1a and R1b are the same age , why is western european heavily R1b and eastern europe R1a .........clearly R1b was settling europe and r1a was lollying around in the steppe.

    what about T1a in Karsdorf...........now that a turnup
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    As an I2a1 individual I think its high time you all went back to Siberia. You've quite overstayed your welcome.

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    Thanks, looks like we are going to have some fun now. I read it tomorrow.
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    Here are all the Y DNA results from the study organized.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...zn0kOU91Q/edit

    R1b1* in Mesolithic Karelia and Neolithic Spain, R1a1* in Mesolithic Samara, and R in Neolithic Germany. Pretty amazing.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I couldn't resist, so I stayed longer to check the paper. Massive amount of information to consume, I must say. Guys were working hard, but I'm a little disappointed I must say. I was afraid that all the Yamnaya samples might be from one place, and I was a prophet unfortunately. All sample are from Samara region which is located North of Caspian Sea. It is pretty much North East corner of Yamnaya horizon. This doesn't help to have a gemeral picture of Yamnaya genetics. Just a little sliver of a vast culture.
    My next complaint is about not testing Neolithic farmer population south of Yamnaya. We know these farmers had direct and meaningful genetic effect on Yamnaya, so it baffles me why there is not even one sample from Cucuteni and Varna, or South of Caucasus?
    I hope that this paper will be more interesting that the first impression. I'm going to bed.
    See you tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks, looks like we are going to have some fun now. I read it tomorrow.
    It looks like me and you being Euro R1bs trace our paternal lineage to the bronze age Russian steppe. Something like 40% of Europeans, 20% of west Asians, and 30% of Indians probably trace their father line back to the bronze age Russian steppe. They're the most successful fathers in history.

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    The ADMIXTURE graph is very odd. Maybe I don't understand well how ADMIXTURE works but at K=20 all WHG seems to disappear from current day European population and looks like being replaced by Yamnaya/EHG ancestry. That, we can proof is wrong. You see, all LN cultures that followed Corded Ware, in other words that followed the Yamnaya invasion, had substantial amount of the WHG (it's the grey part, which make up 100% of Swedish HG and also La Brana). So how could part not pop up in current day Europeans?

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/013433-1.pdf


    EDIT: Furthermore, Stuttgart is very odd in K=20. She has mostly EHG/Yamnaya admixture and a tad Caucasian.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    They're the most successful fathers in history.
    I wonder if the mothers have anything to do with it? procreating can be fun, the hard work comes later probably assigned to the female species in many different forms

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    5000 B.C. R1b1 in Spain. I think this is rewriting everything. All of the Yamnaya R1b.
    R1b1* could either be R1b-P25 or R1b-V88. Both are unrelated to Yamnaya. It was tested for V35 and V69, but not for V88.

    If it is R1b-P25 then it would certainly be a remnant of the Mesolithic population. Nowadays R1b-P25 makes up about 1% of the male lineages in western Europe.

    If it is R1b-V88, it would have come from North African Neolithic cattle herders, as I explained many times on the forum and in my Genetic history of Iberia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The ADMIXTURE graph is very odd. Maybe I don't understand well how ADMIXTURE works but at K=20 all WHG seems to disappear from current day European population and looks like being replaced by Yamnaya/EHG ancestry. That, we can proof is wrong. You see, all LN cultures that followed Corded Ware, in other words that followed the Yamnaya invasion, had substantial amount of the WHG (it's the grey part, which make up 100% of Swedish HG and also La Brana). So how could part not pop up in current day Europeans?

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/013433-1.pdf


    EDIT: Furthermore, Stuttgart is very odd in K=20. She has mostly EHG/Yamnaya admixture and a tad Caucasian.
    Keep in mind that only a few individuals were tested and they may not be representative of the whole population of a region at the time. Actually if Yamna people moved to central Europe, chances are that many of them remained ethnically separate from the conquered population, a bit like the Indo-Aryans did in India with the caste system. After all both were Bronze Age Indo-Europeans with a similar language and religion, so they must have also shared similar practices with conquered populations. This means that R1b or R1a "upper castes" from the Corded Ware or Unetice may have been pure Yamna. It's only after several millennia of intermixing with indigenous populations that the modern European admixtures appeared. Apparently the elite remained ethnically distinct in central Europe until the Urnfield period (1300-1200 BCE), when some sort of major cultural upheaval took place (e.g. IE funerary practices introduced cremation for the first time).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I had a quick look at the paper and I am glad to see that a T1a individual was found in the LBK culture, confirming what I had said for years : the Near Eastern Neolithic farmers were predominantly G2a but with J1 and T1a minorities (+ R1b-V88 in North Africa and Iberia).

    The biggest surprise so far is that 4 out of 6 Yamna men tested belonged to the Balkano-Anatolian R1b-Z2103 (the other two were P297 and L23). This may simply be because they are all from the Volga-Ural region. They would therefore have been among the last to move to the Balkans. In contrast, western Yamna people from southern Ukraine would have been the first to move out of the steppe, and that should in theory be where the ancestors of modern Western Europeans came from.

    Here is a table showing the mtDNA of the six R1b Yamna men.

    Sample
    Y-haplogroup
    Mt-haplogroup
    Location
    I0370 R1b-Z2103 H13a1a1 Ishkinovka, Orenburg
    I0429 R1b-Z2103 T2c1a2 Lopatino, Samara
    I0438 R1b-Z2103 U5a1a1 Luzhki, Samara
    I0439 R1b-P297 U5a1a1 Lopatino, Samara
    I0443 R1b-L23 W3a1a Lopatino, Samara
    I0444 R1b-Z2103 H6a1b Kutuluk, Samara


    Female Yamna samples belonged to H2b, K1b2a, U4a1 and W6c.

    I had specifically associated H6, U4a1, U5a1a1, W3 and W6 as being of Indo-European origin.

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    Anyone notice Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly where I and others at Eurogenes expeted? Also, notice WHG is needed to explain modern Europeans not Yamna+EEF, which is also what we have been saying for months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Keep in mind that only a few individuals were tested and they may not be representative of the whole population of a region at the time. Actually if Yamna people moved to central Europe, chances are that many of them remained ethnically separate from the conquered population, a bit like the Indo-Aryans did in India with the caste system. After all both were Bronze Age Indo-Europeans with a similar language and religion, so they must have also shared similar practices with conquered populations. This means that R1b or R1a "upper castes" from the Corded Ware or Unetice may have been pure Yamna. It's only after several millennia of intermixing with indigenous populations that the modern European admixtures appeared. Apparently the elite remained ethnically distinct in central Europe until the Urnfield period (1300-1200 BCE), when some sort of major cultural upheaval took place (e.g. IE funerary practices introduced cremation for the first time).
    But that's not the issue I refer to. The issue is that *current day*, modern, Europeans show *no WHG at all* in K=20, when WHG become a separate instance (Grey). All modern examples only show dark blue, which is a large part of Yamnaya and half of EHG. I simply don't get that and it defies what the article said, that European are half EEF/WHG mix combined with half Yamnaya.

    Where is my grey in the Basques, the English and ze Germans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Anyone notice Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly where I and others at Eurogenes expeted? Also, notice WHG is needed to explain modern Europeans not Yamna+EEF, which is also what we have been saying for months.
    Did you predict that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians ? It makes sense since the Mordovians have one of the highest incidence of red hair and I always sustained that genes of red hair were brought by R1b people (and blond hair by R1a people).

    Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. That's the supposed geographic route followed by R1b Yamna tribes from Ukraine to central Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    But that's not the issue I refer to. The issue is that *current day*, modern, Europeans show *no WHG at all* in K=20, when WHG become a separate instance (Grey). All modern examples only show dark blue, which is a large part of Yamnaya and half of EHG. I simply don't get that and it defies what the article said, that European are half EEF/WHG mix combined with half Yamnaya.

    Where is my grey in the Basques, the English and ze Germans?
    Unless there is a mistake in the K=20 data, it means that all the WHG (like in Motala and La Brana) has now become extinct in modern Europeans (who are a mix of Yamna and EEF).

    What is odd is that from K=16 to K=19 Yamna looks half EHG (deep blue) and half Caucasian-Gedrosian (greyish green), but in K=20 Yamna suddenly becomes 80% EHG (sometimes with some WHG) and only 20% Caucasian-Gedrosian.

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    These are very strange results. I certainly wasn't expecting the Samara results to be all R1b. And yet they seem to be the wrong subclade to be ancestral to most of the R1b in western Europe. Some very strange conclusions by the authors, I would say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Unless there is a mistake in the K=20 data, it means that all the WHG (like in Motala and La Brana) has now become extinct in modern Europeans (who are a mix of Yamna and EEF).
    Exactly. However, all cultures *following* Corded Ware do show WHG admixture. The article even clearly states that a resurge happened. Also it states that modern Europeans could be explained as half Neolithic with a WHG resurge and half Yamnaya. So did that part of WHG go extinct in the Bronze or Iron age?

    Even stranger is the fact that Swedish HG show no affinity *at all* to EHG nor to American Indians. However, we know some had quite some ANE admixture. But Loschbourg actually *does* have a tad EHG as well as a tad EEF. The latter would probably mean that a part of EEF actually is connected to Loschbourg. Let's assume that WHG contributed locally to the newly arrived farmers that would make sense. Stuttgart is far closer to Luxembourg than to North Spain or Sweden. It could even explain how Stuttgart got a part EHG. But where did the Caucasus part of Stuttgart come from?

    There is a blogpost at Fennoscandia where it's explained that La Brana actually left quite some traces to Basques and Sardianians. Why doesn't that show up in K=20 here?

    http://fennoscandia.blogspot.no/2014...ardinians.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What is odd is that from K=16 to K=19 Yamna looks half EHG (deep blue) and half Caucasian-Gedrosian (greyish green), but in K=20 Yamna suddenly becomes 80% EHG (sometimes with some WHG) and only 20% Caucasian-Gedrosian.
    Yes, a thing that also happens in the ADMIXTURE runs of the first Lazardis paper. That's why I wonder if I really understand how this works.

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    If we look at how much Y DNA there is in eastern and central Europe that isn't R1a or R1b, and think about the survival of non-IE languages into the historic period, the idea of such massive population replacement by Indo-Europeans doesn't make sense to me. And if we're talking about massive migrations out of the steppe, why is R1b so much more prevalent in western Europe than in eastern Europe, and why different subclades than found at Samara.

    I think the authors of this paper have proven two things; that R1b had a very wide spread distribution across Europe more than 7000 years ago and that it's possible to reach some really erroneous conclusions using PCA charts.

    Still not one Iberian BB Y DNA result.

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    Yes, great results. Never expected such a confirmation of my theories. No R1a in Yamnaya, so there's still no evidence that R1a-Z93 in Iranic folks is from Yamnaya or the Pontic-Caspian Steppes in general. I knew it, but didn't expect that they would find Anatolian (Armenian, West Iranic) R1b in Yamnaya. R1b in Yamnaya is Anatolia, which again is a great indication that Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is right about his Armenian hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis . The latest results are victory for Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze! It's true that Indo-Europeans in Europe came from Yamnaya. But folks from NorthWest Asia (from Maykop) Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. I was telling this all the time. Indo-Europeanization occured in stages. Best news for me is that R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And this fact is making my thoughts even stronger!

  24. #24
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yes, great results. Never expected such a confirmation of my theories. No R1a in Yamnaya, so there's still no evidence that R1a-Z93 in Iranic folks is from Yamnaya or the Pontic-Caspian Steppes in general. I knew it, but didn't expect that they would find Anatolian (Armenian, West Iranic) R1b in Yamnaya. R1b in Yamnaya is Anatolia, which again is a great indication that Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is right about his Armenian hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis . The latest results are victory for Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze! It's true that Indo-Europeans in Europe came from Yamnaya. But folks from NorthWest Asia (from Maykop) Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. I was telling this all the time. Indo-Europeanization occured in stages. Best news for me is that R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And this fact is making my thoughts even stronger!
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.
    No, they found R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya, and R1b-Z2103 is native to Anatolia area (very common among Armenians and West Iranic people)

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