the 81 or 84 % R1b-M269 is that M269* or is it just not checked for subclades ?
if it is M269*, they are a special group , this couldn't be coincidence
and with this part of M73 included maybe they were another early split like Anatolian and Tocharian, with some IE language now extinct

They didn't test downstream of M269. I originally proposed in 2009 that the Tocharians descended from the M73 branch (although not all M73 are Tocharian, of course). I now think they could have been a mixture of R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-M73.

R1a-Z2125 was Andronovo?

Andronovo was predominantly R1a-Z93, and most if not all Z93 subclades would have been part and would have appeared during Andronovo period, including Z2125 (Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125).
 
I now think they could have been a mixture of R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-M73.

According to prof. Hui Zhou - though this result is not yet officially published - Tocharian R1a was not Z93:

LINK: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15/comments#2168698

Hui Zhou (2014-07-18 16:14) Jilin University

Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belonging to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which is mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to HgM25 in India, and in our study it was not HgM25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.
Clyde Winters said:
Hui Zhou suggest that the origin of the Xiaohe mummies are of Indo-European origin. In the main article the authors claim that Xiaohe “is different from any other archaeological site of the same period anywhere in the world”. Yet now Hui says the Xiaohe was similar to the Afanaseivo culture. (...) The Afanaseivo culture is characterized by chariots, pottery, timber chamber and rectangular stone enclosure burials, inhumation and creamation. (...)
 
But if not Z93, then what could it be ???
 
There are some outdated informations here about Armenians.
The majority of Armenians are L584 (60% of all R1b). Under L584 there is an obvious Armenian cluster with the age 3200 ybp. This basically put an end to speculations that Armenian R1b is related to Hurrians. Because Hurrians became extinct 3200 ago and it was Armenians who were expanding.
It is this lineage. L584 - > PH4150 https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18781/ formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp
Notice that formation age 4700 ybp and the expansion age nicely fits into what was known linguistically about Armenians.

The next most frequent is L277.1 (27% of all R1b)
The third is the CTS7763 (~7% of all R1b) which Maciamo thinks is Greek. It was found in LBA Armenia in Kapan town. So it doesn't look Greek or alternatively Greeks entered from Anatolia.
The fourth is PF7562 (~5% of all R1b) This branch look like it is a Hittite. It branches before L23. Upstream case is found in Laz NE Turkey. So it could mean that Hittites came from Maykop?
And then we have Khndzoresk young cluster of L51 and few CTS7822 who recently specificaly tested by admins of Armenian DNA project to see how much impact is there from Balkans. Well not much. 6 cases from 1500 people. So this could be Thracians , Phrygians and others.

Basically this confirms the idea that Armenians entered South Caucasus after the Kura-Araxes ended, bringing Kurganic culture into South Caucasus.
Autosomally they look that they are coming from NW of Black Sea.

Initially their territory was small, but at 1200 BC they profited from the chaotic situation in Near East end expanded their territory. This expansion is visible under the Armenian R1b-L584.

 
There are some outdated informations here about Armenians.
The majority of Armenians are L584 (60% of all R1b). Under L584 there is an obvious Armenian cluster with the age 3200 ybp. This basically put an end to speculations that Armenian R1b is related to Hurrians. Because Hurrians became extinct 3200 ago and it was Armenians who were expanding.
It is this lineage. L584 - > PH4150 https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18781/ formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp
Notice that formation age 4700 ybp and the expansion age nicely fits into what was known linguistically about Armenians.

The next most frequent is L277.1 (27% of all R1b)
The third is the CTS7763 (~7% of all R1b) which Maciamo thinks is Greek. It was found in LBA Armenia in Kapan town. So it doesn't look Greek or alternatively Greeks entered from Anatolia.
The fourth is PF7562 (~5% of all R1b) This branch look like it is a Hittite. It branches before L23. Upstream case is found in Laz NE Turkey. So it could mean that Hittites came from Maykop?
And then we have Khndzoresk young cluster of L51 and few CTS7822 who recently specificaly tested by admins of Armenian DNA project to see how much impact is there from Balkans. Well not much. 6 cases from 1500 people. So this could be Thracians , Phrygians and others.

Basically this confirms the idea that Armenians entered South Caucasus after the Kura-Araxes ended, bringing Kurganic culture into South Caucasus.
Autosomally they look that they are coming from NW of Black Sea.

Initially their territory was small, but at 1200 BC they profited from the chaotic situation in Near East end expanded their territory. This expansion is visible under the Armenian R1b-L584.

Very interesting, Proto-Armenians do seem to be mainly R1b-L584 --> PH4150, what about the Persian or Kurdish R1b ? are they L584 ? the Iranian members in the basal subclades project have Armenian surnames, so I haven't seen any true Persian R1b yet, Maciamo in his article on R1b claimes (I don't know if he changed his view) that R1b-L584 correlates more with the Iranian branch of of Indo-Iranian, while L277 is more Indo Aryan, I see a problem in this view because of the large Armenian subclade, if L584 is Iranian then why is the Armenian language an Independent Indo-European branch separate from Iranian ?

this article discusses the origin of the Proto-Armenians, if L584 came from the north of the black sea then which hypothesis is more plausible from the 3 or 4 possibilities the author discusses here:
http://armscoop.com/wp-content/uplo...of-the-Proto-Armenians-A-Critical-Review1.pdf

There is an interesting Jewish subclade of L584 --> PF7580 --> FGC14598, which also includes one Lebanese member, could it be the Philistines ? the sea peoples that gave their names to Palestine, if that is the case then we should find modern Palestinians that are positive for this snp, if they ever tested.

Albanian R1b is mostly CTS7822, I don't know what to make of this branch, maybe the original lineage of the Thracians ? it exists in Bulgaria and Romania, the homeland of the Thracians, but also in Russia, Italy, and Spain and so it could have spread with the Goths after they assimilated the native Thracians or Dacians, if we were to assume that then we should expect the Thracian and Dacian languages to be similar to Albanian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_Thracian#Albanian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Thracian_or_Dacian_origin

Finally I agree that PF7562 is better classified as Hittite, it is an old subclade descending directly from R1b-M269, one problem though, its frequency is about 3% in Turkey, isnt that too low to make it the principal lineage of the Hittites ?
 
Ossetian is also CTS 7822. Alans and Sarmatians.
 
Albanian R1b is mostly CTS7822, I don't know what to make of this branch, maybe the original lineage of the Thracians ? it exists in Bulgaria and Romania, the homeland of the Thracians, but also in Russia, Italy, and Spain and so it could have spread with the Goths after they assimilated the native Thracians or Dacians, if we were to assume that then we should expect the Thracian and Dacian languages to be similar to Albanian.
Language and people are two different things. If you keep them too close together in your mind, things become confused. So far we don't even know if we should place Thracians more to the predominantly R1a people or more to the R1b ones. The lexica of the language itself is more closely related to the baltic languages than with the Albanian and the latter can hardly be closely related to the baltic languages. So we have either a balto-thracian group and an Albanian (Illyrian?) or all three are distinct, (and distinct to the slavic languages as well).

Another point is the time frame. We don't know how old the thracian language branch really is, therefore we can't place Thracians in a specific Haplogroup. You can see how tricky this is with the slavic languages. They converge roughly 1500-2000 years ago in the Balkans, but the 'west slavic' languages are spoken by dominantly M458 people, who split from the Balkan people at least 2000 years before the 'origin' of the slavic languages. The consequences of this is that you can't call Poles or Sorbs Slavs even if they speak a slavic language. The same goes for Romanians, you can't call them Romans as well, just because they speak a Romance language. So language and people often are separated in space and time and assigning haplogroups to languages is full of errors.
 
IronSide

Well I can't answer instead of Maciamo. He has a theory that Colchian culture in South Caucasus is Armenian. But I don't know any scholar who proposed such a strange idea. Colchian culture was a Kartvelian culture with Aryan/Scythian superstrate/elite. Most probably the reason why Ossetians have high level of G2 is due to this long period of cohabitation.

One thing I can say judging with the Big Ys we are getting it is very unlikely that L584 and L277 comes from Central Asia. Most probably they entered via Caucasus after 2400BC.

Here are new samples of Armenians under L277
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y4364/

Notice that 3 Armenians fall under a 2600 year old branch. The other one is in more upstream position.
Most probably the majority of Armenians L277 will fall under this 2600 year old branch. The age is not definitive. This L277 branch is of course not Armenian ( except that one branch ) but linking it with Iranian expansions is also problematic. The reason is that the place from where it expands is in NW Iran/S Caucasus, and it starts to expand _before_ the arrival of Iranians.
So who could be related to this branch?

My theory is that this is a branch of now extinct IE language. This was the Gutians. Very little is known about Gutian language but some scholars hypothesized that they were IE group with a language similar to Tocharian ( one of king names Tirigan has a tocharian like word -gan at the end, making the etymology of this name like Tir Given similar to Iranian Tiridat ) The presence of L277 in Mesopotamia and Levant also favours this theory. The name of Gutians is similar to Goths, Getae. This name are derived from IE *wet - > get meaning river people.

Also Kurds consider Gutians as their ancestors, and it seems that the most frequent R1b among Kurds is the L277 one.

As for Armenian ethnogenesis the best theory that fits into genetic data is the "Dragon Stone" theory proposed recently by Hrach Martirosyan et al. This theory is already partially proven by genetic data. We are just waiting to see Trialeti culture kurgan burials. If they were L584 then a lot off things will be solved. I will present this theory and my view on L584 tomorrow.
 
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IronSide

I couldn't get that paper on Dragon Stones in English. It's not yet published.
So I will tell my opinion based on genetic data.
In essence it is a mix of Etiuni hypothesis and Hayassa one.A migration from modern Armenia Republic (Etiuni) to Upper parts of Euphrates and formation there of Hayassa, which was a multiethnic state with Hattic like substrate. Later when Hayassa disappears then the Mushki and Urumu ( correct reading is probably Aramu ) expands from ex Hayassa Upper Euphrate to South and South West. In South they are defeated by Assyria. And they continue to move to West where later we see Greek Moschois there. This Mushkis expansions has a strong archaeological basis in the form of potteries.
All this events are mostly related to L584. So L584 is not only Armenian but also Mushki/Moschoi/Meshekh. Also most probably L584 played a role in the formation of Manneans. We have aDNA from NW Iran in Mannean lands. 900 BC. Btw that aDNA doesn't show any hint that it came from Central Asia, Andronovo / BMAC like Maciamo suggests.

Concerning L584 homeland after Steppe. My theory ( we will check that with aDNA in coming years) is that L584 appeared in Trialeti culture. Then it expanded West. Formed Hayassa. Hayassa collapses during LBA crisis and we have Mushki and Urumu expansion that we can easily link to that 3200 year old cluster under L584. One branch moved quite early in South. Lake Urmia, North Levant. Jews probably get their L584 either from Manneans, or Mushki/Meshekhs ( attested in Bible as a son of Aram ) Or alternatively from Philistineans.

Btw I didn't answer Your question about Iranian R1b. I expect them to be very diverse. L584 in theory shouldn't be a majority in Iran, but the L277. This L277 probably expanded with Saka and Massagetes later when Gutians where Iranised. Also there should be a hotspot off Z2110 in Zagros in correlation with E-V13. Various branches of 2106 are expected. And maybe some P312. Here is a link on Kurdish Y dna.

http://corduene.blogspot.am/2017/01/december-2016-update.html
 
Sorry I meant the Mari ! I have just added a paragraph on the origins of the Mordovians (who are probably descended from the Goths from Moldova).

30%+ Balkans + I2a and R1b-Z2103 could safely assume an indigenous Lower Danube-Carpathian population of Dacian-Getae + Celto-Germanic Bastarne and/or Goths + Sarmat / Slavic, depending on age.

If we talk about Chernyakov - Santana culture, then probably the reason of Mordvins displacement could be due to Huns;
Possibly taken into slavery along with a local mix Celto-Germanic-Sarmat. found at NW of Black Sea during that time.

There is also the hypothesis that the Mordovians could be direct descendants from Tyragetae, Tysagetae - not far from their attested spot or Samo-Getae (given also the R1a and I1). Looks like Mordovian folklore is also similar to Moldovans.
 
hi. I am Chinese who have just tested Y Chromosome and get the result in YFULL which is R1b-Z2106-CTS8966 with Sample ID:ELT50011
 
hi. I am Chinese who have just tested Y Chromosome and get the result in YFULL which is R1b-Z2106-CTS8966 with Sample ID:ELT50011

Cool. Which region of china are you from if I may ask ?
 
I am now living in eastern China.

Sorry I didn't phrase my question correctly. Where were you born in China ? Which region .. I'm guessing north-west China ?
 
actually I am Hui people in China who is minor ethnic group primarily migrated from Central or West Asia due to Mongol's invasion.
 
Can anybody explain basically when was z2301 born and where. What is the place of origin of z2103?
 
Can anybody explain basically when was z2301 born and where. What is the place of origin of z2103?

The oldest R1b-Z2103 we have is from Hajji Firuz in Iran ca. 5650 BC, anything other than that is speculative.
 

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