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Thread: Modern distribution of R1b-Z2103

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    There are some outdated informations here about Armenians.
    The majority of Armenians are L584 (60% of all R1b). Under L584 there is an obvious Armenian cluster with the age 3200 ybp. This basically put an end to speculations that Armenian R1b is related to Hurrians. Because Hurrians became extinct 3200 ago and it was Armenians who were expanding.
    It is this lineage. L584 - > PH4150 https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18781/ formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp
    Notice that formation age 4700 ybp and the expansion age nicely fits into what was known linguistically about Armenians.

    The next most frequent is L277.1 (27% of all R1b)
    The third is the CTS7763 (~7% of all R1b) which Maciamo thinks is Greek. It was found in LBA Armenia in Kapan town. So it doesn't look Greek or alternatively Greeks entered from Anatolia.
    The fourth is PF7562 (~5% of all R1b) This branch look like it is a Hittite. It branches before L23. Upstream case is found in Laz NE Turkey. So it could mean that Hittites came from Maykop?
    And then we have Khndzoresk young cluster of L51 and few CTS7822 who recently specificaly tested by admins of Armenian DNA project to see how much impact is there from Balkans. Well not much. 6 cases from 1500 people. So this could be Thracians , Phrygians and others.

    Basically this confirms the idea that Armenians entered South Caucasus after the Kura-Araxes ended, bringing Kurganic culture into South Caucasus.
    Autosomally they look that they are coming from NW of Black Sea.

    Initially their territory was small, but at 1200 BC they profited from the chaotic situation in Near East end expanded their territory. This expansion is visible under the Armenian R1b-L584.

    Very interesting, Proto-Armenians do seem to be mainly R1b-L584 --> PH4150, what about the Persian or Kurdish R1b ? are they L584 ? the Iranian members in the basal subclades project have Armenian surnames, so I haven't seen any true Persian R1b yet, Maciamo in his article on R1b claimes (I don't know if he changed his view) that R1b-L584 correlates more with the Iranian branch of of Indo-Iranian, while L277 is more Indo Aryan, I see a problem in this view because of the large Armenian subclade, if L584 is Iranian then why is the Armenian language an Independent Indo-European branch separate from Iranian ?

    this article discusses the origin of the Proto-Armenians, if L584 came from the north of the black sea then which hypothesis is more plausible from the 3 or 4 possibilities the author discusses here:
    http://armscoop.com/wp-content/uploa...al-Review1.pdf

    There is an interesting Jewish subclade of L584 --> PF7580 --> FGC14598, which also includes one Lebanese member, could it be the Philistines ? the sea peoples that gave their names to Palestine, if that is the case then we should find modern Palestinians that are positive for this snp, if they ever tested.

    Albanian R1b is mostly CTS7822, I don't know what to make of this branch, maybe the original lineage of the Thracians ? it exists in Bulgaria and Romania, the homeland of the Thracians, but also in Russia, Italy, and Spain and so it could have spread with the Goths after they assimilated the native Thracians or Dacians, if we were to assume that then we should expect the Thracian and Dacian languages to be similar to Albanian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classi...acian#Albanian
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin..._Dacian_origin

    Finally I agree that PF7562 is better classified as Hittite, it is an old subclade descending directly from R1b-M269, one problem though, its frequency is about 3% in Turkey, isnt that too low to make it the principal lineage of the Hittites ?

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    Ossetian is also CTS 7822. Alans and Sarmatians.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Albanian R1b is mostly CTS7822, I don't know what to make of this branch, maybe the original lineage of the Thracians ? it exists in Bulgaria and Romania, the homeland of the Thracians, but also in Russia, Italy, and Spain and so it could have spread with the Goths after they assimilated the native Thracians or Dacians, if we were to assume that then we should expect the Thracian and Dacian languages to be similar to Albanian.
    Language and people are two different things. If you keep them too close together in your mind, things become confused. So far we don't even know if we should place Thracians more to the predominantly R1a people or more to the R1b ones. The lexica of the language itself is more closely related to the baltic languages than with the Albanian and the latter can hardly be closely related to the baltic languages. So we have either a balto-thracian group and an Albanian (Illyrian?) or all three are distinct, (and distinct to the slavic languages as well).

    Another point is the time frame. We don't know how old the thracian language branch really is, therefore we can't place Thracians in a specific Haplogroup. You can see how tricky this is with the slavic languages. They converge roughly 1500-2000 years ago in the Balkans, but the 'west slavic' languages are spoken by dominantly M458 people, who split from the Balkan people at least 2000 years before the 'origin' of the slavic languages. The consequences of this is that you can't call Poles or Sorbs Slavs even if they speak a slavic language. The same goes for Romanians, you can't call them Romans as well, just because they speak a Romance language. So language and people often are separated in space and time and assigning haplogroups to languages is full of errors.

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    IronSide

    Well I can't answer instead of Maciamo. He has a theory that Colchian culture in South Caucasus is Armenian. But I don't know any scholar who proposed such a strange idea. Colchian culture was a Kartvelian culture with Aryan/Scythian superstrate/elite. Most probably the reason why Ossetians have high level of G2 is due to this long period of cohabitation.

    One thing I can say judging with the Big Ys we are getting it is very unlikely that L584 and L277 comes from Central Asia. Most probably they entered via Caucasus after 2400BC.

    Here are new samples of Armenians under L277
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y4364/

    Notice that 3 Armenians fall under a 2600 year old branch. The other one is in more upstream position.
    Most probably the majority of Armenians L277 will fall under this 2600 year old branch. The age is not definitive. This L277 branch is of course not Armenian ( except that one branch ) but linking it with Iranian expansions is also problematic. The reason is that the place from where it expands is in NW Iran/S Caucasus, and it starts to expand _before_ the arrival of Iranians.
    So who could be related to this branch?

    My theory is that this is a branch of now extinct IE language. This was the Gutians. Very little is known about Gutian language but some scholars hypothesized that they were IE group with a language similar to Tocharian ( one of king names Tirigan has a tocharian like word -gan at the end, making the etymology of this name like Tir Given similar to Iranian Tiridat ) The presence of L277 in Mesopotamia and Levant also favours this theory. The name of Gutians is similar to Goths, Getae. This name are derived from IE *wet - > get meaning river people.

    Also Kurds consider Gutians as their ancestors, and it seems that the most frequent R1b among Kurds is the L277 one.

    As for Armenian ethnogenesis the best theory that fits into genetic data is the "Dragon Stone" theory proposed recently by Hrach Martirosyan et al. This theory is already partially proven by genetic data. We are just waiting to see Trialeti culture kurgan burials. If they were L584 then a lot off things will be solved. I will present this theory and my view on L584 tomorrow.
    Last edited by Arame; 28-02-17 at 09:52.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    IronSide

    I couldn't get that paper on Dragon Stones in English. It's not yet published.
    So I will tell my opinion based on genetic data.
    In essence it is a mix of Etiuni hypothesis and Hayassa one.A migration from modern Armenia Republic (Etiuni) to Upper parts of Euphrates and formation there of Hayassa, which was a multiethnic state with Hattic like substrate. Later when Hayassa disappears then the Mushki and Urumu ( correct reading is probably Aramu ) expands from ex Hayassa Upper Euphrate to South and South West. In South they are defeated by Assyria. And they continue to move to West where later we see Greek Moschois there. This Mushkis expansions has a strong archaeological basis in the form of potteries.
    All this events are mostly related to L584. So L584 is not only Armenian but also Mushki/Moschoi/Meshekh. Also most probably L584 played a role in the formation of Manneans. We have aDNA from NW Iran in Mannean lands. 900 BC. Btw that aDNA doesn't show any hint that it came from Central Asia, Andronovo / BMAC like Maciamo suggests.

    Concerning L584 homeland after Steppe. My theory ( we will check that with aDNA in coming years) is that L584 appeared in Trialeti culture. Then it expanded West. Formed Hayassa. Hayassa collapses during LBA crisis and we have Mushki and Urumu expansion that we can easily link to that 3200 year old cluster under L584. One branch moved quite early in South. Lake Urmia, North Levant. Jews probably get their L584 either from Manneans, or Mushki/Meshekhs ( attested in Bible as a son of Aram ) Or alternatively from Philistineans.

    Btw I didn't answer Your question about Iranian R1b. I expect them to be very diverse. L584 in theory shouldn't be a majority in Iran, but the L277. This L277 probably expanded with Saka and Massagetes later when Gutians where Iranised. Also there should be a hotspot off Z2110 in Zagros in correlation with E-V13. Various branches of 2106 are expected. And maybe some P312. Here is a link on Kurdish Y dna.

    http://corduene.blogspot.am/2017/01/...16-update.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Sorry I meant the Mari ! I have just added a paragraph on the origins of the Mordovians (who are probably descended from the Goths from Moldova).
    30%+ Balkans + I2a and R1b-Z2103 could safely assume an indigenous Lower Danube-Carpathian population of Dacian-Getae + Celto-Germanic Bastarne and/or Goths + Sarmat / Slavic, depending on age.

    If we talk about Chernyakov - Santana culture, then probably the reason of Mordvins displacement could be due to Huns;
    Possibly taken into slavery along with a local mix Celto-Germanic-Sarmat. found at NW of Black Sea during that time.

    There is also the hypothesis that the Mordovians could be direct descendants from Tyragetae, Tysagetae - not far from their attested spot or Samo-Getae (given also the R1a and I1). Looks like Mordovian folklore is also similar to Moldovans.

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    hi. I am Chinese who have just tested Y Chromosome and get the result in YFULL which is R1b-Z2106-CTS8966 with Sample ID:ELT50011

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet View Post
    hi. I am Chinese who have just tested Y Chromosome and get the result in YFULL which is R1b-Z2106-CTS8966 with Sample ID:ELT50011
    Cool. Which region of china are you from if I may ask ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Cool. Which region of china are you from if I may ask ?
    I am now living in eastern China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet View Post
    I am now living in eastern China.
    Sorry I didn't phrase my question correctly. Where were you born in China ? Which region .. I'm guessing north-west China ?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I borned in eastern China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet View Post
    I borned in eastern China.
    Sorry if this is personal, but are you Muslim ? or of Muslim background ?

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    actually I am Hui people in China who is minor ethnic group primarily migrated from Central or West Asia due to Mongol's invasion.

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    Can anybody explain basically when was z2301 born and where. What is the place of origin of z2103?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    Can anybody explain basically when was z2301 born and where. What is the place of origin of z2103?
    The oldest R1b-Z2103 we have is from Hajji Firuz in Iran ca. 5650 BC, anything other than that is speculative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    The oldest R1b-Z2103 we have is from Hajji Firuz in Iran ca. 5650 BC, anything other than that is speculative.
    I forgot about that guy - that's bloody old, are we sure the C14 is correct?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is indeed old, considering yfull estimates that Z2103 began forming in 4,100 BC and is 95% confident that it is no older than 4,800 BC. Mistakes in classification are not unknown, although my estimates are that formational Z2103 could well be as old as 5,500 BC if some curiously divergent outliers are incorporated into the analysis.

    There are ten Z2103-equivalent SNPs that could have come together over a thousand or more years, so what is considered to be the 'birthplace' of Z2103 is probably a very wide area, especially if its long sequence of bearers were nomadic.

    The relevant data is limited, but suggests that the bearers of formational Z2103 most likely existed predominantly over a wide arc running from the Caucasus region to Poland. Its two surviving branches appear to have separated fairly early on - (i) a Western branch that spread around Germany and the Balkans before withering and being subsumed into other populations (e.g. R1a-dominated Corded Ware), and (ii) an Eastern branch that retreated into relative isolation around the Caucasus and Caspian before merging later into mainly Caucasian populations. (There would also have been other branches that died out - one isolated early Northern Spanish sample, for instance, has a curious autosomal similarity to Balkan Z2103.)

    I am interested in the modern distribution of Z2103 South of the Caucasus, and the degree to which it might descend from Eastern Yamnaya, Maykop and/or Hittite populations, if anyone has further information on this?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I have just checked on the Hajji Firuz R1b-Z2103 sample dated 5,650 BC.

    The same study shows a sample of R1b-U106 from Iron Gates Serbia dated 8,885 BC. However, the subclade of U106 identified for this sample (R1b1a1a2a1a1b1a1a) is estimated by yfull to have a formation date of only 700 BC.

    My understanding is that the readings in this study are only estimated, based on calls. As with many reports in relation to ancient samples, the reliability of this reading is perhaps questionable.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    It is indeed old, considering yfull estimates that Z2103 began forming in 4,100 BC and is 95% confident that it is no older than 4,800 BC. Mistakes in classification are not unknown, although my estimates are that formational Z2103 could well be as old as 5,500 BC if some curiously divergent outliers are incorporated into the analysis.

    There are ten Z2103-equivalent SNPs that could have come together over a thousand or more years, so what is considered to be the 'birthplace' of Z2103 is probably a very wide area, especially if its long sequence of bearers were nomadic.

    The relevant data is limited, but suggests that the bearers of formational Z2103 most likely existed predominantly over a wide arc running from the Caucasus region to Poland. Its two surviving branches appear to have separated fairly early on - (i) a Western branch that spread around Germany and the Balkans before withering and being subsumed into other populations (e.g. R1a-dominated Corded Ware), and (ii) an Eastern branch that retreated into relative isolation around the Caucasus and Caspian before merging later into mainly Caucasian populations. (There would also have been other branches that died out - one isolated early Northern Spanish sample, for instance, has a curious autosomal similarity to Balkan Z2103.)

    I am interested in the modern distribution of Z2103 South of the Caucasus, and the degree to which it might descend from Eastern Yamnaya, Maykop and/or Hittite populations, if anyone has further information on this?
    An online active ydna/culture map,with ancient R1b-Z2103>Z2108+Z2109+Z2110+ samples [Yamnaya,Afansievo,Polatavka,Catacombe,Vucedol,Bell Beaker,Sintashta?,Sarmatian,Scythian etc...]



    http://images.devs-on.net/Image/67vh...2jK-Region.png

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Eastern R1b-Z2103 appears to have developed in the Caucasus region at around the same time as the Dolmen culture arose in this region. Might the heavy concentration of modern Z2103 around the Western Caucasus be linked to this, rather than preceding Steppe cultures? If not R1b-Z2103, which other y-DNA would the Dolmen people have borne?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The modern distribution of R1b-Z2103 exhibits its greatest diversity in two areas - the Southern Caucasus and East Central Europe. SNPs on yfull's database suggest a most likely formation zone for Z2103 in the Caucasus and STRs/SNPs on FTDNA's database suggest a most likely formation zone in East Central Europe, but there is insufficient data to arrive at a firm conclusion one way or the other.

    There is little evidence in modern distributions to indicate a significant early development of surviving Z2103 populations anywhere across the vast area of the Steppe - it seems that either the early Z2103 Steppe populations largely evacuated the area or were otherwise eradicated from it, or that the Steppe was principally a migratory route for them between the Caucasus and East Central Europe.

    Autosomally, early Z2103 samples (3,000-2,800 BC) across Eastern Europe (Balkans, Ukraine and Russia) are strikingly diverse, suggesting that yfull's TMRCA of 3,600 BC for Z2103 might be an underestimate. A combined analysis of SNPs and STRs would suggest a TMRCA of something more like 4,400 BC.

    However, the first significant developmental stages of Z2103's Western and Eastern branches each appear to date to only approximately 3,200 BC. Eastern Z2103 is curious; both yfull's and FTDNA's databases seem to indicate the same thing - that its first significant developments were in Armenia, even though samples from this area at that time show little sign of the autosomal DNA that is core to early Z2103 samples. My suggestions are that (i) the ancestors of today's eastern Z2103 were located just to the West of where it now has its most diverse presence - along the low-lying coastal area from Circassia to North Eastern Turkey, and (ii) Z2103 spread into Armenia from the West just as R1a-Z93 moved into it from the North East during the early third millennium BC.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    The modern distribution of R1b-Z2103 exhibits its greatest diversity in two areas - the Southern Caucasus and East Central Europe. SNPs on yfull's database suggest a most likely formation zone for Z2103 in the Caucasus and STRs/SNPs on FTDNA's database suggest a most likely formation zone in East Central Europe, but there is insufficient data to arrive at a firm conclusion one way or the other.

    There is little evidence in modern distributions to indicate a significant early development of surviving Z2103 populations anywhere across the vast area of the Steppe - it seems that either the early Z2103 Steppe populations largely evacuated the area or were otherwise eradicated from it, or that the Steppe was principally a migratory route for them between the Caucasus and East Central Europe.

    Autosomally, early Z2103 samples (3,000-2,800 BC) across Eastern Europe (Balkans, Ukraine and Russia) are strikingly diverse, suggesting that yfull's TMRCA of 3,600 BC for Z2103 might be an underestimate. A combined analysis of SNPs and STRs would suggest a TMRCA of something more like 4,400 BC.

    However, the first significant developmental stages of Z2103's Western and Eastern branches each appear to date to only approximately 3,200 BC. Eastern Z2103 is curious; both yfull's and FTDNA's databases seem to indicate the same thing - that its first significant developments were in Armenia, even though samples from this area at that time show little sign of the autosomal DNA that is core to early Z2103 samples. My suggestions are that (i) the ancestors of today's eastern Z2103 were located just to the West of where it now has its most diverse presence - along the low-lying coastal area from Circassia to North Eastern Turkey, and (ii) Z2103 spread into Armenia from the West just as R1a-Z93 moved into it from the North East during the early third millennium BC.
    Using modern population to explain ancient migration is the wrongest thing ever. Because like showing in India, their endogamism have created such founder effect that even if R1a-Z93 is found in prehistoric context in Eastern Europe / Central Asia, modern India is such a totally other population. Underhill did the same mistake by infering R1a must expanded from Iran because diversity was higher there. All those datas are absolutely missleading the reality of prehistoric migrations. The Pontic Zone meaning the Black Sea is an Horseshoe with the Caucasus at his Base. Meaning that, looking at ancient datas from Pontic Steppe were R1b and R1a originate at one point, their modern distribution and modern diversity gonna for sure being around Eastern Europe ( Russia, Ukraine ) -> Romania -> Bulgaria -> Turkey -> South Caucasus -> Iran. We still gonna have to listen to their everlasting hypothesis, until ancient samples only gonna confirm the north eurasian origin and expansion of R-related lineage. We should start to ask to some people especially Daamgard, why he dont test for y-dna some very important samples in relation with thoses expansions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Using modern population to explain ancient migration is the wrongest thing ever. Because like showing in India, their endogamism have created such founder effect that even if R1a-Z93 is found in prehistoric context in Eastern Europe / Central Asia, modern India is such a totally other population. Underhill did the same mistake by infering R1a must expanded from Iran because diversity was higher there. All those datas are absolutely missleading the reality of prehistoric migrations. The Pontic Zone meaning the Black Sea is an Horseshoe with the Caucasus at his Base. Meaning that, looking at ancient datas from Pontic Steppe were R1b and R1a originate at one point, their modern distribution and modern diversity gonna for sure being around Eastern Europe ( Russia, Ukraine ) -> Romania -> Bulgaria -> Turkey -> South Caucasus -> Iran. We still gonna have to listen to their everlasting hypothesis, until ancient samples only gonna confirm the north eurasian origin and expansion of R-related lineage. We should start to ask to some people especially Daamgard, why he dont test for y-dna some very important samples in relation with thoses expansions.
    One of the most successful military armies-Mongols
    War Death Range Location
    Mongol conquests 40,000,000–70,000,000 Eurasia
    Taiping Rebellion 20,000,000–100,000,000 China
    Three Kingdoms War 36,000,000–40,000,000 China
    Conquest of the Americas 8,400,000–137,750,000 Americas
    The Battle of Samara Bend (Russian: Монгольско-булгарское сражение, lit. 'Mongolian-Bulgarian battle') or the Battle of Kernek was the first battle between Volga Bulgaria and the Mongols, probably one of the first skirmishes or battles the Mongols lost. It took place in autumn 1223, at the southern border of Volga Bulgaria. The Bulgars retreated and the Mongols pursued them. Then the main Bulgar forces ambushed the Mongols.
    Samara- region has been the home of R1b-Z2103 [Yamnaya/Poltovka/Catacombe to south,Sintashta/ Sarmatians, and Bashkirs]for a minimum of 5500YBP+/- if not older.

    Any trace of Ghenis khan descendants in the region?

    DNA evidence[edit]

    Numerous studies by teams of biochemists, based on the Y-DNA of modern descendants of Genghis Khan, have indicated that Genghis Khan may have belonged to a subclade of Haplogroup C-M217 (C2) such as C-F4002 (C2b1a3).[8]
    Proponents of the theory regarding C-M217 have put forward hypothetical Y-DNA profiles, such as a 25 Marker "Genghis Khan" profile released by Family Tree DNA:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan









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    Not sure to get your message.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The thread is about R1b-Z2103 (rather than R1a-Z93 or R-related lineages in general), and about its modern (rather than its ancient) distribution. However, regarding the points made, I have no opinion to express on whether R-related lineages had a North Eurasian origin. And there is no reason to suppose that various branches of R1a did not expand both inside and far outside of Iran over their very long periods of formation and development; to try to locate a single pinpoint is futile.

    Data from modern populations provide a lot of detailed and accurate information that could relate to the most likely migrations of surviving branches. On the other hand, data from ancient samples is relatively sparse, commonly relates to lineages that have died out, and is frequently beset by classification errors. However, no information should be wholly disregarded; everything should be brought into consideration.

    Regarding modern populations of Z2103 specifically, I do not see anything in the data to demonstrate a North Eurasian aspect to the development of its surviving branches. There is a cluster of related early branches that coalesces around Armenia and a similar cluster that coalesces West of the Dniester - these are the branches that survive and thrive today.

    If anyone has any information to suggest that the immediate common ancestors of the Eastern branch of modern Z2103 most likely lived in an area other than the south eastern shores of the Black Sea around 3,000 BC, then I would be interested to hear about it.

    Furthermore, given that (i) Yamnayan Z2103 samples exhibit a highly uniform and stable autosomal mix, and (ii) non-Yamnayan European Z2103 samples are very diverse autosomally (both from Yamnaya and from each other), is there any more likely explanation for this than that their DNA developed separately within different European populations at an earlier date, rather than as part of a single Yamnayan incusion at a later date?

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