Modern distribution of R1b-Z2103

[halfalp]

The thread is about R1b-Z2103 (rather than R1a-Z93 or R-related lineages in general), and about its modern (rather than its ancient) distribution. However, regarding the points made, I have no opinion to express on whether R-related lineages had a North Eurasian origin. And there is no reason to suppose that various branches of R1a did not expand both inside and far outside of Iran over their very long periods of formation and development; to try to locate a single pinpoint is futile.

Data from modern populations provide a lot of detailed and accurate information that could relate to the most likely migrations of surviving branches. On the other hand, data from ancient samples is relatively sparse, commonly relates to lineages that have died out, and is frequently beset by classification errors. However, no information should be wholly disregarded; everything should be brought into consideration.

Regarding modern populations of Z2103 specifically, I do not see anything in the data to demonstrate a North Eurasian aspect to the development of its surviving branches. There is a cluster of related early branches that coalesces around Armenia and a similar cluster that coalesces East of the Dniester - these are the branches that survive and thrive today.

If anyone has any information to suggest that the immediate common ancestors of the Eastern branch of modern Z2103 most likely lived in an area other than the south eastern shores of the Black Sea around 3,000 BC, then I would be interested to hear about it.

Furthermore, given that (i) Yamnayan Z2103 samples exhibit a highly uniform and stable autosomal mix, and (ii) non-Yamnayan European Z2103 samples are very diverse autosomally (both from Yamnaya and from each other), is there any more likely explanation for this than that their DNA developed separately within different European populations at an earlier date, rather than as part of a single Yamnayan incusion at a later date?

Yes there is absolutely a reason... because it's wrong. No paleolithic or neolithic to date sample fro all that region were R1. No sign of Basal Eurasian into the ancient R1a sample that we got.

[halfalp]

The thread is about R1b-Z2103 (rather than R1a-Z93 or R-related lineages in general), and about its modern (rather than its ancient) distribution. However, regarding the points made, I have no opinion to express on whether R-related lineages had a North Eurasian origin. And there is no reason to suppose that various branches of R1a did not expand both inside and far outside of Iran over their very long periods of formation and development; to try to locate a single pinpoint is futile.

Data from modern populations provide a lot of detailed and accurate information that could relate to the most likely migrations of surviving branches. On the other hand, data from ancient samples is relatively sparse, commonly relates to lineages that have died out, and is frequently beset by classification errors. However, no information should be wholly disregarded; everything should be brought into consideration.

Regarding modern populations of Z2103 specifically, I do not see anything in the data to demonstrate a North Eurasian aspect to the development of its surviving branches. There is a cluster of related early branches that coalesces around Armenia and a similar cluster that coalesces West of the Dniester - these are the branches that survive and thrive today.

If anyone has any information to suggest that the immediate common ancestors of the Eastern branch of modern Z2103 most likely lived in an area other than the south eastern shores of the Black Sea around 3,000 BC, then I would be interested to hear about it.

Furthermore, given that (i) Yamnayan Z2103 samples exhibit a highly uniform and stable autosomal mix, and (ii) non-Yamnayan European Z2103 samples are very diverse autosomally (both from Yamnaya and from each other), is there any more likely explanation for this than that their DNA developed separately within different European populations at an earlier date, rather than as part of a single Yamnayan incusion at a later date?

Omg... so your argument is that ancient R1b-Z2103 from Pontic Steppe is different autosomally than modern Armenian branch. Bravo. No y-dna R1b-Z2103 was found in important sites from Armenia, neither found in Kura-Araxes or Maikop proper, wich does not make sense, there was no hiding R1b-Z2103 in prehistoric Armenia that resurface in modern times. Wich basically means that modern Armenian R1b-Z2103 have an obvious steppic origin linking with the way more obvious fact that Armenia and Armenian are a surviving branch of IE language and culture.

[Silesian]

Not sure to get your message.

[markod]

I have just checked on the Hajji Firuz R1b-Z2103 sample dated 5,650 BC.

The same study shows a sample of R1b-U106 from Iron Gates Serbia dated 8,885 BC. However, the subclade of U106 identified for this sample (R1b1a1a2a1a1b1a1a) is estimated by yfull to have a formation date of only 700 BC.

My understanding is that the readings in this study are only estimated, based on calls. As with many reports in relation to ancient samples, the reliability of this reading is perhaps questionable.

I think the Z2103 in Hajji Firuz has been confirmed by others. It hasn't been dated directly however.

[halfalp]

I still dont get it. Obviously in an ancient context, R1a-Z93 and IE languages ultimately came from Pontic Steppe. But the modern population of India, her diversity, her endogamism would make it R1a-Z93 more likely to be local than to come from elswhere. Do my point, you cannot use modern dna to explain ancient migrations, you just cant, even if you have obviously more datas than ancient datas.

[markod]

I still dont get it. Obviously in an ancient context, R1a-Z93 and IE languages ultimately came from Pontic Steppe. But the modern population of India, her diversity, her endogamism would make it R1a-Z93 more likely to be local than to come from elswhere. Do my point, you cannot use modern dna to explain ancient migrations, you just cant, even if you have obviously more datas than ancient datas.

Z93 basal diversity always pointed to an origin in Central Asia, as reported in Underhill (2014).

[Silesian]

I still dont get it. Obviously in an ancient context, R1a-Z93 and IE languages ultimately came from Pontic Steppe. But the modern population of India, her diversity, her endogamism would make it R1a-Z93 more likely to be local than to come from elswhere. Do my point, you cannot use modern dna to explain ancient migrations, you just cant, even if you have obviously more datas than ancient datas.

Do you agree with yfull that Steppe R1b-z2103 is older than some Steppe R1a branches?

R-L23PF6404 * L478/PF6403 * L23/S141/PF6534formed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp]info

• R-L23*
• R-Z2103 Y4371/Z8128/M12149 * S20902/Z8130 * CTS9416+7 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5600 ybpinfo
  
  • R-Z2103*
  • R-PF331FGC35088 * PF331formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybpinfo
    
    • id:YF07907
      ITA [IT-PR]

R-Z283Z662/CTS11197/PF6225 * Z283/S339/PF6217formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybpinfo

R-Z645Z646/CTS6596/M713/S346 * Z645/S224/PF6162/V1754 * Z650/CTS9754/PF6206/M750/V3726]+5 SNPsformed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybpinfo

• R-Z645*[COLOR=#777777 !important]
• R-Z93[COLOR=#777777 !important]Z2479/M746/S4582/V3664 * FGC77882 * Z93/F992/S202formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybpinfo
  
  • id:ERS256938[/COLOR]
    ITA [IT-CA]
  • R-Z93*

https://www.yfull.com/tree

[halfalp]

Z93 basal diversity always pointed to an origin in Central Asia, as reported in Underhill (2014).

Do you have a quote about Z93 basal diversity pointing to Central Asia in the Paper? I only see the following.

Y-STR haplotype networks and diversity

We genotyped a subset of 1355 R1a samples for 10–19 Y-chromosome STR loci (Supplementary Table 3) and constructed networks for both hg R1a-Z282 and hg R1a-Z93 (Supplementary Figure 1 and Supplementary Figure 2). Although we could assign haplotypes to various haplogroups, power to identify substructure within hg R1a-M198 was limited, consistent with previous work.^{22, 52} Although haplotype diversity is generally very high (H>0.95) in all haplogroups (Supplementary Table 3), lower diversities occur in south Siberian paragroup R1a-Z93* (H=0.921), in Jewish R1a-M582 (H=0.844) and in Roma R1a-M780 (H=0.759), consistent with founder effects that are evident in the network patterns for these populations (Supplementary Figure 2).

Wich make them believe that Z-93 origin was likely south asia.

[halfalp]

Diversity of an haplogroup gonna be higher into a geographical area comprizing multiple and diverse lineages isn't? So obviously even I2 could be more diverse in Kurdistan.

[halfalp]

Do you agree with yfull that Steppe R1b-z2103 is older than some Steppe R1a branches?



https://www.yfull.com/tree

What do i know?

[markod]

Do you have a quote about Z93 basal diversity pointing to Central Asia in the Paper? I only see the following.

Y-STR haplotype networks and diversity

We genotyped a subset of 1355 R1a samples for 10–19 Y-chromosome STR loci (Supplementary Table 3) and constructed networks for both hg R1a-Z282 and hg R1a-Z93 (Supplementary Figure 1 and Supplementary Figure 2). Although we could assign haplotypes to various haplogroups, power to identify substructure within hg R1a-M198 was limited, consistent with previous work.^{22, 52} Although haplotype diversity is generally very high (H>0.95) in all haplogroups (Supplementary Table 3), lower diversities occur in south Siberian paragroup R1a-Z93* (H=0.921), in Jewish R1a-M582 (H=0.844) and in Roma R1a-M780 (H=0.759), consistent with founder effects that are evident in the network patterns for these populations (Supplementary Figure 2).

Wich make them believe that Z-93 origin was likely south asia.

They literally call it the Siberian paragroup ;)

See the joining network:

https://media.nature.com/original/na...hg201450x2.pdf

[markod]

Diversity of an haplogroup gonna be higher into a geographical area comprizing multiple and diverse lineages isn't? So obviously even I2 could be more diverse in Kurdistan.

Generally that's how it works, but obviously these methods won't take into account how amenable a region is to the preservation of haplotypes. Perhaps the Pontic-Caspian steppe in particular (more so than the Siberian plain) saw massive Y-DNA turnovers several times.

[halfalp]

They literally call it the Siberian paragroup ;)

See the joining network:

https://media.nature.com/original/na...hg201450x2.pdf

Yes but their argument is that R1a must expand from Iran because of the highest diversity, while the Siberian paragroup R1a Z-93 have the lowest diversity of the other paragroups. Diversity and Genetic Drift are more likely to happened in very populous and genetically diverse regions like middle-east and india, than in very low density population like central asia.

[Pip]

Yes there is absolutely a reason... because it's wrong. No paleolithic or neolithic to date sample fro all that region were R1. No sign of Basal Eurasian into the ancient R1a sample that we got.

No y-DNA has been found at all in many ancient cultures.
Of course, at some point over the 23,000 years between R1's formation and the end of the Neolithic, at least one R1 man would have wandered down the Caspian coastline from the Steppe to Iran.
R1 crops up in Neolithic Spain and in Equatorial Africa, so why would Iran be out of the question?

[Pip]

Omg... so your argument is that ancient R1b-Z2103 from Pontic Steppe is different autosomally than modern Armenian branch. Bravo. No y-dna R1b-Z2103 was found in important sites from Armenia, neither found in Kura-Araxes or Maikop proper, wich does not make sense, there was no hiding R1b-Z2103 in prehistoric Armenia that resurface in modern times. Wich basically means that modern Armenian R1b-Z2103 have an obvious steppic origin linking with the way more obvious fact that Armenia and Armenian are a surviving branch of IE language and culture.

My question was Furthermore, given that (i) Yamnayan Z2103 samples exhibit a highly uniform and stable autosomal mix, and (ii) non-Yamnayan European Z2103 samples are very diverse autosomally (both from Yamnaya and from each other), is there any more likely explanation for this than that their DNA developed separately within different European populations at an earlier date, rather than as part of a single Yamnayan incusion at a later date?
It is about the diversity in European Z2103, not Armenian Z2103.

[halfalp]

No y-DNA has been found at all in many ancient cultures.
Of course, at some point over the 23,000 years between R1's formation and the end of the Neolithic, at least one R1 man would have wandered down the Caspian coastline from the Steppe to Iran.
R1 crops up in Neolithic Spain and in Equatorial Africa, so why would Iran be out of the question?

Fair enough, and what would be is Elbrouz-like autosomal dna? and the mtdna haplogroups coming with him?

" R1 " crops in paleolithic Italy and in modern " not equatorial " Africa, do you feel a subtility? The same group of modern African R1b pops in mesolithic Balkans and neolithic Ukraine / Russia. No subtility yet?

[Pip]

I think the Z2103 in Hajji Firuz has been confirmed by others. It hasn't been dated directly however.

Even if not confirmed Z2103, its calls would at least suggest formative R1b-M269 to be its most likely haplogroup and in any case to indicate that Steppic DNA would have moved into Iran prior to the Chalcolithic.

[halfalp]

My question was Furthermore, given that (i) Yamnayan Z2103 samples exhibit a highly uniform and stable autosomal mix, and (ii) non-Yamnayan European Z2103 samples are very diverse autosomally (both from Yamnaya and from each other), is there any more likely explanation for this than that their DNA developed separately within different European populations at an earlier date, rather than as part of a single Yamnayan incusion at a later date?
It is about the diversity in European Z2103, not Armenian Z2103.

Yes its called multiple founder effects. R1b-Z2103 lost predominance everywhere after the Bronze Age, while it survive pretty good in Anatolia and Armenia. Thanks to mountaneous regions and large genetic diversity. Europe is a geographical bottleneck, while middle-east have more holes than swiss cheese.

[halfalp]

Even if not confirmed Z2103, its calls would at least suggest formative R1b-M269 to be its most likely haplogroup and in any case to indicate that Steppic DNA would have moved into Iran prior to the Chalcolithic.

Probably all R1b subgroups from V-88 to M269 to Z2103 to L23 journey from Balkans or Eastern Europe to the south at some point. It dont even have to be linked with IE languages or Yamnaya to be a fact.

[Pip]

Yes but their argument is that R1a must expand from Iran because of the highest diversity, while the Siberian paragroup R1a Z-93 have the lowest diversity of the other paragroups. Diversity and Genetic Drift are more likely to happened in very populous and genetically diverse regions like middle-east and india, than in very low density population like central asia.

Low density populations would only have lower average STR diversity to the extent that there would have been periods of time when only one man with the haplogroup lived to reach reproductive age.
As long as there are two men with the haplogroup, their descendants' STRs would mutate independently and the diversity between the STRs for the two groups would continue to increase at the same average rate.

[Pip]

Fair enough, and what would be is Elbrouz-like autosomal dna? and the mtdna haplogroups coming with him?

" R1 " crops in paleolithic Italy and in modern " not equatorial " Africa, do you feel a subtility? The same group of modern African R1b pops in mesolithic Balkans and neolithic Ukraine / Russia. No subtility yet?

There were probably numerous R1 men venturing out of the Steppe, temporarily or permanently, over tens of thousands of years; each would have had different autosomal and mitochondrial DNA, depending on their unique chains of ancestry.
The divergence between African V88 and Eurasian V88 is date-estimated by yfull at 5,000 BC; my estimate incorporating STR diversity is slightly longer. Either way, it is indicative of a likely migration during the Neolithic.

[Pip]

Yes its called multiple founder effects. R1b-Z2103 lost predominance everywhere after the Bronze Age, while it survive pretty good in Anatolia and Armenia. Thanks to mountaneous regions and large genetic diversity. Europe is a geographical bottleneck, while middle-east have more holes than swiss cheese.

This could be a vital point. Lost predominance sometimes means near-eradication. The most interesting branches are the ones that survived and re-developed, and these are often not the branches that initially proliferated, nor those for which ancient samples have been found.
The major branch of Z2103 today is an Eastern variety which most likely split from the Yamnayan European branch some time before its colonisation of the Danube basin took place. My suggestion is that it was most likely a minority component within Maykop, and possibly a later major source of the Hittites.

[Silesian]

What do i know?

You know there is a difference in branching between Steppe [Yamnaya], Caucasus, R1b-Z2103 found in Armenian, Ossetians, Bashkirs?

Here is an interesting video @32 minutes the Yamnaya displaced, absorbed or wiped out other Steppe groups; Cucuteni-Trypillia was also nearby Yamnaya and might have suffered a similar fate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucute...pillia_culture

[halfalp]

You know there is a difference in branching between Steppe [Yamnaya], Caucasus, R1b-Z2103 found in Armenian, Ossetians, Bashkirs?

Here is an interesting video @32 minutes the Yamnaya displaced, absorbed or wiped out other Steppe groups; Cucuteni-Trypillia was also nearby Yamnaya and might have suffered a similar fate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucute...pillia_culture

Branching doesn't matter, it only tell us prehistoric R1b-Z2103 from eastern europe and modern R1b-Z2103 from Armenia, are different. But they have ultimately a same origin and a same autosomal dna, same mtdna lineage. Pip point doesn't make sense, populations of Africa with R1b-V88 have also mtdna lineage like U5b that are ultimately european. Modern population have obviously different autosomal dna than ancient one.

[halfalp]

There were probably numerous R1 men venturing out of the Steppe, temporarily or permanently, over tens of thousands of years; each would have had different autosomal and mitochondrial DNA, depending on their unique chains of ancestry.
The divergence between African V88 and Eurasian V88 is date-estimated by yfull at 5,000 BC; my estimate incorporating STR diversity is slightly longer. Either way, it is indicative of a likely migration during the Neolithic.

This is absolutely not true for europe before the neolithic... People tend to keep the same lineages and the same ancestry until populations with multiple lineage and mixtures from the middle-east enter in europe.