Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
There are some outdated informations here about Armenians.
The majority of Armenians are L584 (60% of all R1b). Under L584 there is an obvious Armenian cluster with the age 3200 ybp. This basically put an end to speculations that Armenian R1b is related to Hurrians. Because Hurrians became extinct 3200 ago and it was Armenians who were expanding.
It is this lineage. L584 - > PH4150 https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18781/ formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp
Notice that formation age 4700 ybp and the expansion age nicely fits into what was known linguistically about Armenians.

The next most frequent is L277.1 (27% of all R1b)
The third is the CTS7763 (~7% of all R1b) which Maciamo thinks is Greek. It was found in LBA Armenia in Kapan town. So it doesn't look Greek or alternatively Greeks entered from Anatolia.
The fourth is PF7562 (~5% of all R1b) This branch look like it is a Hittite. It branches before L23. Upstream case is found in Laz NE Turkey. So it could mean that Hittites came from Maykop?
And then we have Khndzoresk young cluster of L51 and few CTS7822 who recently specificaly tested by admins of Armenian DNA project to see how much impact is there from Balkans. Well not much. 6 cases from 1500 people. So this could be Thracians , Phrygians and others.

Basically this confirms the idea that Armenians entered South Caucasus after the Kura-Araxes ended, bringing Kurganic culture into South Caucasus.
Autosomally they look that they are coming from NW of Black Sea.

Initially their territory was small, but at 1200 BC they profited from the chaotic situation in Near East end expanded their territory. This expansion is visible under the Armenian R1b-L584.

Very interesting, Proto-Armenians do seem to be mainly R1b-L584 --> PH4150, what about the Persian or Kurdish R1b ? are they L584 ? the Iranian members in the basal subclades project have Armenian surnames, so I haven't seen any true Persian R1b yet, Maciamo in his article on R1b claimes (I don't know if he changed his view) that R1b-L584 correlates more with the Iranian branch of of Indo-Iranian, while L277 is more Indo Aryan, I see a problem in this view because of the large Armenian subclade, if L584 is Iranian then why is the Armenian language an Independent Indo-European branch separate from Iranian ?

this article discusses the origin of the Proto-Armenians, if L584 came from the north of the black sea then which hypothesis is more plausible from the 3 or 4 possibilities the author discusses here:

There is an interesting Jewish subclade of L584 --> PF7580 --> FGC14598, which also includes one Lebanese member, could it be the Philistines ? the sea peoples that gave their names to Palestine, if that is the case then we should find modern Palestinians that are positive for this snp, if they ever tested.

Albanian R1b is mostly CTS7822, I don't know what to make of this branch, maybe the original lineage of the Thracians ? it exists in Bulgaria and Romania, the homeland of the Thracians, but also in Russia, Italy, and Spain and so it could have spread with the Goths after they assimilated the native Thracians or Dacians, if we were to assume that then we should expect the Thracian and Dacian languages to be similar to Albanian.

Finally I agree that PF7562 is better classified as Hittite, it is an old subclade descending directly from R1b-M269, one problem though, its frequency is about 3% in Turkey, isnt that too low to make it the principal lineage of the Hittites ?