Do you have a quote about Z93 basal diversity pointing to Central Asia in the Paper? I only see the following.

Y-STR haplotype networks and diversity

We genotyped a subset of 1355 R1a samples for 10–19 Y-chromosome STR loci (Supplementary Table 3) and constructed networks for both hg R1a-Z282 and hg R1a-Z93 (Supplementary Figure 1 and Supplementary Figure 2). Although we could assign haplotypes to various haplogroups, power to identify substructure within hg R1a-M198 was limited, consistent with previous work.22, 52 Although haplotype diversity is generally very high (H>0.95) in all haplogroups (Supplementary Table 3), lower diversities occur in south Siberian paragroup R1a-Z93* (H=0.921), in Jewish R1a-M582 (H=0.844) and in Roma R1a-M780 (H=0.759), consistent with founder effects that are evident in the network patterns for these populations (Supplementary Figure 2).

Wich make them believe that Z-93 origin was likely south asia.

They literally call it the Siberian paragroup ;)

See the joining network:

https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/extref/ejhg201450x2.pdf
 
Diversity of an haplogroup gonna be higher into a geographical area comprizing multiple and diverse lineages isn't? So obviously even I2 could be more diverse in Kurdistan.

Generally that's how it works, but obviously these methods won't take into account how amenable a region is to the preservation of haplotypes. Perhaps the Pontic-Caspian steppe in particular (more so than the Siberian plain) saw massive Y-DNA turnovers several times.
 
They literally call it the Siberian paragroup ;)

See the joining network:

https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/extref/ejhg201450x2.pdf

Yes but their argument is that R1a must expand from Iran because of the highest diversity, while the Siberian paragroup R1a Z-93 have the lowest diversity of the other paragroups. Diversity and Genetic Drift are more likely to happened in very populous and genetically diverse regions like middle-east and india, than in very low density population like central asia.
 
Yes there is absolutely a reason... because it's wrong. No paleolithic or neolithic to date sample fro all that region were R1. No sign of Basal Eurasian into the ancient R1a sample that we got.
No y-DNA has been found at all in many ancient cultures.
Of course, at some point over the 23,000 years between R1's formation and the end of the Neolithic, at least one R1 man would have wandered down the Caspian coastline from the Steppe to Iran.
R1 crops up in Neolithic Spain and in Equatorial Africa, so why would Iran be out of the question?
 
Omg... so your argument is that ancient R1b-Z2103 from Pontic Steppe is different autosomally than modern Armenian branch. Bravo. No y-dna R1b-Z2103 was found in important sites from Armenia, neither found in Kura-Araxes or Maikop proper, wich does not make sense, there was no hiding R1b-Z2103 in prehistoric Armenia that resurface in modern times. Wich basically means that modern Armenian R1b-Z2103 have an obvious steppic origin linking with the way more obvious fact that Armenia and Armenian are a surviving branch of IE language and culture.
My question was Furthermore, given that (i) Yamnayan Z2103 samples exhibit a highly uniform and stable autosomal mix, and (ii) non-Yamnayan European Z2103 samples are very diverse autosomally (both from Yamnaya and from each other), is there any more likely explanation for this than that their DNA developed separately within different European populations at an earlier date, rather than as part of a single Yamnayan incusion at a later date?
It is about the diversity in European Z2103, not Armenian Z2103.
 
No y-DNA has been found at all in many ancient cultures.
Of course, at some point over the 23,000 years between R1's formation and the end of the Neolithic, at least one R1 man would have wandered down the Caspian coastline from the Steppe to Iran.
R1 crops up in Neolithic Spain and in Equatorial Africa, so why would Iran be out of the question?

Fair enough, and what would be is Elbrouz-like autosomal dna? and the mtdna haplogroups coming with him?

" R1 " crops in paleolithic Italy and in modern " not equatorial " Africa, do you feel a subtility? The same group of modern African R1b pops in mesolithic Balkans and neolithic Ukraine / Russia. No subtility yet?
 
I think the Z2103 in Hajji Firuz has been confirmed by others. It hasn't been dated directly however.
Even if not confirmed Z2103, its calls would at least suggest formative R1b-M269 to be its most likely haplogroup and in any case to indicate that Steppic DNA would have moved into Iran prior to the Chalcolithic.
 
My question was Furthermore, given that (i) Yamnayan Z2103 samples exhibit a highly uniform and stable autosomal mix, and (ii) non-Yamnayan European Z2103 samples are very diverse autosomally (both from Yamnaya and from each other), is there any more likely explanation for this than that their DNA developed separately within different European populations at an earlier date, rather than as part of a single Yamnayan incusion at a later date?
It is about the diversity in European Z2103, not Armenian Z2103.

Yes its called multiple founder effects. R1b-Z2103 lost predominance everywhere after the Bronze Age, while it survive pretty good in Anatolia and Armenia. Thanks to mountaneous regions and large genetic diversity. Europe is a geographical bottleneck, while middle-east have more holes than swiss cheese.
 
Even if not confirmed Z2103, its calls would at least suggest formative R1b-M269 to be its most likely haplogroup and in any case to indicate that Steppic DNA would have moved into Iran prior to the Chalcolithic.

Probably all R1b subgroups from V-88 to M269 to Z2103 to L23 journey from Balkans or Eastern Europe to the south at some point. It dont even have to be linked with IE languages or Yamnaya to be a fact.
 
Yes but their argument is that R1a must expand from Iran because of the highest diversity, while the Siberian paragroup R1a Z-93 have the lowest diversity of the other paragroups. Diversity and Genetic Drift are more likely to happened in very populous and genetically diverse regions like middle-east and india, than in very low density population like central asia.
Low density populations would only have lower average STR diversity to the extent that there would have been periods of time when only one man with the haplogroup lived to reach reproductive age.
As long as there are two men with the haplogroup, their descendants' STRs would mutate independently and the diversity between the STRs for the two groups would continue to increase at the same average rate.
 
Fair enough, and what would be is Elbrouz-like autosomal dna? and the mtdna haplogroups coming with him?

" R1 " crops in paleolithic Italy and in modern " not equatorial " Africa, do you feel a subtility? The same group of modern African R1b pops in mesolithic Balkans and neolithic Ukraine / Russia. No subtility yet?
There were probably numerous R1 men venturing out of the Steppe, temporarily or permanently, over tens of thousands of years; each would have had different autosomal and mitochondrial DNA, depending on their unique chains of ancestry.
The divergence between African V88 and Eurasian V88 is date-estimated by yfull at 5,000 BC; my estimate incorporating STR diversity is slightly longer. Either way, it is indicative of a likely migration during the Neolithic.
 
Yes its called multiple founder effects. R1b-Z2103 lost predominance everywhere after the Bronze Age, while it survive pretty good in Anatolia and Armenia. Thanks to mountaneous regions and large genetic diversity. Europe is a geographical bottleneck, while middle-east have more holes than swiss cheese.
This could be a vital point. Lost predominance sometimes means near-eradication. The most interesting branches are the ones that survived and re-developed, and these are often not the branches that initially proliferated, nor those for which ancient samples have been found.
The major branch of Z2103 today is an Eastern variety which most likely split from the Yamnayan European branch some time before its colonisation of the Danube basin took place. My suggestion is that it was most likely a minority component within Maykop, and possibly a later major source of the Hittites.
 
You know there is a difference in branching between Steppe [Yamnaya], Caucasus, R1b-Z2103 found in Armenian, Ossetians, Bashkirs?

Here is an interesting video @32 minutes the Yamnaya displaced, absorbed or wiped out other Steppe groups; Cucuteni-Trypillia was also nearby Yamnaya and might have suffered a similar fate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni–Trypillia_culture

Branching doesn't matter, it only tell us prehistoric R1b-Z2103 from eastern europe and modern R1b-Z2103 from Armenia, are different. But they have ultimately a same origin and a same autosomal dna, same mtdna lineage. Pip point doesn't make sense, populations of Africa with R1b-V88 have also mtdna lineage like U5b that are ultimately european. Modern population have obviously different autosomal dna than ancient one.
 
There were probably numerous R1 men venturing out of the Steppe, temporarily or permanently, over tens of thousands of years; each would have had different autosomal and mitochondrial DNA, depending on their unique chains of ancestry.
The divergence between African V88 and Eurasian V88 is date-estimated by yfull at 5,000 BC; my estimate incorporating STR diversity is slightly longer. Either way, it is indicative of a likely migration during the Neolithic.

This is absolutely not true for europe before the neolithic... People tend to keep the same lineages and the same ancestry until populations with multiple lineage and mixtures from the middle-east enter in europe.
 
This is absolutely not true for europe before the neolithic... People tend to keep the same lineages and the same ancestry until populations with multiple lineage and mixtures from the middle-east enter in europe.
On what basis do you arrive at this conclusion? Why would people from the Middle East mix, but not people from Europe? Why would people coming in from the Middle East then also make them start to mix? I'm not convinced.
Pre-Neolithic Northern European populations were in any case a mix of Western and Eastern Hunter Gatherer lineages. Yamnayans were, in any case, a mix of Eastern Hunter Gatherer and Iranian-like DNA. We're even told that some Paleolithics mixed with Neanderthals, leaving a small remnant of Neanderthal in present day European DNA.
 
Branching doesn't matter, it only tell us prehistoric R1b-Z2103 from eastern europe and modern R1b-Z2103 from Armenia, are different. But they have ultimately a same origin and a same autosomal dna, same mtdna lineage. Pip point doesn't make sense, populations of Africa with R1b-V88 have also mtdna lineage like U5b that are ultimately european. Modern population have obviously different autosomal dna than ancient one.
Chalcolithic Z2103 samples from East Central Europe have both a strikingly different autosomal DNA and a different mitochondrial DNA mix to those from Russia. Russian samples have a significant Iranian-like component, and Balkan samples have a substantial input from indigenous European farmers.
African V88 with European mtDNA lineages shows the women (as well as the men) were prepared to move very long distances away from the Steppe during the Neolithic.
 
On what basis do you arrive at this conclusion? Why would people from the Middle East mix, but not people from Europe? Why would people coming in from the Middle East then also make them start to mix? I'm not convinced.
Pre-Neolithic Northern European populations were in any case a mix of Western and Eastern Hunter Gatherer lineages. Yamnayans were, in any case, a mix of Eastern Hunter Gatherer and Iranian-like DNA. We're even told that some Paleolithics mixed with Neanderthals, leaving a small remnant of Neanderthal in present day European DNA.

WHG and EHG is only the Input of ANE into WHG, it's not a big differentiation, and it lasted maybe even 10'000 millenia. Neolithic was Anatolia_N, Levante_N, Iran_N, Basal Eurasian ( if we imagine it existed somwhere in a very pure form ), CHG... HG's had a very low density population making a population distant of thousands of miles being the same autosomally, but farmers because of demographic explosions had every centuries to migrate somwhere else to encounter new people. The proof is, for 30'000 years, europe had only y-dna C1a,I and R with mtdna U2,u4,U5,U8,R,M ( a part M, all related in ancestry ) while neolithic in only couple of centuries had develop and absorb so many lineages ( mtdna H have like 95 subgroups ) and expanded so intensively, it is absolutely not the same story. Neanderthal addition doesn't change too much because it probably happened in a very small group and only resurface here and there with exchange of ancestry like Goyet -> El Miron.
 
Chalcolithic Z2103 samples from East Central Europe have both a strikingly different autosomal DNA and a different mitochondrial DNA mix to those from Russia. Russian samples have a significant Iranian-like component, and Balkan samples have a substantial input from indigenous European farmers.
African V88 with European mtDNA lineages shows the women (as well as the men) were prepared to move very long distances away from the Steppe during the Neolithic.

Ok i'm confused... that autosomal dna between an Ukrainian population and an Armenian one ( with the same haplogroup ) is confusing to you? Because i'm R1b-L2, but i dont have the same autosomal dna than an Iberian R1b-L2, it sounds pretty logic in term of genetic no? Do modern Indian people of R1a-Z93 have the same autosomal dna as the Bulgarian Chalcolithic R1a-Z93? Dont be silly. And your point about men and women having the behavioral reasoning to move long distance, i dont know what to thinka bout it.
 
I was responding to your post Originally Posted by halfalp - Branching doesn't matter, it only tell us prehistoric R1b-Z2103 from eastern europe and modern R1b-Z2103 from Armenia, are different. But they have ultimately a same origin and a same autosomal dna, same mtdna lineage.

You seemed to be saying that Z2103 from Eastern Europe and Z2103 from Armenia had the same autosomal DNA and mtDNA.
That is my point - even within Eastern European Z2103, the autosomal DNA and mtDNA is strikingly different. By 3,000-2,800 BC, although these people had a male ancestor in common, they were living within families drawn from very different ancestral roots. I only raised this point as circumstantial evidence to indicate that their most recent common male ancestor might have been earlier than some imagine, and pre-dated the emergence of the Yamnayan culture.

We are straying off the point a bit, which is the modern distribution of Z2103. There seem to be two major strands of it - the European one and the Eastern one centred around the Caucasus/Northern Turkey. I am interested in whether the Eastern strand descends from a section of Caspian Yamnaya, Maykop and/or the Hittites. Is there any DNA evidence in relation to this?

 

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