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Thread: Modern distribution of R1b-Z2103

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  1. #1
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    4 members found this post helpful.

    Modern distribution of R1b-Z2103

    The new Haak et al. 2015 paper confirmed that Yamna Proto-Indo-Europeans belonged to haplogroup R1b. Four out of six R1b samples from the Volga-Ural region belonged to the R1b-Z2103 subclade, a branch of what used to be called R1b-ht35, the eastern variant of R1b-M269. Obviously the samples tested were on the far north-eastern reaches of the Yamna horizon, and I expect that samples from more southern and western areas of Yamna would yield other R1b subclades, notably the L51 branch from which Western Europeans descend.

    We can reasonably assume that all R1b-M269 samples that once fit into the ht35 or L23* category are Z2103, simply because there are only two known subclade under L23 : L51 (ht15) and Z2103 (ht35).



    What is not clear from my European map above is that Z2103 has a very wide distribution covering also Central Asia, South Asia and West Asia.

    Most of the R1b in Asia on the map below is either M73 or Z2103, although the latter is dominant everywhere.



    According to the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project, Z2103 has five main subclades.

    - L584 (including L943) : found mostly in the South Caucasus, Turkey, Iraq and Iran, but also in Poland, Germany and Austria.

    - L277.1 : found in Russia, Central Asia, Bulgaria, India and the Middle East (Iraq, Lebanon).

    - CTS7822 (including CTS9219) : found in Russia (including Chuvashia), Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, the Balkans, Armenia, Italy, Spain, Britain and Ireland.

    - CTS7763 : found in Turkey, Bulgaria and Italy.

    - Z2109 : found in Germany and Scotland.


    Overall the distribution of the bulk of Z2103 samples is reminiscent of that of R1a-Z93.

    For example R1b-L277.1 seems to have expanded from Russia to Central Asia then to India and the Middle East, just like the R1a-L657 subclade of Z93.

    R1b-L584 looks more Mitanni, Iranian, Scythian and maybe also Armenian. It's West Asian distribution matches that of the R1a-Z2124 subclade of Z93.

    R1b-CTS7822 is mostly central and eastern European and correlates more with R1a-Z280.

    R1b-CTS7763 appears to be confined to the greater ancient Greece (not data from Greece itself, but most of the Greek R1b-L23 could belong to this subclade considering its presence in South Italy and West Anatolia). It doesn't seem to correlate with any R1a subclade.


    I wouldn't be surprised if the eastern Yamna Z2103 samples tested later formed the Poltavka culture, which eventually merged with the Abashevo culture to form the Sintashta culture (presumably the main source of Asian R1a-Z93). Through a founder effect or through political domination, R1a-Z93 lineages would have become far more numerous than R1b-Z2103 after the expansion to Central and South Asia.

    What is certain is that one of the Z2103 samples came from the Orenburg oblast just south of the Urals, in what was soon to become the Poltavka culture. I already envisioned this scenario in my migrations maps 5 years ago, and the current data is in perfect agreement with it. Back then Z2103 had not yet been discovered, so I couldn't have made predictions about it. Even today data is very scarce about L23 subclades, especially among Volga-Ural ethnic groups, in Central Asia and in the Balkans.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 13-02-15 at 11:07.
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    Why has no one mentioned Bashkirs? They're very high in RM269, and are probably Z2013. They also live in today's Samara.This shows that western Yamna would probably be similar to what Ukraine is like today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Why has no one mentioned Bashkirs? They're very high in RM269, and are probably Z2013. They also live in today's Samara.This shows that western Yamna would probably be similar to what Ukraine is like today.
    Why do you say "no one" when I am the only person who had posted in this thread until then ?

    As I said above there is very little data on L23 subclades from the Volga-Ural region at the moment. I checked all the FTDNA projects (Bashkir Suyun, Bashkorostan, Chuvash, Tatars, Mordovians) and only found deep L23 subclades tested for the Chuvash. As I explained, there is a good chance that most if not all L23 in the region is Z2103, as well as in Central and South Asia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    R1b-Z2105 in Volga region (according to Trofimova 2015)
    36.2% Burzyan Bashkirs
    21.2% Udmurts
    8.0% Komi
    6.8% Erzya and Moksha
    3.8% Besermyan
    2.3% Chuvash
    0% Mari
    0% Kazan Tatars,
    0% Bashkirian Tatars,
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    R1b-Z2105 in Volga region (according to Trofimova 2015)
    36.2% Burzyan Bashkirs
    21.2% Udmurts
    8.0% Komi
    6.8% Erzya and Moksha
    3.8% Besermyan
    2.3% Chuvash
    0% Mari
    0% Kazan Tatars,
    0% Bashkirian Tatars,
    Thanks for that info. So, it's as high in parts of Russia as in west Asia. Now the R1b-Z2103 in Samara Yamnas makes more sense.

    As of far 3/3 Corded ware have R1a1-M417, 3/3 Bell beaker have R1b(One was tested for P312 and was positive), all but a few of the dozens of Y DNA samples from Bronze-Iron age IE north Asians have R1a, 2/2 Mesolithic Russians have R1b1* and R1a1*, and Upper Palaeolithic MA-1 has R*.

    That's an incredible continuum and dominance of Y DNA R in pre-historic ANE-heavy pops of Europe and north Asia. None of the Yamna R1bs were related, all their paternal lineages were not connected recently. This wasn't the result of a recent founder effect, Yamna legitally had a very high amount of R1b.

    Who's to say R1b-L11 in west Europe is not descended of the steppe? It's pretty obvious now that we know Yamna and modern eastern Russians have a high amount of L51's brother Z2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Thanks for that info. So, it's as high in parts of Russia as in west Asia. Now the R1b-Z2103 in Samara Yamnas makes more sense.

    As of far 3/3 Corded ware have R1a1-M417, 3/3 Bell beaker have R1b(One was tested for P312 and was positive), all but a few of the dozens of Y DNA samples from Bronze-Iron age IE north Asians have R1a, 2/2 Mesolithic Russians have R1b1* and R1a1*, and Upper Palaeolithic MA-1 has R*.

    That's an incredible continuum and dominance of Y DNA R in pre-historic ANE-heavy pops of Europe and north Asia. None of the Yamna R1bs were related, all their paternal lineages were not connected recently. This wasn't the result of a recent founder effect, Yamna legitally had a very high amount of R1b.

    Who's to say R1b-L11 in west Europe is not descended of the steppe? It's pretty obvious now that we know Yamna and modern eastern Russians have a high amount of L51's brother Z2013.
    Actually, there are four Corded Ware samples so far. And while the two German samples from 2600 BC are R1a1, the two Polish samples from 2800 BC are G? and J or I?, which requires some explaining if Corded Ware was a totaling intrusive and possibly complete replacement population as suggested in this new paper.

    It is interesting that the most recently discovered German Bell Beaker R1b from 2299-2206 BC is P312S/S116.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    R1b-Z2105 in Volga region (according to Trofimova 2015)
    36.2% Burzyan Bashkirs
    21.2% Udmurts
    8.0% Komi
    6.8% Erzya and Moksha
    3.8% Besermyan
    2.3% Chuvash
    0% Mari
    0% Kazan Tatars,
    0% Bashkirian Tatars,
    Thanks, I hadn't seen this study published only a few weeks ago. Very timely.

    However, after checking the original paper (I have access to the full paper) I do not see any mention of Z2105, Z2103 or even L23. The data you mentioned is just for R1b-M269. I know for a fact that the Bashkirs have a few percent's of Celtic R1b (U152, L2) and Central Asian R1b-M73. So it's not all Z2103.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks, I hadn't seen this study published only a few weeks ago. Very timely.

    However, after checking the original paper (I have access to the full paper) I do not see any mention of Z2105, Z2103 or even L23. The data you mentioned is just for R1b-M269. I know for a fact that the Bashkirs have a few percent's of Celtic R1b (U152, L2) and Central Asian R1b-M73. So it's not all Z2103.
    From Trofimova work
    http://s011.radikal.ru/i318/1502/37/e3e67e8052d7.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Thanks again. This was not included in the paper in English. Some percentages don't match the paper in English. For example the Mari have 0% of R1b, but have apparently 2% on the graph. Do you have the link to the paper in Russian ?

    Here is the translation for those who don't read Cyrillic.

    - Bashkirs : 36.2% of Z2105, about 5.2% of M73 and 1.7% of L51/M412
    - Chuvash : 2.3% of Z2105
    - Komi : 8% of Z2105, 4% of L23* and 3% of L51
    - Mari : 2% of L51
    - Mordvinians : 7% of Z2103 and 3% of M405/U106/S21
    - Kazan Tatars : 1.9% of M73
    - Tuymazinsky Tatars : 15% of M405/U106/S21 and 2% of L51
    - Udmurts : 21.2% of Z2105
    - Besermyans : 3.8% of Z2105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks again. This was not included in the paper in English.
    It is in Russian
    http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/zashita/2...imovaDiser.pdf

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    very interesting

    it must have been a very mobile tribe

    what about Armenians / Phrygians ?
    on the move and entering history 1200 BC or a bit later

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    Let's say R1b-L23 originated and spread out of modern Russia.

    It's debatable where R1b-M269 originated, but M269's brother M73 as far as know is centered in central and north Asia. This supports a north Eurasian origin of R1b-P297. Other R1b could have orignated somewhere else.

    As of far we already have R1b1* from Mesolithic Samara and Neolithic Spain ancestral to P297. The R1b1* from Spain could be coming out of Russia or west Asia. But considering R1a1* has been found in Mesolithic Karelia, and most modern R1a is decended out of the same area most modern R1b is, I tend to think R1 in general might be from north Eurasia.

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    The interesting thing is
    E1b1b1 G2a J2a J2b in Uralic and Turkic populations of Volga region

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    excuse me for my ignorance,
    but aren't Bashkirs speaking a Turkic language?
    is this not an area that has been 'visited' many times by different nomadic horseriding tribes?
    on the other hand the area is rich in copper ores, so I suppose even if another tribe came to 'visit', the local smiths stayed in the area
    I mean, I would expect the Bashkirs to be a mixture of many different ethnicities

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    excuse me for my ignorance,
    but aren't Bashkirs speaking a Turkic language?
    is this not an area that has been 'visited' many times by different nomadic horseriding tribes?
    on the other hand the area is rich in copper ores, so I suppose even if another tribe came to 'visit', the local smiths stayed in the area
    I mean, I would expect the Bashkirs to be a mixture of many different ethnicities
    Like most Turkic populations in Central Asia today, the Bashkirs were originally an Iranian people who became Turkicized between the 6th and the 11th century. If you look at pictures of Bashkir people, some look very European, while others look very Mongoloid. I suppose that the 58 samples in this study aren't very representative. Lobov et al. 2009 tested 471 Bashkirs separated in eight districts, and there were very big differences in haplogroup composition. For example the Baymaksky and Perm districts had 81% and 84% of R1b-M269, the Abzielilowsky district had 55% of R1b-M73 and 7% of R1b-M269, while the Steribashevky district had no R1b at all ! Western Orenburg had 17% of Mongolian haplogroup C, while eastern Orenburg had 65% of Uralic N1c1. Huge regional variations. What matters here is that I could find a link between R1a-Z2125 and R1b-Z2103, confirming that both are found in the region of origin of the Indo-Aryans and that they therefore could have spread together during the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Like most Turkic populations in Central Asia today, the Bashkirs were originally an Iranian people who became Turkicized between the 6th and the 11th century. If you look at pictures of Bashkir people, some look very European, while others look very Mongoloid. I suppose that the 58 samples in this study aren't very representative. Lobov et al. 2009 tested 471 Bashkirs separated in eight districts, and there were very big differences in haplogroup composition. For example the Baymaksky and Perm districts had 81% and 84% of R1b-M269, the Abzielilowsky district had 55% of R1b-M73 and 7% of R1b-M269, while the Steribashevky district had no R1b at all ! Western Orenburg had 17% of Mongolian haplogroup C, while eastern Orenburg had 65% of Uralic N1c1. Huge regional variations. What matters here is that I could find a link between R1a-Z2125 and R1b-Z2103, confirming that both are found in the region of origin of the Indo-Aryans and that they therefore could have spread together during the Bronze Age.
    I guess it will be hard to find out which clades were in the area 4000 years ago, and which clades arrived later
    I remembered they spoke Turkic, but with that much R1a / R1b I'm not surprised they look Indo-European
    and even the 19 % N1c, seems to be Uralic N1c1a, not Turkic N1c2
    the 81 or 84 % R1b-M269 is that M269* or is it just not checked for subclades ?
    if it is M269*, they are a special group , this couldn't be coincidence
    and with this part of M73 included maybe they were another early split like Anatolian and Tocharian, with some IE language now extinct

    If I recall well from reading David Anthony the Indo-Iranians started to spread from east of the southern Urals (with arsenic copper ores) , and not west (with pure copper ores)
    But maybe David Anthony also told where they were prior to that

    I must say, I tought myself too that R1b-Z2103 was in the vicinity of some R1a-Z93 tribe when the Indo-Iranic expansion started, but as most Indo-Iranian went east and southeast, most R1b-Z2103 went west, they would be Srubnaya
    When I think of it : the Z2103 Yamnaya samples found in Samara were 3300-2700 BC, by then Corded Ware got started , so Z2103 must then allready have been situated between R1a-Z283 ot the west and R1a-Z93 to the east

    R1a-Z2125 was Andronovo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the 81 or 84 % R1b-M269 is that M269* or is it just not checked for subclades ?
    if it is M269*, they are a special group , this couldn't be coincidence
    and with this part of M73 included maybe they were another early split like Anatolian and Tocharian, with some IE language now extinct
    They didn't test downstream of M269. I originally proposed in 2009 that the Tocharians descended from the M73 branch (although not all M73 are Tocharian, of course). I now think they could have been a mixture of R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-M73.

    R1a-Z2125 was Andronovo?
    Andronovo was predominantly R1a-Z93, and most if not all Z93 subclades would have been part and would have appeared during Andronovo period, including Z2125 (Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125).

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    I think we cannot rely entirely upon modern populations to track the past, when speaking of relatively low %s - as said, some populations changed language during History but also some mixings occurred at modern times, the Russians being the pole of "redistribution" I think -
    Y-E1b is the most surprising, if not from modern Russian (but...) the other "southern" Y-HGroups could go back to the BMAC-Steppics contact (and even osmosis) of Neolithic or Metal Ages (G2a unsure too? we would wait rather G2b? but steppics had conatcs with Tripolje too, so)

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    I now think they could have been a mixture of R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-M73.
    According to prof. Hui Zhou - though this result is not yet officially published - Tocharian R1a was not Z93:

    LINK: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-70...mments#2168698

    Hui Zhou (2014-07-18 16:14) Jilin University

    Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

    Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belonging to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which is mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to HgM25 in India, and in our study it was not HgM25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

    In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde Winters
    Hui Zhou suggest that the origin of the Xiaohe mummies are of Indo-European origin. In the main article the authors claim that Xiaohe “is different from any other archaeological site of the same period anywhere in the world”. Yet now Hui says the Xiaohe was similar to the Afanaseivo culture. (...) The Afanaseivo culture is characterized by chariots, pottery, timber chamber and rectangular stone enclosure burials, inhumation and creamation. (...)

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    But if not Z93, then what could it be ???

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    BTW - that Clyde Winters, who commented below the paper on Tocharians, is this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DesPF-6-WCE

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    There are some outdated informations here about Armenians.
    The majority of Armenians are L584 (60% of all R1b). Under L584 there is an obvious Armenian cluster with the age 3200 ybp. This basically put an end to speculations that Armenian R1b is related to Hurrians. Because Hurrians became extinct 3200 ago and it was Armenians who were expanding.
    It is this lineage. L584 - > PH4150 https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18781/ formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp
    Notice that formation age 4700 ybp and the expansion age nicely fits into what was known linguistically about Armenians.

    The next most frequent is L277.1 (27% of all R1b)
    The third is the CTS7763 (~7% of all R1b) which Maciamo thinks is Greek. It was found in LBA Armenia in Kapan town. So it doesn't look Greek or alternatively Greeks entered from Anatolia.
    The fourth is PF7562 (~5% of all R1b) This branch look like it is a Hittite. It branches before L23. Upstream case is found in Laz NE Turkey. So it could mean that Hittites came from Maykop?
    And then we have Khndzoresk young cluster of L51 and few CTS7822 who recently specificaly tested by admins of Armenian DNA project to see how much impact is there from Balkans. Well not much. 6 cases from 1500 people. So this could be Thracians , Phrygians and others.

    Basically this confirms the idea that Armenians entered South Caucasus after the Kura-Araxes ended, bringing Kurganic culture into South Caucasus.
    Autosomally they look that they are coming from NW of Black Sea.

    Initially their territory was small, but at 1200 BC they profited from the chaotic situation in Near East end expanded their territory. This expansion is visible under the Armenian R1b-L584.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    There are some outdated informations here about Armenians.
    The majority of Armenians are L584 (60% of all R1b). Under L584 there is an obvious Armenian cluster with the age 3200 ybp. This basically put an end to speculations that Armenian R1b is related to Hurrians. Because Hurrians became extinct 3200 ago and it was Armenians who were expanding.
    It is this lineage. L584 - > PH4150 https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18781/ formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp
    Notice that formation age 4700 ybp and the expansion age nicely fits into what was known linguistically about Armenians.

    The next most frequent is L277.1 (27% of all R1b)
    The third is the CTS7763 (~7% of all R1b) which Maciamo thinks is Greek. It was found in LBA Armenia in Kapan town. So it doesn't look Greek or alternatively Greeks entered from Anatolia.
    The fourth is PF7562 (~5% of all R1b) This branch look like it is a Hittite. It branches before L23. Upstream case is found in Laz NE Turkey. So it could mean that Hittites came from Maykop?
    And then we have Khndzoresk young cluster of L51 and few CTS7822 who recently specificaly tested by admins of Armenian DNA project to see how much impact is there from Balkans. Well not much. 6 cases from 1500 people. So this could be Thracians , Phrygians and others.

    Basically this confirms the idea that Armenians entered South Caucasus after the Kura-Araxes ended, bringing Kurganic culture into South Caucasus.
    Autosomally they look that they are coming from NW of Black Sea.

    Initially their territory was small, but at 1200 BC they profited from the chaotic situation in Near East end expanded their territory. This expansion is visible under the Armenian R1b-L584.

    Very interesting, Proto-Armenians do seem to be mainly R1b-L584 --> PH4150, what about the Persian or Kurdish R1b ? are they L584 ? the Iranian members in the basal subclades project have Armenian surnames, so I haven't seen any true Persian R1b yet, Maciamo in his article on R1b claimes (I don't know if he changed his view) that R1b-L584 correlates more with the Iranian branch of of Indo-Iranian, while L277 is more Indo Aryan, I see a problem in this view because of the large Armenian subclade, if L584 is Iranian then why is the Armenian language an Independent Indo-European branch separate from Iranian ?

    this article discusses the origin of the Proto-Armenians, if L584 came from the north of the black sea then which hypothesis is more plausible from the 3 or 4 possibilities the author discusses here:
    http://armscoop.com/wp-content/uploa...al-Review1.pdf

    There is an interesting Jewish subclade of L584 --> PF7580 --> FGC14598, which also includes one Lebanese member, could it be the Philistines ? the sea peoples that gave their names to Palestine, if that is the case then we should find modern Palestinians that are positive for this snp, if they ever tested.

    Albanian R1b is mostly CTS7822, I don't know what to make of this branch, maybe the original lineage of the Thracians ? it exists in Bulgaria and Romania, the homeland of the Thracians, but also in Russia, Italy, and Spain and so it could have spread with the Goths after they assimilated the native Thracians or Dacians, if we were to assume that then we should expect the Thracian and Dacian languages to be similar to Albanian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classi...acian#Albanian
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin..._Dacian_origin

    Finally I agree that PF7562 is better classified as Hittite, it is an old subclade descending directly from R1b-M269, one problem though, its frequency is about 3% in Turkey, isnt that too low to make it the principal lineage of the Hittites ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Albanian R1b is mostly CTS7822, I don't know what to make of this branch, maybe the original lineage of the Thracians ? it exists in Bulgaria and Romania, the homeland of the Thracians, but also in Russia, Italy, and Spain and so it could have spread with the Goths after they assimilated the native Thracians or Dacians, if we were to assume that then we should expect the Thracian and Dacian languages to be similar to Albanian.
    Language and people are two different things. If you keep them too close together in your mind, things become confused. So far we don't even know if we should place Thracians more to the predominantly R1a people or more to the R1b ones. The lexica of the language itself is more closely related to the baltic languages than with the Albanian and the latter can hardly be closely related to the baltic languages. So we have either a balto-thracian group and an Albanian (Illyrian?) or all three are distinct, (and distinct to the slavic languages as well).

    Another point is the time frame. We don't know how old the thracian language branch really is, therefore we can't place Thracians in a specific Haplogroup. You can see how tricky this is with the slavic languages. They converge roughly 1500-2000 years ago in the Balkans, but the 'west slavic' languages are spoken by dominantly M458 people, who split from the Balkan people at least 2000 years before the 'origin' of the slavic languages. The consequences of this is that you can't call Poles or Sorbs Slavs even if they speak a slavic language. The same goes for Romanians, you can't call them Romans as well, just because they speak a Romance language. So language and people often are separated in space and time and assigning haplogroups to languages is full of errors.

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    Ossetian is also CTS 7822. Alans and Sarmatians.

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