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Thread: Do the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars descend from Carpathian Goths ?

  1. #26
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    1 members found this post helpful.


    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

    Not my etymology.
    What I meant is that sometimes you don't have to look for overcomplicated etymologies based on corrupted words from extinct languages to find a link between two ethnic groups, especially if the DNA shows similarities.
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    Country: Sweden



    In the 13th century, Western Cumans became Catholic Christians, while Eastern assumed Islam. The Catholic "Diocese of the Cumans" included Romania and Moldova. This title was kept until 1523. The principality of Wallachia was established by Basarab I, son of the Cumanian warlord Tihomir of Wallachia at the beginning of the 14th century. The name Basarab is considered as being of Cuman origin, meaning "Father King".

    http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-...mily&id=I28387

    http://www.academia.edu/10035068/THE...PAIGNS_IN_1091

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I have analysed the autosomal data of Volga Republics to try to confirm what the possibility of Gothic genetic contribution to the region, as suggested by the Y-DNA.

    It turns out that the Mordvins are most similar to the Czechs in terms of admixture percentages. The Mordvins just have a bit more ANE and East Asian, as expected from their 10% of Uralic N1c1. Note that the Czechs have the highest percentage of Germanic ancestry of any Slavic population (11% I1, 6% R1b-U106, 4% I2a2). The Goths who reached the Black Sea in the 4th century were almost certainly a blend of Germanic and Proto-Slavic people from modern day Poland and western Ukraine.

    The Slovaks are also close, but have less Gedrosian admixture than either the Czechs or the Mordvins. This correspond with the fact that Slovaks also have less R1b (as Gedrosian admixture in Europe correlates with R1b).

    The Poles have more East European and less West Asian than the Mordvins or Czechs.

    The Romanians have less Northwest European and more Mediterranean, West Asian, Southwest Asian and Caucasian than the Mordvins. The relatively high percentages of E1b1b, G2a and J2 in the Mordvin population is not well reflected by Near Eastern or Mediterranean autosomal admixtures. In other words, these haplogroups may simply have come from the Iron Age population of Poland and western Ukraine, and not from the Goths mixing with Romanian or Moldovan populations.


    The Chuvash are very similar to the Mordvins autosomally, but with a bit more East European and a bit less Northwest European. They also have more East Asian (because of their 28% of N1c) and less Mediterranean.

    No autosomal data is available for the Tatars, Udmurts, Komi, Mari or Bashkirs.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 17-02-15 at 17:29.

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    Swedish Vikings

    I agree that Z140 has a heavy North Sea Germanic bias but to say its typically "german" really seems to underplay just how widespread this SNP is amongst Dutch , Frisians, Danes and Scanians over the past 2000 plus years . Given that Z140+ clades would certainly have existed in the East Norse speaking areas of Southern Sweden during the Viking age I think you can't rule out that some of these individuals didn't take their Y dna to Russia and beyond. Also I think soon we will see with wider snp testing that Denmark is and has long been chock full of Z140+ clades and that Danish Vikings & Settlers implanted much Z140 into N & E England , Sth Wales and E Scotland post 800 a.d as well as leaving traces of it all along the Atlantic coast from France down to Portugal and Spain due to their seafaring abilities.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1-Z140
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16

    Ethnic group
    russian/erzya
    Country: Russian Federation



    Mordovians

    - Germanic : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and 1.7% of R1a-M458

    - Slavic : 32% of R1a-CTS1211 and 1.7% of R1a-Z282

    - Balkanic : 10.2% of E-M78, 10.2% of J2b, 5.1% of J2a, 3.4% of G2a3b1, and 1.7% of J*.

    - Uralic : 10% of N1c1

    - Turkic : 0% of N1c2
    Firstly such people as Mordvinians does not exist. There Moksha and Erzya.
    Secondly you have bad data, that data separately for Moksha and Erzyan who provided the author publication (Trofimova):
    Last edited by Shtrun; 19-04-15 at 12:27.

  6. #31
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    You have a strange limit on the links, I can not insert a table.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    I checked the I1 subclades in the FTDNA projects for Mordovia and Tatarstan, and found the following subclades (N.B. no I1 subclade tested for Chuvashia).

    - Mordovians: Z59, Z60, Z63 (2x), Z140 (2x), CTS743
    This incorrect data in the project who indicated which group. I am the administrator of the Erzya-Moksha DNA project (Mordovia project does not exist in principle).

    Erzya:
    I1-M253+ - 1 member (subclade undefined)
    I1-Z63+ - 2 member
    Moksha:
    not to members haplogroup I1
    Russian (Ethnogroup Ryazan Meshchera):
    I1-Z140+ - 4 member (This is me and my family. Most likely it is the ancestor of a German prisoner.)
    Russian:
    I1-L1248+ - 1 member
    I1-L1302+ - 1 member

  8. #33
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    The same is true for the Mordovian samples, who belong to deep subclades like DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140 or DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>CTS7362>CTS9352>Z73>CTS743.
    Another mistake. ))

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

    Not my etymology.
    Easier to use self-designation:


    Moksha and Erzya, there will be no confusion with the Moldovans.

  10. #35
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The name Mordva is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word mard meaning "man". The Mordvin word mirde denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: mort and perhaps even in Mari: marij.[13]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Moldova

    According to a legend recorded by Moldavian prince Dimitrie Cantemir in the 17th century, the first Moldavian ruler, Dragoş, named the country he founded after one of his hounds, Molda, who died during the hunt of an aurochs in the lands of the future principality.[1]


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    Let's start with the fact that the words "Mordva/Mordvinians" in the language of Moksha and Erzya places without. ))

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    In one of the earliest studies (Malaspina et al.) of the haplogroups was a fun bug there were listed:
    Moldovans-Moksha and Moldovans-Erzya. ))

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    I edited the above message with the results for Moksha and Erzya in Trofimova 2015.
    Duplicate table:

  14. #39
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    Data from other publications

    Tambets et al.(2004)
    Moksha (Staroshaygovsky District of Mordovia) n=83

    R1a - 26,5%
    N3 (TAT) - 16,9%
    R1b - 13,3%
    I1 - 12%
    I2b - 4,8%
    N2 (P43) - 2,4%
    I2 - 2,4%
    K*(M9) - 1,2%
    NO (M214) - 0%
    N*(M231) - 0%
    N1 (M128) - 0%
    O (M175) - 0%
    J2 - nd
    E3b - 0%

    Malaspina et al. (2003) n=46

    Erzya R1a1 - 45,7%
    Moksha R1a1 - 21,7%

    Malaspina et al. (2000) n=62

    Moksha+Erzya R1a - 39%

    Lahermo et al. (1999)

    Erzya n=52

    N1с (Tat-С) - 6/52 (12%)
    DE (Yap) - 0/52 (0%)

    Moksha n=73
    N1c (Tat-С) - 6/73 (8%)
    DE (Yap) - 0/73 (0%)

    Bermisheva et al. (2001) Erzya n=50
    DE (YAP+) = 4% (2/50)
    N (LLY22) = 8% (4/50)
    Other = 88% (44/50)

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/erzya-moksha-dna-project/about/goals

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    All publications and project data show that the proportion of Erzya R1a is significantly higher than that of Moksha:


    There are differences in the R1b. In Erzya mainly Eastern European Z2105+, then Moksha we do not see.


    And the biggest difference is in the presence of a significant percentage at Moksha Mediterranean haplogroup E-M78 and J2b.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    Regarding the etymology of Moldova

    It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
    the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

    Balto-Slavicized variants:

    Râu în Moldova
    Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
    Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
    Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
    Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
    Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
    Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
    Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
    Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
    Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
    Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
    Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
    Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



    Gothic variants:

    Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

    Molde în Norvegia
    Moldjord, Norvegia
    Moldegard, Norvegia
    Moldestad, Norvegia
    Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
    Moldbjerg, Danemarca
    Moldenit, Germania
    Moldes, Spania
    Moldones, Spania
    Moldgreen, Marea Britanie
    Would not be so hard to translate from Romanian to English ,so people here knows what you are posting.
    I will translate later,if you do not,now I am too lazy to do this.
    As for the name of the river,this is how the female dog of first King of Moldavia,Dragos Voda was called,Molda.
    http://adevarul.ro/locale/iasi/legen...b7e/index.html
    (the article is in Romanian).
    What is written there,according to the legend from Moldavia,Dragos Voda,first ruler of Moldavia,was hunting.
    He shoot with the arrow a large kind of bison,that was living those times in Moldova.
    The bison went to the waters of the river Moldova and the hunting female dog of the king,after the bison,in the waters of the river.
    The dog has drown and to remember about the dog,the King named that water Moldova,from Molda.
    Now,I do not know in what countries Molda is used to name female beings,but I doubt is coming from the Germanic mold.

  17. #42
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Mordovians

    - Germanic : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and 1.7% of R1a-M458

    Chuvash

    - Germanic : 7% of I1, and 4.7% of R1a-M458

    Tatars

    - Germanic : 9.5% of I1, 7% of R1b-U106, 3.9% of R1a-M458 and 1% I2-M223
    Since when is R1a-M458 "Germanic"? It is most common among West Slavic and East Slavic peoples.

    Percent of R1a-M458 by population:

    Czechs - 30,2%
    Poles - 26,6%
    Poles from Wroclaw - 23,7%
    Ukrainians from Cherkassy - 22,8%
    Belarusians from Brest-Litovsk - 22,7%
    Slovaks - 21,4%
    Croats from interior - 19,5%
    Ukrainians from Lviv - 18,2%
    Ukrainians from Ivano-Frankivsk - 17,9%
    Belarusians - 15,4% or 12,7%
    Ukrainians from Donetsk - 15,1%
    Russians from Oryol - 14,7%
    Russians from Pskov - 12,5%
    Russians from Kostroma - 11,3%
    Russians from Belgorod - 11,2%
    Russians - 9,2%
    Ukrainians from Khmilnyk - 7,8%
    Bulgarians - 7,4%
    Ukrainians from Akkerman - 5,4%

    Germanic populations don't have it, except for these with a lot of Slavic ancestry: Germans and Austrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristina
    If ancient I1 has not been found in Germany or Scandinavia, it does not mean that it cannot be found elsewhere.
    And it was - we have ca. 7500 years old I1 from Hungary from Neolithic LBKT culture.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    Regarding the etymology of Moldova

    It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
    the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

    Balto-Slavicized variants:

    Râu în Moldova
    Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
    Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
    Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
    Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
    Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
    Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
    Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
    Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
    Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
    Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
    Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
    Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



    Gothic variants:

    Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

    Molde în Norvegia
    Moldjord, Norvegia
    Moldegard, Norvegia
    Moldestad, Norvegia
    Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
    Moldbjerg, Danemarca
    Moldenit, Germania
    Moldes, Spania
    Moldones, Spania
    Moldgreen, Marea Britanie

    interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I have not a precise subclade surveys at hand, Maciamo has - so I 'll only repeat what I remember from readings:
    what I noticed (and wrote about germanics, some years ago) is that in Norway the Y-I1 regional distriibution seems showing a late enough introduction in the country, from South so Denmark?), later for the most than Y-R1a itself - for Y-R1b it's harder to decide because some R1bs could have reached Southwestern Norway by Sea, not across South Sweden - very rough, all that!
    Russian scholars seem thinking Y-I1a is older in North Russia than believed and that it has no link with proto- or Historic Germanics moves - no links too concerning some ligneages of Finland Y-I1
    concerning the language which was apparently spoken in the today finnic lands, I don't believe there is any link with a proto-uralic - the only links made by someone (forgotten the name) are with a supposed proto-basque language (among finnic speaking Saami, the same man spoke of a kind of I-E primitive language on the way to satem or in a stage without centumization... both before introduction of Uralic - very vague but it can exclude some hypothesis evocated here -

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    Regarding the etymology of Moldova

    It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
    the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

    Balto-Slavicized variants:

    Râu în Moldova
    Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
    Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
    Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
    Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
    Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
    Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
    Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
    Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
    Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
    Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
    Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
    Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



    Gothic variants:

    Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

    Molde în Norvegia
    Moldjord, Norvegia
    Moldegard, Norvegia
    Moldestad, Norvegia
    Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
    Moldbjerg, Danemarca
    Moldenit, Germania
    Moldes, Spania
    Moldones, Spania
    Moldgreen, Marea Britanie

    interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte

    My apologies for responding so late,Moesan!

    Yes,"-ava/-ova",a well-known Slavic suffix,is the most reliable option in this case.
    The alternative form,"-va",was used not only as suffix,but also as a second compound.
    For instance, Max Vasmer belived that "-va" means "river,water",he proposed analogies such as the Latvian river Muldupe(upe=river),Russian river Moldvaz(voz=river branch).

    Without any doubt,there are certain barriers for me,as a hobbyist,for I randomly gather the information;not to mention, assembling this big puzzle called "linguistics", is not an easy task.

    A tout a l'heure!

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    According to Endzelīns, -ava, -uva in Baltic languages are used
    1)to denote place. Place characteristics + -ava. Kelmava (place of kelms, stomps of trees), Dumbrava (swampy land),
    2) for living beings of some characteristics. Guļava - sleepy (from guļ+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), jaunava (virgin, jaun+ava).

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    What you do not know ,Maciamo,is that Dacians were disliking a lot plains and only loving places with mountains.
    So I do not think that these people are descendants of Goths that left Carpathians from Romania and went to Russia.
    You should also know that in the people inhabiting mountains from Romania,J1 is absent,J2 is low,like maximum 5%.
    Also,I2-din is very high in people from Carpathians.So if they are from Carpathians,where is there I2 in significant percentage?
    There is not possible that they are from Carpathians with 15% J2 and under 5% I2-din.
    So they have 2-3 times the percentage of E-M78 compared to I2-din.
    Since they have so much E-M78,J2 and only after I2,they could have been originated in Albania,not in Romania.
    EDIT:
    I do not think they moved from there willingly since Albanians are also loving mountainous areas,I think Tatars took them as slaves.

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    Another "IE" key position held by non-Indoeuropean peoples. It is a typical "Indoeuropeans were assimilated by clever non-IE's"-job. Even though very interesting.

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