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Thread: Do the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars descend from Carpathian Goths ?

  1. #51
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian
    http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html


    Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:

    Alb. enё “a vessel” – Mok. en’a “a scoop”;
    Alb. kapёrdij “to swallow” – Mok. kapordams “to swallow”, Erz. koporks “to swallow”;
    Alb. kofšё “thigh” – Erz. kačo “thigh”, Mok. kače "abkle";
    Alb. keqe “evil” – Mok., Erz. k’až “evil”;
    Alb. bizele “peas” – Mok., Erz. pizёl “berries of mountain ash”;
    Alb. rroj "to live" – Mok., Erz. er’ams "to live".
    Some Albanian-Mordvinic correspondences have matches in other neighbouring languages:
    Alb. tani “today” – Mok. t’ani “now” (Mari tenij “today”, Est täna “today”);
    Alb. dobёt “quiet” – Mok. topafks “satiety” , Erz topafty “sated” (Mari typ “quiet”);
    Alb. turi “muzzle” – Mok, Erz trva “a lip” (Mari t’arvö “a lip”);
    Alb. bretkosё “frog” – Mok. vatraksh “frog” (Greek βατραχοσ “frog”, Rom broasca"frog" as possible spoiled Thracian substratum) etc.
    Alb. piče “pine-tree” – Mok, Erz piči “pine-tree” (the words of this root are present in other Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages but they mainly “galipot”, for example, Lat picis, Gr πισσα, but Lat picea “pine-tree” remains something far;
    Alb zhavor “gravel” – Mok šuvar “sand” (this word in several different forms was spread in the Baltic and Slavic languages).





    Modrovia seems to be very close to that upper right green area on J2b map, so this is very interesting. Does anyone know more precise DNA picture of Mordovians?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Btw, those folk look very close to Yamna autosomally, maybe the closest modern folk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian
    http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html


    Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:


    Alb. enё “a vessel” – Mok. en’a “a scoop”;
    Alb. kapёrdij “to swallow” – Mok. kapordams “to swallow”, Erz. koporks “to swallow”;
    Alb. kofšё “thigh” – Erz. kačo “thigh”, Mok. kače "abkle";
    Alb. keqe “evil” – Mok., Erz. k’až “evil”;
    Alb. bizele “peas” – Mok., Erz. pizёl “berries of mountain ash”;
    Alb. rroj "to live" – Mok., Erz. er’ams "to live".
    Some Albanian-Mordvinic correspondences have matches in other neighbouring languages:
    Alb. tani “today” – Mok. t’ani “now” (Mari tenij “today”, Est täna “today”);
    Alb. dobёt “quiet” – Mok. topafks “satiety” , Erz topafty “sated” (Mari typ “quiet”);
    Alb. turi “muzzle” – Mok, Erz trva “a lip” (Mari t’arvö “a lip”);
    Alb. bretkosё “frog” – Mok. vatraksh “frog” (Greek βατραχοσ “frog”, Rom broasca"frog" as possible spoiled Thracian substratum) etc.
    Alb. piče “pine-tree” – Mok, Erz piči “pine-tree” (the words of this root are present in other Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages but they mainly “galipot”, for example, Lat picis, Gr πισσα, but Lat picea “pine-tree” remains something far;
    Alb zhavor “gravel” – Mok šuvar “sand” (this word in several different forms was spread in the Baltic and Slavic languages).





    Modrovia seems to be very close to that upper right green area on J2b map, so this is very interesting. Does anyone know more precise DNA picture of Mordovians?


    as everytime when somebody wants to proove something and mâkes a list of "cognates", someones are confusing or interestong and others, phonetically, seems without any links between them - and someones are common loanwords from a "bigger" different language - my thought - maybe I like faith?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    According to Endzelīns, -ava, -uva in Baltic languages are used
    1)to denote place. Place characteristics + -ava. Kelmava (place of kelms, stomps of trees), Dumbrava (swampy land),
    2) for living beings of some characteristics. Guļava - sleepy (from guļ+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), jaunava (virgin, jaun+ava).

    Thanks for post (I'm late, not enough time tor ead every thread) - the question is: is a suffix found in placenames only a specific suffix restricted to placenames, or a more general suffix, ALSO used in placenames? Just an aside question in this thread, it's true!

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    @ Shtrun:
    interesting
    concerning Mordvins, we could suppose the cmomon "hat" name was given these 2 distinct groups for they were now living in a same region were a so called Mordvin population was living before? or it is an unprecise EXONYM? just a suggestion by an ignorant on the matter
    interesting to see the Y-haplos very different distribtions which shows a different sgenetic story for the 2 groups in cause (the distributionS of J, E and R1b are hardly explicable by the only drift upon small population, at first thinking) - pity the samples are not bigger in each group

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    I don't know if that can help, but I red soemthing about 3 slavic "ethnies" of Ruthenia, it's to say a corner region in North Carpathians, for the most in far Western Ukraina, but spanning a bit over Southeastern Poland, Eastern Slovakia and Northwestern Romania: Hutsuls/gutsuls, Lemko's and Boyko's; about mt DNA only - drift seems evident according to them - Hutsuls are closer to Croats than to Ukrainians, and very far from Boyko's their neighbours! The most "of their own" are the Bojko's, far from every surrounding populations,

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    Boyko's mt DNA is close to LBK/AVK's one (Alföld successors, close to Szakàlhàt-Esztàr-Bükk) but would be EVEN CLOSER TO UDMURT mtDNA; I don't know if this can help in this thread, because the weight is put on "MORDVINS"; it seems showing at least a link between North Carpathians slopes and Steppes female ligneages since Neolithic if not earlier; the Hutsuls are closer to mainland Croats and Lemko's, spite not so close, seem having some ties with Krk island in N-W Croatia (relatively high levels of mt I + mt M* (far Asia introgression?); the question is: how to link these ressemblances and differences to historic moves of people when we see the Steppes were a boulevard for tribes of any kind? And the drifts in mountainous regions (like to Caucasus) come to tangle things!
    to answer Maciamo, a Carpathians Goths desplacing of populations could have taken place, but the proves are tiny; Y-I1 even if globally typical for Germanics was preset in far North-East before historic Goths, I think, and the "southern" ligneages (J,E,G) were there maybe before, since Tripolye times for the most of them?
    Sorry for a very inconclusive post!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @ Shtrun:
    interesting
    concerning Mordvins, we could suppose the cmomon "hat" name was given these 2 distinct groups for they were now living in a same region were a so called Mordvin population was living before? or it is an unprecise EXONYM? just a suggestion by an ignorant on the matter
    interesting to see the Y-haplos very different distribtions which shows a different sgenetic story for the 2 groups in cause (the distributionS of J, E and R1b are hardly explicable by the only drift upon small population, at first thinking) - pity the samples are not bigger in each group
    @MOESAN:
    Mordva it certainly EXONYM. Such people do not have. Moksha and Erzya not understand each other and to communicate using the Russian language. In the Moksha and Ersa languages ​​there is no word "Mordva." The area of ​​residence does not intersect, although living nearby.


    Moksha and Erzya are descendants of Ryazan-Oka Finn culture. This culture was destroyed some nomads (the archaeologists have not yet found out what kind of nomads). Some people went into the forest and become Meschera which later assimilated by the Slavs (krivichi). Another part went to the river Tesha, there emerged Erzya. And the third went to the flow of the river Sura, where there moksha. Erzya not mix. Moksha were affected by some steppe populations. As a result, Moksha gained a darker pigmentation, national costume has changed, changed the language (eg phonetics), and changed the composition of haplogroups.

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    @ Shtrun
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian
    http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html


    Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:

    Alb. enё “a vessel” – Mok. en’a “a scoop”;
    Alb. kapёrdij “to swallow” – Mok. kapordams “to swallow”, Erz. koporks “to swallow”;
    Alb. kofšё “thigh” – Erz. kačo “thigh”, Mok. kače "abkle";
    Alb. keqe “evil” – Mok., Erz. k’až “evil”;
    Alb. bizele “peas” – Mok., Erz. pizёl “berries of mountain ash”;
    Alb. rroj "to live" – Mok., Erz. er’ams "to live".
    Some Albanian-Mordvinic correspondences have matches in other neighbouring languages:
    Alb. tani “today” – Mok. t’ani “now” (Mari tenij “today”, Est täna “today”);
    Alb. dobёt “quiet” – Mok. topafks “satiety” , Erz topafty “sated” (Mari typ “quiet”);
    Alb. turi “muzzle” – Mok, Erz trva “a lip” (Mari t’arvö “a lip”);
    Alb. bretkosё “frog” – Mok. vatraksh “frog” (Greek βατραχοσ “frog”, Rom broasca"frog" as possible spoiled Thracian substratum) etc.
    Alb. piče “pine-tree” – Mok, Erz piči “pine-tree” (the words of this root are present in other Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages but they mainly “galipot”, for example, Lat picis, Gr πισσα, but Lat picea “pine-tree” remains something far;
    Alb zhavor “gravel” – Mok šuvar “sand” (this word in several different forms was spread in the Baltic and Slavic languages).





    Modrovia seems to be very close to that upper right green area on J2b map, so this is very interesting. Does anyone know more precise DNA picture of Mordovians?

    It is interesting findings.

    Because Mordvins have 10.2% J2b according:
    https://www.facebook.com/cultural.an...73532489371574

    Unfortunately, disertation of Trofimova is not avaliable.

    I found one her paper and several authors from 2015 but they gave only haplogroup J, Mordvins: 16.9%.

    It is possible that data 10.2% J2b for Mordvins is accurate, if it is right Mordvins have the most percent J2b haplogroup in that region.

    You're probably right, some link between Mordvins and Albanians exists, maybe these two population lived together somewhere in Ukraine, Romania, Carpatian region, etc., maybe Maciamo is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is interesting findings.

    Because Mordvins have 10.2% J2b according:
    https://www.facebook.com/cultural.an...73532489371574

    Unfortunately, disertation of Trofimova is not avaliable.

    I found one her paper and several authors from 2015 but they gave only haplogroup J, Mordvins: 16.9%.

    It is possible that data 10.2% J2b for Mordvins is accurate, if it is right Mordvins have the most percent J2b haplogroup in that region.

    You're probably right, some link between Mordvins and Albanians exists, maybe these two population lived together somewhere in Ukraine, Romania, Carpatian region, etc., maybe Maciamo is right.



    Mordva an artificial term is Moksha and Erzya, which differ genetically. Data from this work I showed in this topic. Frequencies of Moksha and Erzya I gave myself Trofimova:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post455146

    With Albanians Us questionable, there is another subclade.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    the problem with supposed "cognates" is when you try to make a list - with some precise goal - you put in it every kind of words with close significations and POSSIBLE linked sounds, often without checking the homogeneity of mutational paths between the concerned languages. When we know the big number of forms consonnants can take by time and loans we can with an agenda make full lists of "cognates". And sometimes "cognates" - often when they are phonetically too close, they are loanwords in the two compared languages from a third one. Historical phonetics is a very difficult occupation...
    That said, the female ligneages in Eastern Europe and Western Russian Steppes could be linked to an ancient stratum too quickly qualified "Near-Eastern Neolithic"; some of these ligneages could be local female mediated penetrated at Neolithic by Anatolian males AND females (other female lignages of true Near-Eastern or Anatolian origin) through Balkans before taking part in the famous Cucuteni-Tripolye culture; I think Tripolye people played a big role in the surrounding regions of Steppes, before Yamnaya and after it (even upon one of the Catacomb group). The respective links between the 2 "Mordvin" groups and Carpathians-East-Balkans could recall us these influences which left some traces before other modifications? the supposed eastern position of Albanians ancestors in S-E Europe could explain some links between them and these "Mordvins", at some level? All speculation it's true.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My opinion on this (I use the stats of Maciamo)

    The migration might have worked this way. From South to North. So these Turkic speaking groups have some Greek ancestry. Even if it isn't Greek it's Balkan but I stand by what I say for the following reasons.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

    Mordovians

    10.2% of E-M78, 10.2% of J2b, 5.1% of J2a, 3.4% of G2a3b1, and 1.7% of J*, 3.4% of I1, 1.7% I2-M223


    Chuvash

    14% of E-M78, 9.3% of J2a, 4.7% of J2b,4.7% of I2a1b, and 2.3% of J1, 7% of I1


    Tatars

    9.5% of I1, 1% I2-M223, 8% of G2a3, 7.9% of J2a, 4% of J2b, 3% of E-M78, 2% of I2a1b and 1% of J1.

    ^ All those haplogroups are found to some extent in Balkans, even those who peak in Scandinavia like I1. The presence of E-M78, especially, proves the origin of many of them from the Balkans (R1a and N haplogroups were already there).

    -- vatraksh
    Also this word, at least, is practicallly the same with the modern Greek one βάτραχος /vatrakhos/. Ancient Greek reconstructed pronunciation is 'batrakhos' though, so someone can support that it is a more recent loan. How does that work though?

    I wrote in another forum that the following translation from the Wikipedia article has an obvious problem

    Herodotus describes the Bhudini people, east of the Ister (Danube) River, thusly: [4.108] The Bhudini are a large and powerful nation: they all have deep blue eyes), and bright red hair. There is a town in their country called Gelonus which is made out of wood. Each side of its high outer wall is thirty stades long, made entirely of wood, and wood has been used for all its houses and shrines too. They have sanctuaries there which are dedicated to the Greek gods and equipped in the Greek manner with statues, altars and buildings of wood; and every third year they celebrate a festival of Dionysus and become possessed by the god. The Bhudini, however, differ from the Gelonians in both language and lifestyle. The Bhudinians, who are nomadic, are the indigenous inhabitants of the country, and they are the only race there to eat lice, whereas the Geolonians are farmers, grain-eaters and gardeners; moreover, the two sets of people are altogether dissimilar in appearance and colouring.... The land is entirely covered with forests of every conceivable species of tree. In the largest forest there is a large, wide lake, surrounded by a reedy marsh. They capture otters and beavers in this lake, and also a square-faced creature whose skin they sew as a trimming on to their jackets, and whose testicles are good for healing diseases of the womb.[

    They didn't eat lice. They ate pine nuts probably in my opinion because the word 'φθειρ' also meant 'pine cone' according to the best Ancient Greek dictionary. Κουκουνάρι = pine cone.


    φθείρ, , γεν.φθειρός· δοτ. πληθ. φθειρσί· 1. ψείρα, Λατ. pediculus, σε Ηρόδ., Αριστοφ. 2.σκουλήκι στα λαχανικά, σε Λουκ. 3. κουκουνάρι κωνοφόρου δέντρου.

    So we have, the red-haired/blue eyed Budini , who were probably Turkic (or Uralic) Hunter-Gatherers, while the Hellenes Gelonians were farmers and with darker pigmentation.
    Last edited by A. Papadimitriou; 13-05-16 at 14:32.

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    Jordanes claimed a number of people fell under great Gothic kings Ermanarics rule:

    Among the tribes he [Ermanarich] conquered were the Golthescytha, Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinabroncae, Merens, Mordens, Imniscaris, Rogas, Tadzans, Athaul, Navego, Bubegenae and Coldae
    The Mordens are usually considered the Mordvins. The Meren a people called Merya or Mari.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    (...) The combination of Germanic (I1, I2a2a, R1b-U106), Slavic (R1aCTS1211, R1a-Z282 and R1a-M458) and Balkanic (E-M78, G2a3, I2a1b, J1, J2a, J2b) lineages suggests that the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars could be descended from a branch of the 4th-century Goths from the Chernyakhov culture in Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

    The Near Eastern haplogroups do look as if they had come straight from the Balkans and Carpathians because:


    1. The dominant haplogroup is E-M78 (including E-V13 confirmed from FTDNA projects), not the Middle Eastern E-M34, which is completely absent.
    2. About half of haplogroup J2 is the Balkanic J2b. The roughly 50-50 proportion between J2a and J2b is only found in Southeast Europe.
    3. Most of the G2a is the (Indo-)European G2a3b1, not Middle Eastern subclades.
    4. There is some I2a1b too, which could either be Slavic or Balkanic.
    5. J1 is the rarest haplogroup, contrarily to the Middle East where it is the second most common after J2a.


    Trofimova et al. 2015 only tests about 50 samples from each ethnicity, which is not very representative in terms of frequencies, but gives a very good idea of what haplogroups are present in each group.

    Mordovians

    - Germanic : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and 1.7% of R1a-M458

    - Slavic : 32% of R1a-CTS1211 and 1.7% of R1a-Z282

    - Balkanic : 10.2% of E-M78, 10.2% of J2b, 5.1% of J2a, 3.4% of G2a3b1, and 1.7% of J*.

    - Uralic : 10% of N1c1

    - Turkic : 0% of N1c2
    This is verry interesting and also can explain resemblance between Moldova and Mordovia.

    All my known 160-200+ years ancestors lived in the same small area in southern Romania.
    I received a recent DNA result and I was wondering why besides Y - G2a2b2a, I have in the result 2% of Mordovia (the only percentage of NE Europe). But also, I think this can explain NW-Euro percents... Germany+France+Scandinavia 10% + England others 8.7% in addition to 2/3 Balkan.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-Z43
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5F

    Ethnic group
    italian
    Country: Italy



    I am r-z43 is gotico origin?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    This is verry interesting and also can explain resemblance between Moldova and Mordovia.

    All my known 160-200+ years ancestors lived in the same small area in southern Romania.
    I received a recent DNA result and I was wondering why besides Y - G2a2b2a, I have in the result 2% of Mordovia (the only percentage of NE Europe). But also, I think this can explain NW-Euro percents... Germany+France+Scandinavia 10% + England others 8.7% in addition to 2/3 Balkan.
    The name Mordva is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word mard meaning "man". The Mordvin word mirde denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: mort and perhaps even in Mari: marij.[13]
    'Erzya' is thought to derive from the Persian: arshan‎ – man. The first written mention of Erzya is considered to be in a letter dated to 968 AD by Joseph the Khazar khaqan in the form of arisa, and sometimes thought to be in the works of Strabo and Ptolemy called as Aorsy and Arsiity respectively. Estakhri from the 10th century has recorded among the three groups of the Rus people the al-arsanija whose king lived in the town of Arsa. The people have sometimes identified by scholars as Erzya, sometimes as the aru people and also as Udmurts. It has been suggested by historians that the town Arsa may refer to either the modern Ryazan or Arsk[10] In the 14th century the name Erzya is considered to be mentioned in the form of ardzhani by Rashid-al-Din Hamadani,[14] and as rzjan by Jusuf, the Nogaj khan[15] In Russian sources the ethnonym Erza first appears in the 18th century.[16]
    'Moksha' is thought to derive from the name of the Moksha River (an Iranian hydronym in origin, cognate to Sanskrit: moksha "releasing, causing to flow").[17] The earliest written mention of Moksha in the form of Moxel is considered to be in the works of a 13th-century Flemish traveler William of Rubruck and in the Persian chronicle Rashid-al-Din who reported the Golden Horde being in war with the Moksha and the Ardzhans (Erzia). In Russian sources 'Moksha' appears from the 17th century.[18]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins


    The name "Moldova" derives from the Moldova River; the valley of this river served as a political centre at the time of the foundation of the Principality of Moldavia in 1359.[20] The origin of the name of the river remains unclear. According to a legend recounted by Moldavian chroniclers Dimitrie Cantemir and Grigore Ureche, Prince Dragoș named the river after hunting an aurochs: following the chase, the prince's exhausted hound Molda drowned in the river. The dog's name, given to the river, extended to the Principality.[21]
    For a short time in the 1990s, at the founding of the Commonwealth of Independent States, the name of the current Republic of Moldova was also spelled "Moldavia".[22] After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the country began to use the Romanian name, Moldova. Officially, the name Republic of Moldova is designated by the United Nations.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova


    Both the Czech name Vltava and the German name Moldau are believed to originate from the old Germanic words *wilt ahwa ("wild water"; compare Latin aqua).[6] In Annales Fuldenses (872 AD) it is called Fuldaha; from 1113 AD it is attested as Wultha. In Chronica Boemorum (1125 AD) it is attested for the first time in its Bohemian form as Wlitaua.[3]
    On the other side there is a river Ltava in Ukraine with no traces of Germanic origins. The name of a settlement on this river was mentioned in the Hypatian Chronicle in 1174, traditionally connected to the name of the city of Poltava, Ukraine. There are many theories describing etymology of Ltava.[7]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vltava

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