Do the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars descend from Carpathian Goths ?

Regarding the etymology of Moldova

It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

Balto-Slavicized variants:

Râu în Moldova
Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



Gothic variants:

Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

Molde în Norvegia
Moldjord, Norvegia
Moldegard, Norvegia
Moldestad, Norvegia
Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
Moldbjerg, Danemarca
Moldenit, Germania
Moldes, Spania
Moldones, Spania
Moldgreen, Marea Britanie
Would not be so hard to translate from Romanian to English ,so people here knows what you are posting.
I will translate later,if you do not,now I am too lazy to do this.
As for the name of the river,this is how the female dog of first King of Moldavia,Dragos Voda was called,Molda.
http://adevarul.ro/locale/iasi/lege...regiuni-1_51691503053c7dd83f036b7e/index.html
(the article is in Romanian).
What is written there,according to the legend from Moldavia,Dragos Voda,first ruler of Moldavia,was hunting.
He shoot with the arrow a large kind of bison,that was living those times in Moldova.
The bison went to the waters of the river Moldova and the hunting female dog of the king,after the bison,in the waters of the river.
The dog has drown and to remember about the dog,the King named that water Moldova,from Molda.
Now,I do not know in what countries Molda is used to name female beings,but I doubt is coming from the Germanic mold.
 
Maciamo said:
Mordovians

- Germanic : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and 1.7% of R1a-M458

Chuvash

- Germanic : 7% of I1, and 4.7% of R1a-M458

Tatars

- Germanic : 9.5% of I1, 7% of R1b-U106, 3.9% of R1a-M458 and 1% I2-M223

Since when is R1a-M458 "Germanic"? It is most common among West Slavic and East Slavic peoples.

Percent of R1a-M458 by population:

Czechs - 30,2%
Poles - 26,6%
Poles from Wroclaw - 23,7%
Ukrainians from Cherkassy - 22,8%
Belarusians from Brest-Litovsk - 22,7%
Slovaks - 21,4%
Croats from interior - 19,5%
Ukrainians from Lviv - 18,2%
Ukrainians from Ivano-Frankivsk - 17,9%
Belarusians - 15,4% or 12,7%
Ukrainians from Donetsk - 15,1%
Russians from Oryol - 14,7%
Russians from Pskov - 12,5%
Russians from Kostroma - 11,3%
Russians from Belgorod - 11,2%
Russians - 9,2%
Ukrainians from Khmilnyk - 7,8%
Bulgarians - 7,4%
Ukrainians from Akkerman - 5,4%

Germanic populations don't have it, except for these with a lot of Slavic ancestry: Germans and Austrians.
 
Kristina said:
If ancient I1 has not been found in Germany or Scandinavia, it does not mean that it cannot be found elsewhere.

And it was - we have ca. 7500 years old I1 from Hungary from Neolithic LBKT culture.
 
Regarding the etymology of Moldova

It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

Balto-Slavicized variants:

Râu în Moldova
Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



Gothic variants:

Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

Molde în Norvegia
Moldjord, Norvegia
Moldegard, Norvegia
Moldestad, Norvegia
Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
Moldbjerg, Danemarca
Moldenit, Germania
Moldes, Spania
Moldones, Spania
Moldgreen, Marea Britanie

interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte
 
I have not a precise subclade surveys at hand, Maciamo has - so I 'll only repeat what I remember from readings:
what I noticed (and wrote about germanics, some years ago) is that in Norway the Y-I1 regional distriibution seems showing a late enough introduction in the country, from South so Denmark?), later for the most than Y-R1a itself - for Y-R1b it's harder to decide because some R1bs could have reached Southwestern Norway by Sea, not across South Sweden - very rough, all that!
Russian scholars seem thinking Y-I1a is older in North Russia than believed and that it has no link with proto- or Historic Germanics moves - no links too concerning some ligneages of Finland Y-I1
concerning the language which was apparently spoken in the today finnic lands, I don't believe there is any link with a proto-uralic - the only links made by someone (forgotten the name) are with a supposed proto-basque language (among finnic speaking Saami, the same man spoke of a kind of I-E primitive language on the way to satem or in a stage without centumization... both before introduction of Uralic - very vague but it can exclude some hypothesis evocated here -
 
Regarding the etymology of Moldova

It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

Balto-Slavicized variants:

Râu în Moldova
Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



Gothic variants:

Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

Molde în Norvegia
Moldjord, Norvegia
Moldegard, Norvegia
Moldestad, Norvegia
Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
Moldbjerg, Danemarca
Moldenit, Germania
Moldes, Spania
Moldones, Spania
Moldgreen, Marea Britanie

interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte
 

interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte


My apologies for responding so late,Moesan!

Yes,"-ava/-ova",a well-known Slavic suffix,is the most reliable option in this case.
The alternative form,"-va",was used not only as suffix,but also as a second compound.
For instance, Max Vasmer belived that "-va" means "river,water",he proposed analogies such as the Latvian river Muldupe(upe=river),Russian river Moldvaz(voz=river branch).

Without any doubt,there are certain barriers for me,as a hobbyist,for I randomly gather the information;not to mention, assembling this big puzzle called "linguistics", is not an easy task.

A tout a l'heure!
 
According to Endzelīns, -ava, -uva in Baltic languages are used
1)to denote place. Place characteristics + -ava. Kelmava (place of kelms, stomps of trees), Dumbrava (swampy land),
2) for living beings of some characteristics. Guļava - sleepy (from guļ+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), jaunava (virgin, jaun+ava).
 
What you do not know ,Maciamo,is that Dacians were disliking a lot plains and only loving places with mountains.
So I do not think that these people are descendants of Goths that left Carpathians from Romania and went to Russia.
You should also know that in the people inhabiting mountains from Romania,J1 is absent,J2 is low,like maximum 5%.
Also,I2-din is very high in people from Carpathians.So if they are from Carpathians,where is there I2 in significant percentage?
There is not possible that they are from Carpathians with 15% J2 and under 5% I2-din.
So they have 2-3 times the percentage of E-M78 compared to I2-din.
Since they have so much E-M78,J2 and only after I2,they could have been originated in Albania,not in Romania.
EDIT:
I do not think they moved from there willingly since Albanians are also loving mountainous areas,I think Tatars took them as slaves.
 
Another "IE" key position held by non-Indoeuropean peoples. It is a typical "Indoeuropeans were assimilated by clever non-IE's"-job. Even though very interesting.
 
I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian
http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html


Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:

Alb. enё “a vessel” – Mok. en’a “a scoop”;
Alb. kapёrdij “to swallow” – Mok. kapordams “to swallow”, Erz. koporks “to swallow”;
Alb. kofšё “thigh” – Erz. kačo “thigh”, Mok. kače "abkle";
Alb. keqe “evil” – Mok., Erz. k’až “evil”;
Alb. bizele “peas” – Mok., Erz. pizёl “berries of mountain ash”;
Alb. rroj "to live" – Mok., Erz. er’ams "to live".
Some Albanian-Mordvinic correspondences have matches in other neighbouring languages:
Alb. tani “today” – Mok. t’ani “now” (Mari tenij “today”, Est täna “today”);
Alb. dobёt “quiet” – Mok. topafks “satiety” , Erz topafty “sated” (Mari typ “quiet”);
Alb. turi “muzzle” – Mok, Erz trva “a lip” (Mari t’arvö “a lip”);
Alb. bretkosё “frog” – Mok. vatraksh “frog” (Greek βατραχοσ “frog”, Rom broasca"frog" as possible spoiled Thracian substratum) etc.
Alb. piče “pine-tree” – Mok, Erz piči “pine-tree” (the words of this root are present in other Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages but they mainly “galipot”, for example, Lat picis, Gr πισσα, but Lat picea “pine-tree” remains something far;
Alb zhavor “gravel” – Mok šuvar “sand” (this word in several different forms was spread in the Baltic and Slavic languages).





Modrovia seems to be very close to that upper right green area on J2b map, so this is very interesting. Does anyone know more precise DNA picture of Mordovians?

Haplogroup-J2b.gif
 
Btw, those folk look very close to Yamna autosomally, maybe the closest modern folk.
 
I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian
http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html


Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:


Alb. enё “a vessel” – Mok. en’a “a scoop”;
Alb. kapёrdij “to swallow” – Mok. kapordams “to swallow”, Erz. koporks “to swallow”;
Alb. kofšё “thigh” – Erz. kačo “thigh”, Mok. kače "abkle";
Alb. keqe “evil” – Mok., Erz. k’až “evil”;
Alb. bizele “peas” – Mok., Erz. pizёl “berries of mountain ash”;
Alb. rroj "to live" – Mok., Erz. er’ams "to live".
Some Albanian-Mordvinic correspondences have matches in other neighbouring languages:
Alb. tani “today” – Mok. t’ani “now” (Mari tenij “today”, Est täna “today”);
Alb. dobёt “quiet” – Mok. topafks “satiety” , Erz topafty “sated” (Mari typ “quiet”);
Alb. turi “muzzle” – Mok, Erz trva “a lip” (Mari t’arvö “a lip”);
Alb. bretkosё “frog” – Mok. vatraksh “frog” (Greek βατραχοσ “frog”, Rom broasca"frog" as possible spoiled Thracian substratum) etc.
Alb. piče “pine-tree” – Mok, Erz piči “pine-tree” (the words of this root are present in other Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages but they mainly “galipot”, for example, Lat picis, Gr πισσα, but Lat picea “pine-tree” remains something far;
Alb zhavor “gravel” – Mok šuvar “sand” (this word in several different forms was spread in the Baltic and Slavic languages).





Modrovia seems to be very close to that upper right green area on J2b map, so this is very interesting. Does anyone know more precise DNA picture of Mordovians?

Haplogroup-J2b.gif


as everytime when somebody wants to proove something and mâkes a list of "cognates", someones are confusing or interestong and others, phonetically, seems without any links between them - and someones are common loanwords from a "bigger" different language - my thought - maybe I like faith?
 
According to Endzelīns, -ava, -uva in Baltic languages are used
1)to denote place. Place characteristics + -ava. Kelmava (place of kelms, stomps of trees), Dumbrava (swampy land),
2) for living beings of some characteristics. Guļava - sleepy (from guļ+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), jaunava (virgin, jaun+ava).

Thanks for post (I'm late, not enough time tor ead every thread) - the question is: is a suffix found in placenames only a specific suffix restricted to placenames, or a more general suffix, ALSO used in placenames? Just an aside question in this thread, it's true!
 
@ Shtrun:
interesting
concerning Mordvins, we could suppose the cmomon "hat" name was given these 2 distinct groups for they were now living in a same region were a so called Mordvin population was living before? or it is an unprecise EXONYM? just a suggestion by an ignorant on the matter
interesting to see the Y-haplos very different distribtions which shows a different sgenetic story for the 2 groups in cause (the distributionS of J, E and R1b are hardly explicable by the only drift upon small population, at first thinking) - pity the samples are not bigger in each group
 
I don't know if that can help, but I red soemthing about 3 slavic "ethnies" of Ruthenia, it's to say a corner region in North Carpathians, for the most in far Western Ukraina, but spanning a bit over Southeastern Poland, Eastern Slovakia and Northwestern Romania: Hutsuls/gutsuls, Lemko's and Boyko's; about mt DNA only - drift seems evident according to them - Hutsuls are closer to Croats than to Ukrainians, and very far from Boyko's their neighbours! The most "of their own" are the Bojko's, far from every surrounding populations,
 
Boyko's mt DNA is close to LBK/AVK's one (Alföld successors, close to Szakàlhàt-Esztàr-Bükk) but would be EVEN CLOSER TO UDMURT mtDNA; I don't know if this can help in this thread, because the weight is put on "MORDVINS"; it seems showing at least a link between North Carpathians slopes and Steppes female ligneages since Neolithic if not earlier; the Hutsuls are closer to mainland Croats and Lemko's, spite not so close, seem having some ties with Krk island in N-W Croatia (relatively high levels of mt I + mt M* (far Asia introgression?); the question is: how to link these ressemblances and differences to historic moves of people when we see the Steppes were a boulevard for tribes of any kind? And the drifts in mountainous regions (like to Caucasus) come to tangle things!
to answer Maciamo, a Carpathians Goths desplacing of populations could have taken place, but the proves are tiny; Y-I1 even if globally typical for Germanics was preset in far North-East before historic Goths, I think, and the "southern" ligneages (J,E,G) were there maybe before, since Tripolye times for the most of them?
Sorry for a very inconclusive post!
 
@ Shtrun:
interesting
concerning Mordvins, we could suppose the cmomon "hat" name was given these 2 distinct groups for they were now living in a same region were a so called Mordvin population was living before? or it is an unprecise EXONYM? just a suggestion by an ignorant on the matter
interesting to see the Y-haplos very different distribtions which shows a different sgenetic story for the 2 groups in cause (the distributionS of J, E and R1b are hardly explicable by the only drift upon small population, at first thinking) - pity the samples are not bigger in each group

@MOESAN:
Mordva it certainly EXONYM. Such people do not have. Moksha and Erzya not understand each other and to communicate using the Russian language. In the Moksha and Ersa languages ​​there is no word "Mordva." The area of ​​residence does not intersect, although living nearby.


Moksha and Erzya are descendants of Ryazan-Oka Finn culture. This culture was destroyed some nomads (the archaeologists have not yet found out what kind of nomads). Some people went into the forest and become Meschera which later assimilated by the Slavs (krivichi). Another part went to the river Tesha, there emerged Erzya. And the third went to the flow of the river Sura, where there moksha. Erzya not mix. Moksha were affected by some steppe populations. As a result, Moksha gained a darker pigmentation, national costume has changed, changed the language (eg phonetics), and changed the composition of haplogroups.
 
@ Shtrun
Thanks
 
I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian
http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html


Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:

Alb. enё “a vessel” – Mok. en’a “a scoop”;
Alb. kapёrdij “to swallow” – Mok. kapordams “to swallow”, Erz. koporks “to swallow”;
Alb. kofšё “thigh” – Erz. kačo “thigh”, Mok. kače "abkle";
Alb. keqe “evil” – Mok., Erz. k’až “evil”;
Alb. bizele “peas” – Mok., Erz. pizёl “berries of mountain ash”;
Alb. rroj "to live" – Mok., Erz. er’ams "to live".
Some Albanian-Mordvinic correspondences have matches in other neighbouring languages:
Alb. tani “today” – Mok. t’ani “now” (Mari tenij “today”, Est täna “today”);
Alb. dobёt “quiet” – Mok. topafks “satiety” , Erz topafty “sated” (Mari typ “quiet”);
Alb. turi “muzzle” – Mok, Erz trva “a lip” (Mari t’arvö “a lip”);
Alb. bretkosё “frog” – Mok. vatraksh “frog” (Greek βατραχοσ “frog”, Rom broasca"frog" as possible spoiled Thracian substratum) etc.
Alb. piče “pine-tree” – Mok, Erz piči “pine-tree” (the words of this root are present in other Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages but they mainly “galipot”, for example, Lat picis, Gr πισσα, but Lat picea “pine-tree” remains something far;
Alb zhavor “gravel” – Mok šuvar “sand” (this word in several different forms was spread in the Baltic and Slavic languages).





Modrovia seems to be very close to that upper right green area on J2b map, so this is very interesting. Does anyone know more precise DNA picture of Mordovians?

Haplogroup-J2b.gif

It is interesting findings.

Because Mordvins have 10.2% J2b according:
https://www.facebook.com/cultural.anthropology.of.haplogroup.j2/posts/873532489371574

Unfortunately, disertation of Trofimova is not avaliable.

I found one her paper and several authors from 2015 but they gave only haplogroup J, Mordvins: 16.9%.

It is possible that data 10.2% J2b for Mordvins is accurate, if it is right Mordvins have the most percent J2b haplogroup in that region.

You're probably right, some link between Mordvins and Albanians exists, maybe these two population lived together somewhere in Ukraine, Romania, Carpatian region, etc., maybe Maciamo is right.
 

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