Do the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars descend from Carpathian Goths ?

[bicicleur 2]

Could proto-Uralic be the lost language group of Nordic peoples? Before Indo-European conquest?

Obviously the Finns and Estonians migrated to where they are. But they may have been Eastern Uralic peoples. I am wondering if there were possibly proto-Uralic dialects that existed in Scandinavia before the Indo-European Germanic language was taken.

[h=2]Language[edit][/h]Previously, the dominant view was that the spread of the Comb Ware people was correlated with the diffusion of the Uralic languages, and thus an early Uralic language must have been spoken throughout this culture. However, another more recent view is that the Comb Ware people may have spoken a Paleo-European (pre-Uralic) language, as some toponyms andhydronyms also indicate a non-Uralic, non-Indo-European language at work in some areas.^[4] Even then, linguists and archaeologists both have also been skeptical of assigning languages based on the borders of cultural complexes, and it's possible that the Pit-Comb Ware Culture was made up of several languages, one of them being Proto-Uralic.^{[citation needed]}

what do you think of this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture

4000 BC is after the R1a1 samples found (5500-5000 BC) , but these early R1a1 porbably didn't speak IE yet
it is the arrival of pottery from Siberia
the origin of this type of pottery is China, 25000 year ago
the pottery arived in eastern Siberia, near the river Amur 13300 years ago
it looks like this pottery came along with N1c1 or N1c1a from eastern Siberia

 

[Maciamo]

An explanation was proposed by the Romanian historian Bogdan Petriceicu-Hasdeu, who connected the name of the river Moldova with Mulde, a river in Saxony, and Moldau, the German name of the river Vltava in the Czech Republic, and argues that all derive from the Gothic word for "dust" (Gothic: ������������������������������, Runic: ᛗᚢᛚᛞᚨ) - Mulda.^[2] It is notable that this would not be the only river in Romania that got its name in connection to the word, as Prahova could be derived from the Slavic equivalent, Prah.

The Romanian linguist Iorgu Iordan proposed that the word be seen as a derivative of Molid (spruce), but the disappearance of the "i" would be hard to explain within the frame of Romanian phonetics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Moldova

The name Mordva is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word mard meaning "man". The Mordvin word mirde denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: mort and perhaps even in Mari: marij.^[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins

Most of the time this kind of etymology is based on pure guesses. It's irrelevant to this thread anyway.

 

[gyms]

Most of the time this kind of etymology is based on pure guesses. It's irrelevant to this thread anyway.

Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

Not my etymology.

 

[Diurpaneus]

Maciamo!
I usually appreciate your posts but this is pure nonense.Too much science fiction.You lack knowledge on important issues such as history and linguistics.

Shrouded in this overwhelming relativity, are we really capable to distinguish between what's"right" and "wrong"?!
We could give it a try,but of course this ain't math:

I guess it's wrong when we practice a form of mental cannibalism,when we hope that someone will make a mistake.
In our mind ,the bigger the prey is,the more we will grow,without too much effort.

I think it's right to try to create alternative theories, no matter what!
If only one of them proves to be true,then this is already a big gain.

 

[Diurpaneus]

Regarding the etymology of Moldova

It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

Balto-Slavicized variants:

Râu în Moldova
Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



Gothic variants:

Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

Molde în Norvegia
Moldjord, Norvegia
Moldegard, Norvegia
Moldestad, Norvegia
Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
Moldbjerg, Danemarca
Moldenit, Germania
Moldes, Spania
Moldones, Spania
Moldgreen, Marea Britanie

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

Not my etymology.

What I meant is that sometimes you don't have to look for overcomplicated etymologies based on corrupted words from extinct languages to find a link between two ethnic groups, especially if the DNA shows similarities.

 

[gyms]

In the 13th century, Western Cumans became Catholic Christians, while Eastern assumed Islam. The Catholic "Diocese of the Cumans" included Romania and Moldova. This title was kept until 1523. The principality of Wallachia was established by Basarab I, son of the Cumanian warlord Tihomir of Wallachia at the beginning of the 14th century. The name Basarab is considered as being of Cuman origin, meaning "Father King".

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=lorenfamily&id=I28387

http://www.academia.edu/10035068/THE_CUMAN_CAMPAIGNS_IN_1091

 

[Maciamo]

I have analysed the autosomal data of Volga Republics to try to confirm what the possibility of Gothic genetic contribution to the region, as suggested by the Y-DNA.

It turns out that the Mordvins are most similar to the Czechs in terms of admixture percentages. The Mordvins just have a bit more ANE and East Asian, as expected from their 10% of Uralic N1c1. Note that the Czechs have the highest percentage of Germanic ancestry of any Slavic population (11% I1, 6% R1b-U106, 4% I2a2). The Goths who reached the Black Sea in the 4th century were almost certainly a blend of Germanic and Proto-Slavic people from modern day Poland and western Ukraine.

The Slovaks are also close, but have less Gedrosian admixture than either the Czechs or the Mordvins. This correspond with the fact that Slovaks also have less R1b (as Gedrosian admixture in Europe correlates with R1b).

The Poles have more East European and less West Asian than the Mordvins or Czechs.

The Romanians have less Northwest European and more Mediterranean, West Asian, Southwest Asian and Caucasian than the Mordvins. The relatively high percentages of E1b1b, G2a and J2 in the Mordvin population is not well reflected by Near Eastern or Mediterranean autosomal admixtures. In other words, these haplogroups may simply have come from the Iron Age population of Poland and western Ukraine, and not from the Goths mixing with Romanian or Moldovan populations.


The Chuvash are very similar to the Mordvins autosomally, but with a bit more East European and a bit less Northwest European. They also have more East Asian (because of their 28% of N1c) and less Mediterranean.

No autosomal data is available for the Tatars, Udmurts, Komi, Mari or Bashkirs.

 

[Horse168]

Swedish Vikings

I agree that Z140 has a heavy North Sea Germanic bias but to say its typically "german" really seems to underplay just how widespread this SNP is amongst Dutch , Frisians, Danes and Scanians over the past 2000 plus years . Given that Z140+ clades would certainly have existed in the East Norse speaking areas of Southern Sweden during the Viking age I think you can't rule out that some of these individuals didn't take their Y dna to Russia and beyond. Also I think soon we will see with wider snp testing that Denmark is and has long been chock full of Z140+ clades and that Danish Vikings & Settlers implanted much Z140 into N & E England , Sth Wales and E Scotland post 800 a.d as well as leaving traces of it all along the Atlantic coast from France down to Portugal and Spain due to their seafaring abilities.

 

[Shtrun]

Mordovians

- Germanic : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and 1.7% of R1a-M458

- Slavic : 32% of R1a-CTS1211 and 1.7% of R1a-Z282

- Balkanic : 10.2% of E-M78, 10.2% of J2b, 5.1% of J2a, 3.4% of G2a3b1, and 1.7% of J*.

- Uralic : 10% of N1c1

- Turkic : 0% of N1c2

Firstly such people as Mordvinians does not exist. There Moksha and Erzya.
Secondly you have bad data, that data separately for Moksha and Erzyan who provided the author publication (Trofimova):

 

[Shtrun]

You have a strange limit on the links, I can not insert a table.

 

[Shtrun]

I checked the I1 subclades in the FTDNA projects for Mordovia and Tatarstan, and found the following subclades (N.B. no I1 subclade tested for Chuvashia).

- Mordovians: Z59, Z60, Z63 (2x), Z140 (2x), CTS743

This incorrect data in the project who indicated which group. I am the administrator of the Erzya-Moksha DNA project (Mordovia project does not exist in principle).

Erzya:
I1-M253+ - 1 member (subclade undefined)
I1-Z63+ - 2 member
Moksha:
not to members haplogroup I1
Russian (Ethnogroup Ryazan Meshchera):
I1-Z140+ - 4 member (This is me and my family. Most likely it is the ancestor of a German prisoner.)
Russian:
I1-L1248+ - 1 member
I1-L1302+ - 1 member

 

[Shtrun]

The same is true for the Mordovian samples, who belong to deep subclades like DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140 or DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>CTS7362>CTS9352>Z73>CTS743.

Another mistake. ))

 

[Shtrun]

Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

Not my etymology.

Easier to use self-designation:


Moksha and Erzya, there will be no confusion with the Moldovans.

 

[gyms]

The name Mordva is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word mard meaning "man". The Mordvin word mirde denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: mort and perhaps even in Mari: marij.<sup>[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Moldova

According to a legend recorded by Moldavian prince Dimitrie Cantemir in the 17th century, the first Moldavian ruler, Dragoş, named the country he founded after one of his hounds, Molda, who died during the hunt of an aurochs in the lands of the future principality.[1]</sup>

 

[Shtrun]

Let's start with the fact that the words "Mordva/Mordvinians" in the language of Moksha and Erzya places without. ))

 

[Shtrun]

In one of the earliest studies (Malaspina et al.) of the haplogroups was a fun bug there were listed:
Moldovans-Moksha and Moldovans-Erzya. ))

 

[Shtrun]

I edited the above message with the results for Moksha and Erzya in Trofimova 2015.
Duplicate table:

 

[Shtrun]

Data from other publications

Tambets et al.(2004)
Moksha (Staroshaygovsky District of Mordovia) n=83

R1a - 26,5%
N3 (TAT) - 16,9%
R1b - 13,3%
I1 - 12%
I2b - 4,8%
N2 (P43) - 2,4%
I2 - 2,4%
K*(M9) - 1,2%
NO (M214) - 0%
N*(M231) - 0%
N1 (M128) - 0%
O (M175) - 0%
J2 - nd
E3b - 0%

Malaspina et al. (2003) n=46

Erzya R1a1 - 45,7%
Moksha R1a1 - 21,7%

Malaspina et al. (2000) n=62

Moksha+Erzya R1a - 39%

Lahermo et al. (1999)

Erzya n=52

N1с (Tat-С) - 6/52 (12%)
DE (Yap) - 0/52 (0%)

Moksha n=73
N1c (Tat-С) - 6/73 (8%)
DE (Yap) - 0/73 (0%)

Bermisheva et al. (2001) Erzya n=50
DE (YAP+) = 4% (2/50)
N (LLY22) = 8% (4/50)
Other = 88% (44/50)

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/erzya-moksha-dna-project/about/goals

 

[Shtrun]

All publications and project data show that the proportion of Erzya R1a is significantly higher than that of Moksha:


There are differences in the R1b. In Erzya mainly Eastern European Z2105+, then Moksha we do not see.


And the biggest difference is in the presence of a significant percentage at Moksha Mediterranean haplogroup E-M78 and J2b.