The Celts were G2a2b2a1b L497 ( Hallstatt Y-DNA from Mitterkirchen, Upper Austria 700

UltraViolence said:
G y-dna does not have any Indo-European origins, within the historical context


.
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He was talking about the SNP, L497 of G , as per the paper it was created in Austria..............
 
MOESAN said:
I have been surprised by this newthread
it is based upon only a supposedHaplogroups based itself upon an haplotype, found in aHallstatt site -
Hallstatt = place + period – here itwould be about 700 BC what is Hallstatt culture OK – but if Celtswere Y-R1b as a majority (a strong one) they could have integratedY-G2a ; that does not do Celts = Y-G2a ! - at the contrary,one could base an other theory upon this apparent local SNP and say,as it is very « highlander » regionally speaking it is THE non-I-Ean core ofRhaetic people having preceded Celts there! And if Rhaeti werelate neolithical people ? All the way all that is stillspeculation (I 'm not opposed by nature but I prefer doing bets uponmore data) - I don't speak here of the I-Ean craddle battle: no argument here to resolve this question!
I red some forumers considering Celtsappeared in History about the Iron Age in West-Central Europe – Itis true, the La Tène culture is linked to Celts –
Hallsttat = Celts ??? The wholeHallstatt culture ? Less sure !
And Celtic languages seem having beenspoken in Western Iberia before the Iron Age and the famous CentralIberia Celtiberians – Henri HUBERT was playing with the concept ofpossible Gaelic speakers in the Isles at the british Bell Beakers(Round Barrows) times, came from N-W Germany Rhine mouth -


to SILE : L247 is maybe born inAustria, maybe not, it is there it is the most frequent (but if I red well, one present in Baden culture? where in Baden ???)– but L247is the descendant of L140, « brother » to L694 and M278and found also in Northern and Western Europe – these three HaploGsare « sons » of P303, very common SNP present from Iberiato Iran if what I red was serious - what appears is it would bearrived from East across Continental Europe not across MediterraneaSea, so possible arrival among some I-Eans tribes from somewhere I donot take the risk to precise –
the L91 type and its « brother »M286 types are more certainly linked to Anatolia and MediterranianNeolithics moves – M406, « brother » to L141-1 itself« father » P303 is linked to Anatolia and Levant too butits high presence specifically in Italy could correspond to acolonization younger than Neolithic but distinct to the more widelyspred of L141-1 downtreams SNPs in Europe – M406 = Greeks ? Ora Chalcolithic (Copper) intrusion through North, from Balkans ?I lack precise local distributions an possible datations in NorthItaly and Balkan to affirm something here – but L407 is only alocal developpement of L140 from P303, not a too special branch ofmarked ethnic originality -
and SILE, Helvarti were CELTS –Rhaeti cover 2 different realities, one I-Ean, either archaïcoccidental or cCltic too, one apparently close to Etruscans...
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what is L247?

I do not understand what you want to say.................basically as markers migrate they created mutations on their travels, these markers and where they are created are what people are trying to find......example, like mr. Hammer and his R1b theory........IIRC P312 in Hungaria, U106 in Harz mountains, U152 in middle rhine area ( all R1b ) etc
 
Sile said:
He was talking about the SNP, L497 of G , as per the paper it was created in Austria..............
Click to expand...
but Im sure many haplogroup sub-clades from historically pre-Indo European populations sprang up at a time when the carriers were living with or mixing with the people who spread IE languages/culture into Europe.


by that definition you can say just about all sub-clades from all European haplogroups have Indo-European origins if they originated from the Bronze Age era in Europe to the present.(?)



again, that makes no sense and its not accurate.
 
UltraViolence said:
but Im sure many haplogroup sub-clades from historically pre-Indo European populations sprang up at a time when the carriers were living with or mixing with the people who spread IE languages/culture into Europe.


by that definition you can say just about all sub-clades from all European haplogroups have Indo-European origins if they originated from the Bronze Age era in Europe to the present.(?)



again, that makes no sense and its not accurate.
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So Ultraviolence, in your opinion what would make sense and consider accurate?
 
Sile said:
what is L247?

I do not understand what you want to say.................basically as markers migrate they created mutations on their travels, these markers and where they are created are what people are trying to find......example, like mr. Hammer and his R1b theory........IIRC P312 in Hungaria, U106 in Harz mountains, U152 in middle rhine area ( all R1b ) etc
Click to expand...

Sorry I beg your pardon ! I wasspeaking about L497 (not the very older L247) the target of thisthread – my point was showing you it was seemingly not a SNP to farfrom « brothers » or « uncles » very commonin the whole Europe and farther -
No, « markers » don'tcreate mutations only as they travel – more often I think themutation occurs in a « mother » population numerousenough for that – when the bearers of the mutation, who are bydefinition at first grouped in a close region, are from a borderregion of the whole group and when they go away they give thismutated SNP a chance to get denser in the leaving group and even morenumerous than the upstream SNP if the new population created likethat know a demographic « boom » (it was the theory of« wave of advance » I suppose) -
genetics is dynamic : sometimeswhen I read some posts I've the feeling people believe an ethny = aSNP – I take Y-R1b-U152 : it is Celtic or Celtic-Italic (Iagree for the most) ; but some people forget
it is (was) going along with Y-R1b-P312(« father ») : but P312 is « father » totoo Y-R1b-L21 and other in Iberia, by instance : was a P312Iberian, Basque, Celt, Italic or... was it only confined in ansource region in central Europe ? No, we have P312 and P312 andother P312... here end there : the mutation is not« obligatory » -
But a genetic mutation is not by forceaccompagned by language mutation – what we can say is the departureof a small set of population can (not exactly at the same time) givebirth to a change in internal %s of SNPs AND a change in language(evolution, but surely with longer time) by geographic isolation ;CAN only – only long isolation can create new SNP far downstreamfrom the source -
so the Y-G2a3b1a2 L497 of Austria isnot a far downstream SNP compared to some other Y-G2a3b in Europe –it's very high internal incidence among cousins Y-G2a3 in Austriacould very well be a local drift (mountains) and not the proof of aspecific origin (in time or geography) – so a theory based upon anunic SNP found, correlated for time and place tho an ancient culturedoesn't prove a special link with this culture... it was only mypoint -
good forum
 
Robert6 said:
The Celts were G2a2b2a1b L497 ( Hallstatt Y-DNA from Mitterkirchen, Upper Austria 700BC)
10 marker matches from the region close to the Celtic ancient dna
2NWM5 Warren Zweisimmen, Switzerland Unknown Family Tree DNA 12 0
ABZX5 Beery Oberdiessbach, Switzerland G (tested) Family Tree DNA 12 0
NHMCH Willi Switzerland G2a3b1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 12 0
Z8UD6 Häfeli Switzerland Unknown Family Tree DNA 12 0
ZZQU9 Boyer Switzerland Unknown Family Tree DNA 12 0

Tabelle 2: Y-chromosomales DNA-Profile HÜ-I / 8
Tabelle 1: DNA-Profile HÜ-X / 1 und HÜ-I / 8
Objekt
06
Merkmal. DYS391 DYS389I DYS439 DYS389II DYS438 DYS437
HÜ-I / 8 10 12 11 29 10 16
Merkmal. DYS19 DYS392 DYS393 DYS390 DYS385
HÜ-I / 8 15 11 14 22 14 14

Ancient DNA from here
http://sonius.at/pdf/Sonius_07_WEB.pdf
Click to expand...


Correction to your post.

THIS La Tene Celt is G2a2b, while the other 2 are R1b, most likely Z2105.
 
Aaron1981 said:
Correction to your post.

THIS La Tene Celt is G2a2b, while the other 2 are R1b, most likely Z2105.
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One (Hallstatt) is G2a2b2a1b L497
One (La Tene) is R1b1a2a2 and probably R1b1a2a2c1 Z2105>>CTS7822>>CTS9219
 
UltraViolence said:
but Im sure many haplogroup sub-clades from historically pre-Indo European populations sprang up at a time when the carriers were living with or mixing with the people who spread IE languages/culture into Europe.


by that definition you can say just about all sub-clades from all European haplogroups have Indo-European origins if they originated from the Bronze Age era in Europe to the present.(?)



again, that makes no sense and its not accurate.
Click to expand...

I think people are suggesting that that subclade of G2 might be from the Caucasus, brought to Europe by IE people, instead of being part of the Neolithic G2 farmer group. However, there isn't yet any proof that any G2 migrated into Europe as part of the IE expansion, so I'm inclined to think that it's probably just an example of a person of Neolithic European descent who somehow became part of the Celtic group, just as it appears that some Mesolithic European hunter gatherer types from Y haplogroup I joined the Neolithic farmers.
 
Aberdeen said:
I think people are suggesting that that subclade of G2 might be from the Caucasus, brought to Europe by IE people, instead of being part of the Neolithic G2 farmer group. However, there isn't yet any proof that any G2 migrated into Europe as part of the IE expansion, so I'm inclined to think that it's probably just an example of a person of Neolithic European descent who somehow became part of the Celtic group, just as it appears that some Mesolithic European hunter gatherer types from Y haplogroup I joined the Neolithic farmers.
Click to expand...
From East Caucasus came the Satem group, the Celtic language have Iranian(Indo-Iranian, Yamna-LeilaTepe) adstratum

http://s017.radikal.ru/i409/1502/9d/f806bc8188b5.jpg
f806bc8188b5.jpg
 
Sile said:
thats all fine...........
but the title of the thread is wrong, it should read -The G2-L497 is Raetic in origin .......as per my paper link
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No,
the R1b-U152 is many in Raetic + Etrouscan territories, while the R1b-DF27 is Basqic
The R1b-Z2105 is EastCaucasian but some of them(in Yamna) are Indo-Iranized
 
Robert6 said:
From East Caucasus came the Satem group, the Celtic language have Iranian(Indo-Iranian, Yamna-LeilaTepe) adstratum

http://s017.radikal.ru/i409/1502/9d/f806bc8188b5.jpg
f806bc8188b5.jpg
Click to expand...

So what? Nobody is disputing the fact that the Celtic languages are IE. But if any one Y haplotype seems to be associated with the Celtic expansion in Europe, it's R1b. The fact that one G2 was found among early Celts in Europe doesn't prove that G2 was part of the mix before the IE folk arrived in Europe. That was probably just one G2 type who got absorbed by the R1b Celts, just as some I haplotype Mesolithic hunter gatherers in Europe got absorbed by Neolitic farmers from the Middle East after those farmers arrived in Europe.
 
Robert6 said:
No,
the R1b-U152 is many in Raetic + Etrouscan territories, while the R1b-DF27 is Basqic
The R1b-Z2105 is EastCaucasian but some of them(in Yamna) are Indo-Iranized
Click to expand...

yes, the Raetic where in the tyrol of the alps, the celts where not
 
Robert6 said:
No,
the R1b-U152 is many in Raetic + Etrouscan territories, while the R1b-DF27 is Basqic
The R1b-Z2105 is EastCaucasian but some of them(in Yamna) are Indo-Iranized
Click to expand...

Raetic are , apart from G2 clades, have R1b-L2 in majority of the R1b group, etruscans IIRC is mimimal in this clade
 
Sile said:
yes, the Raetic where in the tyrol of the alps, the celts where not
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In Tyrol territories were resettled the Germanized Celtic tribe Boii (together with many G2-L497)


While the Romansh(Rhaeto-Romance) people that are living in Southeast Switzerland are believed to be direct descendants of the Raetia.
 
Robert6 said:
In Tyrol territories were resettled the Germanized Celtic tribe Boii (together with many G2-L497)


While the Romansh(Rhaeto-Romance) people that are living in Southeast Switzerland are believed to be direct descendants of the Raetia.
Click to expand...

wrong, the boii never settled in the alps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

they where around emilia-romagna in italy though, but ended their travels in bohemia


raetic areas - all tyrol, all italian alps from swiss-austrian border to austrian-slovene border ( as per modern ).............
 
Sile said:
wrong, the boii never settled in the alps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

they where around emilia-romagna in italy though, but ended their travels in bohemia


raetic areas - all tyrol, all italian alps from swiss-austrian border to austrian-slovene border ( as per modern ).............
Click to expand...


Tyrol from the mid-6th century was resettled by Germanic Bavarii tribes.

Bavarii or Baiuvarii was the term for the population of theBohemian Forest area (which had been the territory of theBoii during antiquity) from the 6th century; the name is Latinized from a possible self-designation *Baio-warioz, as it were "men of Bohemia", where "Bohemia" (boio-hemum) in origin refers to the "home of the Boii".

G2-L497 is also in Bohemia in Southern Poland in Slovakia in Hungaria

 
Robert6 said:
Tyrol from the mid-6th century was resettled by Germanic Bavarii tribes.

Bavarii or Baiuvarii was the term for the population of theBohemian Forest area (which had been the territory of theBoii during antiquity) from the 6th century; the name is Latinized from a possible self-designation *Baio-warioz, as it were "men of Bohemia", where "Bohemia" (boio-hemum) in origin refers to the "home of the Boii".

G2-L497 is also in Bohemia in Southern Poland in Slovakia in Hungaria
Click to expand...

wrong

the Roman invasion of the raeti people started in 15BC..........they where the last area of the alps the roman invaded, if they where Celts or gallic the Romans would have attacked very early like they did in the po valleys and Gaul............the Romans never trusted the Gauls and celts

2nd error..........Bohemia is not in the alps............get a map and look
 
Aberdeen said:
So what? Nobody is disputing the fact that the Celtic languages are IE. But if any one Y haplotype seems to be associated with the Celtic expansion in Europe, it's R1b. The fact that one G2 was found among early Celts in Europe doesn't prove that G2 was part of the mix before the IE folk arrived in Europe. That was probably just one G2 type who got absorbed by the R1b Celts, just as some I haplotype Mesolithic hunter gatherers in Europe got absorbed by Neolitic farmers from the Middle East after those farmers arrived in Europe.
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Yes, what he said.
Why is it such a shock to find some G2 in a Hallstatt site? The predominance of R1b among Celtic populations is about as certain as anything can be in this field. The Celts and their ancestors had been living in continental Europe for centuries at this point, naturally they would have assimilated some native lineages. Finding a G2 male with Hallstatt is worth noting, sure, but it's not a big surprise.
 
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