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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

  1. #26
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    There's also M417 in West Asia


    Yes but they came there from Eastern Europe.

    You did not get it - Karelian hunter from 7000 - 7500 years ago is direct ANCESTOR of M417 (which itself is only 4800 - 6800 years old).

    And we also have M417 in Corded Ware from Esperstedt, which is 4500 - 4350 years old.

    Do you think that descendants of Karelian hunter went first to West Asia - there M417 emerged - and then they returned back to Europe ??? Much more likely is that descendants of Karelian guy stayed in Eastern Europe, evolved M417, and then expanded in all directions.


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    I will give you a few reasons why I think ancient South_Central Asia for example is a possible place of origin for R1a.

    modern post neolithic Kalash have almost as much ANE (32-40%) as ancient Karelian H&G (38-40%) who were not yet deluted by neolithic DNA.

    The R1a among the Karelian is basal M417.

    Now we have modern Kalash with m420, m417 and many up and downstream clades.

    L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%)
    Now imagine how the aDNA of undeluted pre neolithic "Kalash" would look like and combine it with their yDNA. And tell me which is more likely the proto homeland of R1a.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_...enetic_origins

    The point is we don't have ancient DNA from South_Central and West Asia yet. Let's wait for it and than take any big conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    Samara was R1b not R1a. And - by the way - Samara is still located in European part of Russia.

    But we have a direct ancestor of M417 from Karelia and an actual M417 from Esperstedt.

    Karelia and
    Esperstedt are definitely Europe (unless you agree with Konrad Adenauer that Asia starts east of the Elbe River).
    Samara is just north of Kazakhstan by few kilometers and it is definitely notin the 100% clear "European" part. if so than 1/5 of the freakn Asian continent is Europe and we should change the school books because Europe is much bigger continent as we thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    Entire S224 (including Z93) is from M417:










    http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html

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    Samara is just north of Kazakhstan by few kilometers
    Kazakhstan is located on two continents - westernmost part of Kazahstan is in Europe, the rest is in Asia.

    Of course Europe and Asia are conventional / cultural terms. In reality this is one landmass called Eurasia.

    ===================

    Goga - just because today (!) there is some relic M417 in Asia, doesn't mean that it emerged there. It could immigrate there.

    We have a 7000 years old (!) Karelian hunter who was direct ancestor of M417. This is a strong proof that M417 emerged in Europe.

    Unless M198 (M417) moved to Asia from Karelia, and then back to Europe from Asia (as M417). Which is rather unlikely (and such scenario still means that ancestor was in European Karelia before moving to Asia - so either way it means that Europe was the cradle, in one way or another).

    Then we have a Corded Ware individual from Esperstedt with M417 (in this case he is ancestral to L664 /
    CTS4385).

    M198 = M17, and this guy is proven to be ancestral to M417. So we have a Karelian hunter who is ancestor of M417.

    Then we have a Corded Ware guy who is M417. And he is proven to be ancestor of L664 / CTS4385.

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    I heard there are some sampling going on in South Caucasus and some other places. I rather wait for ancient West and South_Central Asians and than take any conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Goga - just because today there is some relic M417 in Asia doesn't mean that it emerged there.

    We have a Karelian hunter who was direct ancestor of M417. This is a strong proof that M417 emerged in Europe.

    Unless M198 (M417) moved to Asia from Karelia, and then back to Europe from Asia. Which is unlikely.
    Same can be said about Karelia, just because they found R1a-M417 there, doesn't mean that M417 is from there. I think that M417 in Karelia was part of people who came from the South. There was always a geneflow from West Asia into Europe. The original native Karelian folks were N1c1 and not R1a at all. But the fact is that ALL R1a ancient subclades of R1a has also been found in West Asia. There is also M417 in West Asia and not only in Karelia or something...

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    If they find R1a ancestral to M17 / M198 (M417) in Asia, which is older than 7500 years old, then of course I will change my mind.

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    Same can be said with Karelia, just becaus they found R1a-M417 there, doesn't mean that M417 is from there.
    They did not find M417. They found M17 (M198), which is ANCESTOR of M417. He is described as "M198 (M417)".

    He lived 7000 - 7500 years ago, while M417 is much younger - estimated age is 4800 - 6800 years ago.

    So this is a pretty strong proof that M417 emerged in Europe, because ancestor of this clade was found in Karelia.

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    Look:

    I0061 (Karelia_HG)
    In contrast to I0104 and I0099, the hunter-gatherer from Karelia could only be assigned to haplogroup
    R1a1 (M459:6906074A→G, Page65.2:2657176C→T) and the upstream haplogroup R1a
    (L145:14138745C→A, L62:17891241A→G, L63:18162834T→C, L146:23473201T→A). It was
    ancestral for the downstream clade R1a1a (M515:14054623T→A, M198:15030752C→T,
    M512:16315153C→T, M514:19375294C→T, L449:22966756C→T). Thus, it can be designated as
    belonging to haplogroup R1a1*(xR1a1a) and it occupied a basal position to the vast majority of
    modern Eurasian R1a-related Y-chromosomes4, although more basal (R1a-M420*) Y-chromosomes
    have been detected in Iran and eastern Turkey4. Overall, our detection of haplogroup R1a1 in a
    northwest Russian hunter-gatherer establishes the early presence of this lineage in eastern Europe, and
    is consistent with a later migration from eastern Europe into central Europe which contributed such
    haplogroups to the Corded Ware population.
    But those more basal R1a-M420* from Iran and eastern Turkey could be actually Paleolithic guys, because it is extremely old.

    So in the light of these facts arguing that M417 is originally Asian is like arguing that humans are originally African (which is basically true but nobody cares because it was so long time ago). This "even more basal" M420* is actually 18,500 years old (according to Sharma 2009).

    So M420* came to Eastern Europe from Iran or Turkey, but that was perhaps 15,000 - 18,000 years ago. And those lineages did not succeed. The only one that demographically succeeded was M417, which has millions of descendants today, and which emerged in Eastern Europe. And R1a lived in Eastern Europe since Paleolithic, until M417 emerged and expanded from there in all directions, forming 99% of modern R1a.

    At this point claiming Asian origin is as pointless as claiming African origin (we all know that humans originally came from Africa, so what?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If they find R1a ancestral to M17 / M198 (M417) in Asia, which is older than 7500 years old, then of course I will change my mind.
    LMAO, brother there are ancestral subclades to M417 in West Asia, but no, those are modern examples from modern people and not from ancient samples. West Asia (from Caucasus to the Iranian Plateau) is one of those regions that is not really got studied from a genetic few of point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    They did not find M417. They found M17 (M198), which is ANCESTOR of M417. He is described as "M198 (M417)".

    He lived 7000 - 7500 years ago, while M417 is much younger - estimated age is 4800 - 6800 years ago.

    So this is a pretty strong proof that M417 emerged in Europe, because ancestor of this clade was found in Karelia.
    Once again, as you can see at this pie chart there is still M198 in West Asia in modern people (and they are NOT from Karelia, lol) !!!

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    LMAO, brother there are ancestral subclades to M417 in West Asia
    So what, if they did not succeed demographically. 99% of modern R1a is M417, because they expanded as Indo-Europeans.

    Non-M417 are not IEs. And M417 emerged in Europe (and M417 ancestors lived in Europe since 15,000 y.a.), this is now almost certain.

    BTW - ancestors of West Asians originally came from Africa, just like ancestors of Europeans. Does it mean that Indo-Europeans are African?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Same can be said with Karelia, just because they found R1a-M417 there, doesn't mean that M417 is from there. I think that M417 in Karelia was part of people who came from the South. There was always a geneflow from West Asia into Europe. The original native Karelian folks were N1c1 and not R1a at all. But the fact is that ALL R1a ancient subclades of R1a has also been found in West Asia. There is also M417 in West Asia and not only in Karelia or something...
    You're assuming N1c is original in Karelia because lots have it today. Autosomally Mesolithic Karelians are very different from modern ones, they aren't the same people. N1c is probably a recent arrival in northeast Europe. There was no obvious east Asian ancestry in both Mesolithic Russians, but modern Finno-Urgics heavy in N1c do have obvious east Asian ancestry.

    Europe has gone through two major genetic events since the Mesolithic; arrival of west Asians during the Neolithic and migrations out of Russia during the bronze age. No region in Europe has had significant genetic continuum since the Mesolithic. Finno-Urgics are very similar to Indo European-speaking north Europeans, and can fit as being close to 50% Yamna. They aren't Mesolithic relics and have alot of recent common history with other northern Europeans.

    Every Y DNA sample from pre-historic Russia-Siberia going all the way back to the Upper Palaeolithic is R, except for a few which are probably from foreign admixture. This is no coincidence.

    If R1 came to Mesolithic Russia from west Asia, those west Asians had no ENF ancestry making them very different from modern west Asians. West Asia in this sense is just a geographic location. These R1-bearing west Asians would be as foreign to modern west Asians as Mesolithic Russians are.

    Will you finally stop with your west Asian-centrism? No one is attacking west Asians. Saying most R1b and R1a in modern west Asians came from Europe isn't inferiorating west Asians. History doesn't follow agendas. It's the story of random events that were ignorant of each other(people had a little knowledge of history before modern times).

    The slogan of historians should be "Random shit happened in the past".

    I think there's alot of diversity of R1 and R in general in west and south Asia we should not ignore. If R1b1 was in Spain and Russia 7,000YBP, who's to say it wasn't in Siberia and Iraq. I don't agree with Davidski's simplistic ideas about R and ANE.

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    there is still M198 in West Asia in modern people
    Yes. Relic of old migration from Karelia.

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    Guys you will go so deep into this discussion that we will again end up with a whole thread of 5-6 pages full of discussion in it.
    And everyone will lose the interest in this thread.
    Please let us just wait for the upcoming samples and than take conclusions out of it.

    What we know so far,for now is that R1a M417/R1b P25 originated roughly somewhere in this area. More is just too speculative imo.


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    What we know so far,for now is that R1a M417/R1b P25 originated roughly somewhere in this area.
    We only know that ancestor of M417 lived in Karelia. We don't know where exactly did M417 emerge.

    But the farther from Karelia, the less likely. And the closer to Karelia, the more likely.

    So areas north of the Black Sea - Caspian Sea - Aral Sea line are more much more probable now.

    Check also this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

    The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE]. Mainstream scholarship places them in the forest-steppe zone immediately to the north of the western end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe. Some archaeologists would extend the time depth of PIE to the middle Neolithic (5500 to 4500 BCE) or even the early Neolithic (7500 to 5500 BCE), and suggest alternative location hypotheses.
    Our Karelian hunter - ancestor of M417 - lived between 5500 and 5000 BCE.

    M417 emerged between 2800 and 4800 BCE. Everything fits pretty well.

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    Fire Haired, you write that ”autosomally Mesolithic Karelians are very different from modern ones, they aren't the same people. N1c is probably a recent arrival in northeast Europe. There was no obvious east Asian ancestry in both Mesolithic Russians, but modern Finno-Urgics heavy in N1c do have obvious east Asian ancestry.”
    When I look at the chart Shaikort posted http://s28.postimg.org/rqa2facbf/admixt.jpg I would not say that Mesolithic Karelians are so very different from modern Finns. Even that East Asian part seems to be of equal size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    You're assuming N1c is original in Karelia because lots have it today. Autosomally Mesolithic Karelians are very different from modern ones, they aren't the same people. N1c is probably a recent arrival in northeast Europe. There was no obvious east Asian ancestry in both Mesolithic Russians, but modern Finno-Urgics heavy in N1c do have obvious east Asian ancestry.

    Europe has gone through two major genetic events since the Mesolithic; arrival of west Asians during the Neolithic and migrations out of Russia during the bronze age. No region in Europe has had significant genetic continuum since the Mesolithic. Finno-Urgics are very similar to Indo European-speaking north Europeans, and can fit as being close to 50% Yamna. They aren't Mesolithic relics and have alot of recent common history with other northern Europeans.

    Every Y DNA sample from pre-historic Russia-Siberia going all the way back to the Upper Palaeolithic is R, except for a few which are probably from foreign admixture. This is no coincidence.

    If R1 came to Mesolithic Russia from west Asia, those west Asians had no ENF ancestry making them very different from modern west Asians. West Asia in this sense is just a geographic location. These R1-bearing west Asians would be as foreign to modern west Asians as Mesolithic Russians are.

    Will you finally stop with your west Asian-centrism? No one is attacking west Asians. Saying most R1b and R1a in modern west Asians came from Europe isn't inferiorating west Asians. History doesn't follow agendas. It's the story of random events that were ignorant of each other(people had a little knowledge of history before modern times).

    The slogan of historians should be "Random shit happened in the past".

    I think there's alot of diversity of R1 and R in general in west and south Asia we should not ignore. If R1b1 was in Spain and Russia 7,000YBP, who's to say it wasn't in Siberia and Iraq. I don't agree with Davidski's simplistic ideas about R and ANE.
    Native people of Europe were not Indo-European. Saami in Northern Europe are native people of that region and they’re very similar to Finnic people. They are not Indo-European, nor are people in Finland Indo-Europeans. N1c1and I haplogroups are very frequent in that area and not in other parts of the world. That mean that those haplogroups are just native to those areas. Yamnaya was for a huge part West Asian. Yamnaya folks were actually West Asians who mixed with the A hunter-gatherer in the Steppes. We all know right not that R1b entered Europe from West Asia. I’m sure that the same happened with R1a...

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    In my opinion N1c1 could be in Karelia at the same time as R1a (or shortly later).

    Probably Uralic-speakers (N1c1) and Proto-Indo-European speakers (R1a1 + R1b1a) lived close to each other:

    http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/tempora.../gerasimov/10/

    (...) Skeletons from Yuzhny Oleniy Island were studied by many anthropologists (the most detailed examination was undertaken by V.P. Yakimov). Stature was rather high for that time – about 173 cm in males. While most people were Caucasoids, some display Mongoloid characteristics – flat faces and rather flat noses. (...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yes. Relic of old migration from Karelia.
    Lol, funny guy. M198 is very close to R1a* to which I do belong. Is my R1a* also a relic from Karelia??? And about what old migration from Karelia into West Asa are you talking about? Did I miss something ? The only migrations that I know about are all from West Asia into Europe ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In my opinion N1c1 could be in Karelia at the same time as R1a (or shortly later).

    Probably Uralic-speakers (N1c1) and Proto-Indo-European speakers (R1a1 + R1b1a) lived close to each other:

    http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/tempora.../gerasimov/10/
    Wrong again! R1b1a* is much younger than R1a1* …

  23. #48
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    M198 is very close to R1a* to which I do belong. Is my R1a* also a relic from Karelia???
    No, your R1a* is much older than M198. It is from Paleolithic times, over 21,000 - 25,000 years old.

    It has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans, though. M417 is the kind of R1a related to Indo-Europeans.

  24. #49
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    R1b1a* is much younger than R1a1* …
    But Karelian R1a1 was found to be M17 (M417) - a direct ancestor of R1a1a, which is 4800 - 6800 years old.

    In other words, in Karelia 7000 - 7500 years ago lived the man who is ancestor of 99% of modern people who are R1a.

    You are among the remaining 1% who are not his descendants. And this 1% were not Indo-Europeans, but Paleolithic survivors.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    No, your R1a* is much older than M198. It is from Paleolithic times, over 21,000 - 25,000 years old.

    Your R1a* is a relic from out-of-Africa migration to Eurasia. Your hg is over 20 thousand years old.

    It has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans, though. Only R1a M417 is related to Indo-Europeans.
    My R1a* has been also evolving all those thousands of years among my people. It is part of the Kurds today, before it's was part of the Medes (Mitanni) and other West Iranic peoples etc. My evolved R1a* is not the same as R1a* among my direct ancestors. So it's as modern as all other R1a* But it has its roots with the ancient R1a*. The same can be said about M198. Well, R1a evolved from R1*, R1* evolved from R*, R* evolved out of P, P evolved from K, K is from F etc. And yeah at one point huam race came from Africa I guess...

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