Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

First of all they found R1b and NOT R1a in Yamnaya.

Professor Reich (co-author of the study) said - during a lecture which took place after the publication of their study - that both R1a and R1b were surely present in Yamnaya.

Indo-Europeans were a combination of R1a1a and R1b1a, who were descendants of Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers who switched from hunting to pastoralism.

That took place in forest-steppe zone of Eastern Europe, which is located south of Karelia (but hunters who were direct ancestors of R1a1a M417 lived in Karelia):

The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE]. Mainstream scholarship places them in the forest-steppe zone immediately to the north of the western end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe. Some archaeologists would extend the time depth of PIE to the middle Neolithic (5500 to 4500 BCE) or even the early Neolithic (7500 to 5500 BCE), and suggest alternative location hypotheses.

North-Eastern European Hunters - haplogroup M17 (M417), so ancestors of M417 - lived between 5500 and 5000 BCE.

And M417 emerged (among descendants of those hunters) between 2800 and 4800 BCE. Everything fits pretty well.

Let's also check Y-DNA from steppe / nomadic Indo-European cultures, discovered to date:

Yamnaya - R1b1a (only 7 individuals checked so far)
=============
Corded Ware - R1a1a
Tocharians from Xiaohe - R1a1a (and interestingly, Tocharian R1a was not Z93 - read below)
Andronovo - R1a1a
Scythians - R1a1a

==============================

Hui Zhou from Jilin University, China, about Tocharian Y-DNA (which was found to be M417, but NOT Z93):

Hui Zhou (2014-07-18 16:14) Jilin University

Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belonging to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which is mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to HgM25 in India, and in our study it was not HgM25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.

This data is not yet officially published.

===================

We know TOCHARIAN LANGUAGE from surviving to this day materials. Tocharians spoke INDO-EUROPEAN.

Some links with info about Tocharian language and origins:

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/tokol-0-X.html

http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm
 
Yamnaya folks were for a huge part West Asian

Yamnaya folks (3339 - 2635 BCE) were paternally descended from hunter-gatherer (5640 - 5555 BCE) who had lived in the same place before.

Gedrosian autosomal admixture could be from females (maybe they took wifes from among people south of them), not necessarily from males.

Y-DNA haplogroup of that hunter-gatherer from 5640 - 5555 BCE was ancestral to Y-DNA haplogroups of Yamnaya folks from 3339 - 2635 BCE.

Moreover that hunter from Samara was autosomally EHG (Eastern Euro Hunter-Gatherer) - and extremely close to Karelian R1a1 hunter.
 
where is the proof that all direct descendants of R1a1a are from that Karelian fella and not from another M17 (M417) uknown West Asian fella?

One mutation emerges only once. The same mutation (in this case M417) cannot emerge in two places at the same time (or at different times).

Authors of this new study found out that Karelian hunters were M17 (M417) which means they were ancestors of M417.

So M417 could emerge in West Asia only if Karelians migrated there, or if M17 (M417) was so widespread that it lived both in Karelia and West Asia. Both these ideas seem to be highly unlikely because we know that M17 was very few in numerous, so how could it live in such a vast area?

Now if we want to keep claiming that M417 emerged in Asia, then we need first to find ancient DNA from Asia which confirms this.

After these new discoveries from Karelia and East Germany, modern DNA is not enough to prove Asian origins of M417.

For the moment, the most probable conclusion is that M417 emerged in Eastern Europe. If we get new data from new aDNA, this might change.
 
Andronovo - R1a1a
Scythians - R1a1a

Hui Zhou from Jilin University, China, about Tocharian Y-DNA (which was found to be M417, but NOT Z93):
No Scythian man yet tested.

Andronovo horizon only tested in deep eastern part

Pseudo-Tocharian (Arsi and Kouchean) languages apeared in Tarim basin only in 3 century A.D. in the time when the Kushans came to Tarim basin.
 
Yamnaya folks (3339 - 2635 BCE) were paternally descended from hunter-gatherer (5640 - 5555 BCE) who had lived in the same place before.

Gedrosian autosomal admixture could be from females (maybe they took wifes from among people south of them), not necessarily from males.

Y-DNA haplogroup of that hunter-gatherer from 5640 - 5555 BCE was ancestral to Y-DNA haplogroups of Yamnaya folks from 3339 - 2635 BCE.

Moreover that hunter from Samara was autosomally EHG (Eastern Euro Hunter-Gatherer) - and extremely close to Karelian R1a1 hunter.
Lol, are you serious? What kind of excuse is this? I'm talking about Yamnaya and not Samara, China or Africa. They found R1b in Yamnaya and R1b = from West Asia. What has this to do with females? We're talking about R1b. And oldest subclades of R1b (like R1a* lineages) have been found in West Asia. Caucaso-Gedrosia component is part of R1b. Facts are: R1a is originally from West Asia. R1b is originally from West Asia. R1b is correlated with Caucaso-Gedrsosia component. R1a-Z93 is also correlated with Caucaso-Gedrosia component. They found R1b in Yamnaya. Yamnaya folks were also for a huge part Caucasia-Gedrosia folks. Caucaso-Gedrosia component is from West Asia. So Yamnaya folks that Indo-Europized most people in Europe were for a huge part West Asian. Most Indo-Europized Europeans in Europe don't even belong to that R1b subclade they found in Yamnaya Horizon. Maybe you're a nice fella, nothing personal, but you're so DEEP in denial that you are always looking for excuses (no matter how ridiculous they sound). I'm done with this. I don't have time for this nonsense with you. I'm done, bye, and have a nice day...
 
No Scythian man yet tested.

Check Copper-Bronze Age aDNA and then Iron Age aDNA sections:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml

Scythians = Tsaagan Asga, Takhilgat Uzuur, Tagar, Pazyryk and Tachtyk.

Andronovo = ancestors of Scythians (and of Indo-Iranians in general).

where r1b was involved in spreading indo-european languages in the west and r1a in the east.

What about R1a in Scandinavia, in the north. We have Z284 (most frequent in Norway), which is downstream from Z282.

Also R1a CTS4385 / L664 in North-Western Europe and it seems that M417 from Esperstedt (Corded Ware) was ancestral to it.

According to a new map from Eupedia (is it based on this new 2015 study by Haak et. al. ???), R1b came to Scandinavia 3700 years ago and to Britain 4100 years ago (see below). This would mean that Battle-Axe culture in Scandinavia was R1a Z284 (not R1b). Also it seems that R1a L664 (which could be found in Corded Ware) came to Britain around 4600 years - 500 years before R1b (if this map is correct):

R1b-migration-map.jpg
 
Robert6 said:
Andronovo horizon only tested in deep eastern part

Yamnaya samples also come from its deep eastern part !!!

Goga said:
I'm talking about Yamnaya and not Samara

And from this it becomes evident, that you don't know what you are talking about.


I mean - you have not checked where did they find these Yamnaya folks! :rolleyes:

Samara is a city (and a region) in Russia near the border with Kazakhstan.

Yamnaya skeletons were buried near Samara. And so was that hunter-gatherer.

All samples from Yamnaya (which is a culture) come from Samara (which is a location).

Please, before further discussion, take a look at this PDF document:
(y)

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

Most Indo-Europized Europeans in Europe don't even belong to that R1b subclade they found in Yamnaya Horizon

They found MORE than just ONE subclade. They found several subclades.

Seven Yamnaya individuals (from period 3339 - 2635 BCE) from the vicinity of Samara:

R1b1a2a2* Z2105+, L23+, L150+, M269+, L584-
R1b1a P297+, M173+, L51-
R1b1a2a2 CTS1078+, M269+, L150+, L320+
R1b1a2a* L49+, L23+, PF6399+, L150+, L1353+, PF6509+, M269+, CTS12478+, L51-, Z2105-
R1b1a2a2 CTS1078/Z2103+, L150+, M415+
R1b1a2a2* Z2105+, L23+, L320+, L584-, CTS7822-
R1b1a2a2* CTS1078+, Z2105+, L23+, PF6399+, L265+, PF6434+, L150.1+, PF6482+, M269+, L584-

Sources:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

And here on page 25:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

LeBrox said:
Yamnaya guys are very close and alike the two EHG samples

Exactly!
 
Check Copper-Bronze Age aDNA and then Iron Age aDNA sections:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml

Scythians = Tsaagan Asga, Takhilgat Uzuur, Tagar, Pazyryk and Tachtyk.

Andronovo = ancestors of Scythians (and of Indo-Iranians in general).

The mark of Scythians and some other Iranians is Acinaces
so not one of these cultures being tested is Scythian
Pazyryk culture is untested for Y-dna, only mtdna is tested and it is N1a

Andronovo horizon in west south central and northern part are untested
Tachtyks are Uraloids according to Alekseev the biggest anthropologist
etc
 
Pazyryk culture is untested for Y-dna

Wrong. There is R1a1a M17 from Pazyryk culture fom Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96K2], near Kosh-Agash, Russian Altai, ca. 450 BCE.

Check Ricaut 2004c and Keyser 2009. And also here: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

The mark of Scythians and some other Iranians is Acinaces
so not one of these cultures being tested is Scythian
You have a funny / strange definition of Scythians. Anyway - all of them were Indo-Europeans, whether Scythians or other IEs.

Tachtyks are Uraloids according to Alekseev the biggest anthropologist

"Uraloids" with blond hair and blue eyes ???:
:confused:

TACHTYK PIGMENTATION DATA - large image

Tachtyk.png


But if they mixed with Uraloid females then who knows.
 
And here for Andronovo:

Andronovo Pigmentation Data - image

Andronovo.png


Also here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#West_Eurasian_origin

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one the haplogroup C-M130 (xC3). MtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.

90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.[3]

A 2004 study also established that, during the Bronze/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the thirteenth to seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.[4]

As for this C from Andronovo - Paleolithic hunter-gatherer Kostenki man from Russia was also C.

==============================

Tagar culture is also full of light-haired R1a individuals:

Tagar Pigmentation Data - image

Tagar.png
 
On the other hand, pigmentation of Karasuk culture from Mongolia (1400 - 800 BCE) is already darker.

That's because they are: 44,4% (4) R1a1a1b2 Z93 + 11,1% (1) C-M130 + 11,1% (1) Q-M242 + 33,3% (3) Q1a2a1 L54.

The latter (especially Q1a2a1 L54 and Q-M242) introduced dark genes. But dark blond can still be found.

===============
===============

Check also this:

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index....thropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis

Kazakhstan.png


And this:

http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/Illustrationen/CentralAsiaPieChartsWeb.png

Fig. 2: Distribution of mitochondrial lineages in the Altai region.
Green: lineages today mainly found in modern Europe; blue: lineages today mainly found in modern East Asia:


Central_Asia_Pie_Charts_Web.png


This second graph is from: http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/English/Research/CentralAsia.html

(2) Sub-project “Steppe Nomads” (Martina Unterländer)

This study addresses the population dynamics in the Eurasian steppe during the Iron Age. It is carried out in collaboration with H. Parzinger (Director Preußischer Kulturbesitz), A. Nagler (German Archaeological Institute, Berlin), Z. Samachev (Margulan Institut für Archäologie, Akademie der Wissenschaft Kazakhstan, Almaty) and V.I. Molodin (Sibirisches Institut für Archäologie und Ethnographie, Akademgorodok, Russia). Beginning with the 9th century BC, there is evidence for clans of horse nomads from the Altai in the East to as far as North of the Black Sea. Because of the astounding uniformity of their material culture, life style and death rituals, they are often summarised under the term Scythians. The name ‘Scythian’ derives from a people mentioned in Herodotus’ Histories that populated the area north of the Black Sea in the 7th century BC. Their only material legacy is found in the form of kurgans, the impressive burial mounds of the Scythian elite. The earliest archaeological evidence of this culture stems from the region of Tuva, with the kurgan Arzan 1 dating to the 9th century BC. Until the 2nd century BC there are a number of populations in the area of the Eurasian steppe belt which can be assigned to that Scythian culture.

Together with our partners, we want to answer whether the obvious cultural homogeneity of these groups points to a common origin or rather to the phenomenon of acculturation. The intention is to understand the ethnogenesis and the population historical connections of these groups called Scythians.

Our data show highly diverse maternal lineages whose composition changes over time within the different populations. At the outset of the 1st century BC the examined populations of the Altai region show a relatively high number of lineages which today are found predominantly in Europe. Over time a change takes place which is reflected in an increased number of maternal lineages predominantly found today in East Asia.
 
On the other hand, pigmentation of Karasuk culture from Mongolia (1400 - 800 BCE) is already darker.

That's because they are: 44,5% (4) R1a1a1b2 Z93 + 11,1% (1) C-M130 + 11,1% (1) Q-M242 + 33,3% (3) Q1a2a1 L54.

The latter (especially Q1a2a1 L54 and Q-M242) introduced dark genes. But dark blond can still be found.

I think yourself and Goga misunderstand the paper.........its states from yamnya these people came from , it does not say they migrated through yamnya. regardless if they where east-asian or near eastern, they settled in yamnya, then over time moved to central europe. This claim can only come from haak via a skeltral reading of its isotopes
 
Are you sure that you quoted correct post? Maybe by mistake you quoted wrong post.

Because I don't see any connection between that quote and your response to it.
 
Even today there are red haired people with blue eyes Uraloids, the Udmurts for Example
 

You have a funny / strange definition of Scythians. .
This is a definition of Archeologists, Scythians =(those who had) Scythian Iron Acinaces + Scythian Animal style
Scythian Animal style is close to previous Luristan Bronze( in west Iran) of late Bronze age
 
Red-haired maybe but not blond-haired - like most of ancient R1a which is blond-haired.

Also R1a people were those who brought blond hair to Scandinavia.

As I wrote before, R1a Z284 (or its ancestral clade) was in Scandinavia before R1b.

Another question is when did I1 come to Scandinavia (it was not among Pitted Ware, it is not native to Scandinavia, it was among LBK farmers from Hungary, who were later absorbed by Corded Ware). IMO Battle Axe culture (a branch of CW) was R1a Z284 mixed with I1 (who were originally LBK farmers, but got absorbed by Corded). Probably I1 acquired blond hair from R1a-related maternal lineages and later both were spreading it. Another evidence for mixing between Corded Ware and previous LBK farmers is that R1a M417 guy from Esperstedt (his mtDNA was H23, which was most probably acquired from Neolithic farmers of LBK - an evidence that pastoralist males of Corded Ware mixed with farmer women who had been there before).

So we have R1a Z284 + I1 coming to Scandinavia with Corded Ware (Battle Axe culture) and R1b came later.

===========================

How "Uraloid" are actually the Udmurts ??? They speak a language from Uralic family, but "Uraloid" is an anthropological term (not linguistic).

The Udmurts look like regular Eastern Europeans, not like Uraloids. When I googled Uraloid I got people looking like this:

For example like this
 
And Baltic Finnic N1c1 could acquire blond hair from R1a-related maternal lineages in Karelia.
 
These are very rare cases.

On the other hand among those Bronze and Iron Age cultures where majority of males were R1a, blond hair was common.

=============================

Wait - has someone just deleted a lot of posts from this thread ???
 

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