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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There is no correlation between R1b and blond hair.

    But those kurgan cultures which were found to be R1a - were also found to be light-pigmented.

    Andronovo, Tachtyk, Pazyryk, Tagar & Tocharian = R1a with a lot of blond + light brown + brown hair.

    This is evident both from pigmentation extracted from genes, and from hair preserved in mummies:













    Proto-Tocharians were R1a1:



    ============================

    Of course not all of them were blond & brown hair. Red hair & dark hair could also be found.

    Blue and green eyes were most common among them:















    =========================

    About pigmentation derived from genes (in addition to pigmentation preserved in mummies) I wrote here:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post449880
    It's crazy how well those mummies are preserved. Those IEs from central and north Asia are pretty much our (dead)half-brothers. About Half our blood comes from the Neolithic-Bronze age Steppe and about 100% of their blood did. Those mummies+Basque or Sardinians=Most Euros.

    I was told by a someone who's looking at SNPs associated with traits from the genomes in Haak 2015, and he said the younger samples have higher frequencies of markers associated with light pigmentation than their ancestors. This is consistent with other ancient DNA studies.

    A 4,000YBP Pole was said to be "dark complected", and the steppe samples that were even as young as 4,000-4,5000YBP had markers for dark pigmentation. Our steppe ancestors were probably much darker than these mummies. My guess is there was gradually change that occurred throughout Europe 6,000-3,000YBP, that included these mummies' ancestors.

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    I like to mention that the Gedrosian element is associated with Baluchistan, Pakistan, however that is the present-day destination of these people i.e. their descendents. Their ancestors were probably living in the Middle East, say Elam in Persia which was destroyed by Cyrus the Great when he created the Persian Empire and scattered the Elamites. Some went to Europe and some to ancient India. I think the Indus Valley Civilization and Elam were probably one large continuous civilization.

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    Another photo of the Ukok Princess (IE Scythian, Pazyryk culture):





    Reconstructions:



    Her tattoos:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...anged-art.html

    http://jittaaa005.deviantart.com/art...cess-446313049

    http://galleryhip.com/scythian-warrior-tattoo.html

    The Siberian Times said: "The tattoos on the left shoulder of the 'princess' show a mythological animal - a deer with a griffon's beak and a Capricorn's antlers. 'The antlers are decorated with the heads of griffons.

    'And the same griffon's head is shown on the back of the animal.

    The mouth of a spotted panther with a long tail is seen at the legs of a sheep.

    'She also has a dear's head on her wrist, with big antlers.

    'There is a drawing on the animal's body on a thumb on her left hand.

    'On the man found close to the 'princess', the tattoos include the same fantastical creature, this time covering the right side of his body, across his right shoulder and stretching from his chest to his back.

    'The patterns mirror the tattoos on a much more elaborately covered male body dug from the ice in 1929 whose highly decorated torso in reconstructed in our drawing here.

    'His chest, arms, part of the back and the lower leg are covered with tattoos. There is an argali - a mountain sheep - along with the same dear with griffon's vulture-like beak, with horns and the back of its head which has griffon's head and an onager drawn on it.'

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz3S3EcEDS6
    =======================================

    "The Ukok plateau, Altai, Siberia, where Princess and two warriors were discovered. Their bodies were surrounded by six horses fully bridles, various offering of food and a pouch of cannabis":



    Another homeland picture:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rthquakes.html



    And from wikipedia:


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    "Indigenous" inhabitants did not like that the reconstruction is so much European-looking:

    http://politicalhotwire.com/current-...ian-mummy.html

    He was explaining to them that, curse or no curse, the Altai and other Native Siberian people are tired of Slavic archeologists and other scientists messing with their dead ancestors.
    However, she is not "their dead ancestor", as genetic research shows (and is indeed closer to Europeans):

    http://rt.com/news/181308-siberian-ice-maiden-bury/

    Many people in Altay believe that the remains to belong to a legendary ancestor and a powerful princess. (...) Ironically, DNA tests on the Ice Maiden, and other remains of people who belonged to the nomadic Pazyryk culture that inhabited the Ukok Plateau, proved that she cannot be an ancestor of the people living in the Altay Region now. The Pazyryk are genetically closest to Siberian Ket and Selkup peoples, but are further from the Altay people than from, for example, Germans, Basques or Russians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Ice_Maiden

    A reconstruction of the Ice Maiden’s face was created using her skull, in conjunction with measurements taken from the skulls, facial features, and skin thickness of present-day Altai inhabitants. The artist who created the reconstruction, Tanya Balueva, was documented as saying that the Ice Maiden “is a clear-cut example of the Caucasian race with no typically Mongolian features.” Rima Eriknova, the director of the Altai Regional Museum, is not in agreement, commenting that, “They made the Ice Maiden completely European.”[6]

    DNA testing confirmed that the woman was not related to the native Mongoloids in present-day Altai. Prior to the testing, she had been believed to be their ancestor.
    =================================

    EDIT after post #105 [this is another woman, but also from Pazyryk culture, and from the same region]:

    Reconstruction of another steppe female from roughly the same region. Also European-looking:

    http://www.ryot.org/frozen-mummy-tat...duction/919290



    https://twitter.com/praeparator

    "Bone structure showed she was a skilled rider and bow woman, hence the Greek legends of the Amazones seem to be real. The 'Amazon' was buried together with a man and with horses in a big double grave in a Kurgan":



    Though I'm not sure if this reconstruction and that from post #103 are reconstructions of exactly the same woman ???

  5. #105
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    Yes - this is another woman.

    Ukok "Princess" and this "Amazon" from post #104 are two different women - even though from the same region:

    It is also a finding of the Altai region, but the body was NOT naturally mummified (like the "Princess"), only bones were left.
    "Princess" was a mummy, while this "Amazon" was only a skeleton.

    Also the "Princess" was buried with two men and 6 horses. This "Amazon" was buried with only one man.

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    This map seems reliable in the light of these new genetic findings (PIE origin between Baltic Sea, Ural and Pontic-Caspian steppe):

    http://steppeasia.pagesperso-orange....andronovo3.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    "Indigenous" inhabitants did not like that the reconstruction is so much European-looking:

    http://politicalhotwire.com/current-...ian-mummy.html



    However, she is not "their dead ancestor", as genetic research shows (and is indeed closer to Europeans):

    http://rt.com/news/181308-siberian-ice-maiden-bury/



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Ice_Maiden



    =================================

    EDIT after post #105 [this is another woman, but also from Pazyryk culture, and from the same region]:

    Reconstruction of another steppe female from roughly the same region. Also European-looking:

    http://www.ryot.org/frozen-mummy-tat...duction/919290



    https://twitter.com/praeparator

    "Bone structure showed she was a skilled rider and bow woman, hence the Greek legends of the Amazones seem to be real. The 'Amazon' was buried together with a man and with horses in a big double grave in a Kurgan":



    Though I'm not sure if this reconstruction and that from post #103 are reconstructions of exactly the same woman ???
    She has a very high nose root and bridge. Perhaps this is part of Caucasus admixture? They are known for their noses.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    I like to mention that the Gedrosian element is associated with Baluchistan, Pakistan, however that is the present-day destination of these people i.e. their descendents. Their ancestors were probably living in the Middle East, say Elam in Persia which was destroyed by Cyrus the Great when he created the Persian Empire and scattered the Elamites. Some went to Europe and some to ancient India. I think the Indus Valley Civilization and Elam were probably one large continuous civilization.

    I have some hard work to link the northwest Europe 'gedrosia' to Sumer or Harappa, Indus Valley - 'gedrosia' ELEMENTS of the today 'gedrosia' component were present in Siberia and East Eurasia between 40000 and 20000 BC !!! 'gedrosia' is almost absent in Mediterranea and Souteastern Europe today, and even ANE is weak in this last region - the 'gedrosia' in Near Eastern / Iran / Caucasus is recent enough (more than an ethny send it in a tremendous History)
    the concerned 'gedrosia' is northern, steppic, not southern, and ANE too...
    the sumerian and Harappa cultural elements were exported to southern Steppes across BMAC but they received impulses from more northern culture (maybe proto-Hurrits/Hurrians of S-E Caspian, possible promotors of BMAC -

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    What I meant is that when modern humans exited Africa they probably lived around the Persian Gulf which was just above sea level (and probably where Haplogroup IJ wasn't split up yet). There were Haplogroups F, G, H, I, J and K. Elam's western coastline is the Persian Gulf. Then there is Haplogroup K out of which came Haplogroups L, M, N, O, P, Q and R. Those people around the Persian Gulf then spread East North and West. This what I meant. In the North (Siberia and Central Asia), Haplogroups R and Q dominated and reduced other groups throughout history with invasions. In the west Haplogroup R dominated Europe. So the Gedrosia element is really the Iranian element. Since Haplogroup R also dominates Iran the original inhabitants of the Persian gulf area changed but they survived in Gedrosia (Baluchistan, Pakistan). The Gedrosia element is the original Iranian inhabitants.

    Even today's Gedrosia would be quite different as it is controlled by Muslims who separated from India after the Partition in 1947.
    Last edited by oriental; 20-02-15 at 02:38.

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    Data for three steppe IE cultures - Andronovo + Tachtyk + Tagar:

    1. Hair pigmentation (when known):

    blond or light brown - 6 (60%)
    brown - 3
    dark brown - 1

    2. Y-DNA haplogroups (when known):

    R1a1a - 9 (90%)
    C (not C3) - 1 -------------------> individual with C had dark brown hair

    3. mtDNA haplogroups (for everyone):

    T3 - 3
    H or U - 3
    T1 - 2
    C - 2
    U4 - 2
    U5a1 - 1
    U2e - 1
    H5 - 1
    H6 - 1
    T2a1b1 - 1
    K2b - 1
    I4 - 1
    G2a - 1
    Z1 - 1
    HV - 1
    F1b - 1
    N9a - 1

    4. mtDNA of individuals with blond or light brown hair:

    T1 - 2
    C - 2
    N9a - 1
    U5a1 - 1

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    Very interesting Tomenable, thank you very much; and the woman is really beautiful;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Data for three steppe IE cultures - Andronovo + Tachtyk + Tagar:

    1. Hair pigmentation (when known):

    blond or light brown - 6 (60%)
    brown - 3
    dark brown - 1

    2. Y-DNA haplogroups (when known):

    R1a1a - 9 (90%)
    C (not C3) - 1 -------------------> individual with C had dark brown hair

    3. mtDNA haplogroups (for everyone):

    T3 - 3
    H or U - 3
    T1 - 2
    C - 2
    U4 - 2
    U5a1 - 1
    U2e - 1
    H5 - 1
    H6 - 1
    T2a1b1 - 1
    K2b - 1
    I4 - 1
    G2a - 1
    Z1 - 1
    HV - 1
    F1b - 1
    N9a - 1

    4. mtDNA of individuals with blond or light brown hair:

    T1 - 2
    C - 2
    N9a - 1
    U5a1 - 1
    I don't know how they determined hair color. I read the study and they tested for very few SNPs associated with hair color. But I guess the mummies prove they had a wide-range of hair colors.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    It's funny. I was gazing at those mummies in awe like everyone else, silent and noble relics of our ancestors.

    But then I read a little more and the region was all about traders. I guess one of the mummies was an ancient hat salesman/maker. They buried him with like 50 different kinds of hats LOL.

    Another sort of funny tidbit. The Chinese records of these "red haired and green eyed people who look like monkeys" also said that they like to drink excessively. Indo-Europeans haven't changed in thousands of years.

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    who look like monkeys
    It is the deep-set eyes and hairy face that elicited those comments.

    They were in Chinese documents expressing their observations. I am sure there are lots of literature from western sources where there are observations of other people that would be awkward for the observed people to read.

    http://animals.nationalgeographic.co...rhesus-monkey/

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    It is the deep-set eyes and hairy face that elicited those comments.

    They were in Chinese documents expressing their observations. I am sure there are lots of literature from western sources where there are observations of other people that would be awkward for the observed people to read.

    http://animals.nationalgeographic.co...rhesus-monkey/

    it's funny - especially the bit about drinking too much

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    drinking too much
    Since it was a dry area the Tocharians lived in drinking was a precious activity. However, alcohol was a safe liquid to drink as it would kill any bacteria or neutralize micro-organisms. When one drink alcoholized drink one can be rather addicted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    It's funny. I was gazing at those mummies in awe like everyone else, silent and noble relics of our ancestors.

    But then I read a little more and the region was all about traders. I guess one of the mummies was an ancient hat salesman/maker. They buried him with like 50 different kinds of hats LOL.

    Another sort of funny tidbit. The Chinese records of these "red haired and green eyed people who look like monkeys" also said that they like to drink excessively. Indo-Europeans haven't changed in thousands of years.
    Compared to east Asian people, west Eurasians do kind of look like Monkeys. The few times I've been in a place filled with east Asians, I've noticed they have very different structured skulls. Their heads are much more straight, boxy, and bigger. West Eurasians have very round and curvy heads compared to East Asians, that could appear to be similar to monkeys. To be honest I kind of look like a monkey and people have said this before.

    I read a description of Huns(Turks who invaded Europe during Roman times) by a Roman and Goth. The Goth who wrote in Greek said they weren't even human, but were some type of devil spawned in the forest. He put emphasis on their small eyes, dark complexion, short stature, big heads, etc. The Roman writer gave basically the same description, and I think he also said they were evil supernatural beings.

    To the Chinese Tocherians and maybe a few other nations(Sycthians, I don't know) were the only humans on earth with European features. To Germans and Romans the Huns were the only humans on earth with east Asian features. Both it appears treated them as very strange, un-human, and exaggerated their distinct features.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Compared to east Asian people, west Eurasians do kind of look like Monkeys. The few times I've been in a place filled with east Asians, I've noticed they have very different structured skulls. Their heads are much more straight, boxy, and bigger. West Eurasians have very round and curvy heads compared to East Asians, that could appear to be similar to monkeys. To be honest I kind of look like a monkey and people have said this before.

    I read a description of Huns(Turks who invaded Europe during Roman times) by a Roman and Goth. The Goth who wrote in Greek said they weren't even human, but were some type of devil spawned in the forest. He put emphasis on their small eyes, dark complexion, short stature, big heads, etc. The Roman writer gave basically the same description, and I think he also said they were evil supernatural beings.

    To the Chinese Tocherians and maybe a few other nations(Sycthians, I don't know) were the only humans on earth with European features. To Germans and Romans the Huns were the only humans on earth with east Asian features. Both it appears treated them as very strange, un-human, and exaggerated their distinct features.
    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    It is the deep-set eyes and hairy face that elicited those comments.

    They were in Chinese documents expressing their observations. I am sure there are lots of literature from western sources where there are observations of other people that would be awkward for the observed people to read.

    http://animals.nationalgeographic.co...rhesus-monkey/
    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    it's funny - especially the bit about drinking too much
    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    Since it was a dry area the Tocharians lived in drinking was a precious activity. However, alcohol was a safe liquid to drink as it would kill any bacteria or neutralize micro-organisms. When one drink alcoholized drink one can be rather addicted.
    It's in one of Mallory's books I've been revisiting. The reference states that they were "given to excessive drinking", which to me sounds like good old IE partying. Pretty funny. Romans say the same about the Celts of course too. Indeed it seems like IE people have a special talent for getting wasted, and those assholes had to pass on those genes to me. I mean, I don't go to meetings or anything, but in a social setting I'm definitely "given to excessive drinking".

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    It's in one of Mallory's books I've been revisiting. The reference states that they were "given to excessive drinking", which to me sounds like good old IE partying. Pretty funny. Romans say the same about the Celts of course too. Indeed it seems like IE people have a special talent for getting wasted, and those assholes had to pass on those genes to me. I mean, I don't go to meetings or anything, but in a social setting I'm definitely "given to excessive drinking".
    "Beaker people" drank alcohol(and other liquids) out of containers this big. It was so important to them they were buried with them.



    You should bring one to your next social gathering :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    "Beaker people" drank alcohol(and other liquids) out of containers this big. It was so important to them they were buried with them.



    You should bring one to your next social gathering :)
    Perfect size.

    Beaker People is a weird thing. It think the consensus is an elite class, shamanistic perhaps, associated with what I guess would be a get everyone drunk cult. I dunno. But it could also just be a really high quality, nice pot that everyone wanted at the time essentially making it appear among prestige items. I can just imagine "ohhh sweet you got a Adzigringin bowl, dude they're the shit. My mom's had hers in the family for 100 years. It's been dropped countless times and been under the hottest fires."

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    At this point there are no viable arguments, which can can be provided to support an IE homeland in the Steppe, or anywhere in Central Asia. The Steppe theory is dead among the majority of serious researchers, but lingers among the select few, who can't help but to indulge in their own self-delusions.

    Underhill's unparalleled study of R1a used 16,244 individuals from over 126 populations from across Eurasia, concluding there was "compelling evidence", that R1a-M420 originated in Iran.

    (Underhill 2014)
    "Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus"

    As for R1b...


    (Grugni, 2012)
    "The M530 diffusion pattern seems to be also shared by the paragroups J2a-M410* and J2a-PAGE55*. In addition, the variance distribution of the rare R1b-M269* Y chromosomes, displaying decreasing values from Iran, Anatolia and the western Black Sea coastal region, is also suggestive of a westward diffusion from the Iranian plateau"

    Early R1b (the ultra rare M343, M269*) and R1a, are clearly more statistically frequent in West Asian samples - and even without the combination of archaeological, anthropological, and linguistic data, that fact alone, is compelling enough for any reasonable person, to seriously consider a West Asian homeland. Europe is mostly marked by late R1b, though there is early R1b, in the Steppes. And this R1b has little variance, which is precisely to be expected from a population which was clearly under the genetic influence from West Asia, since at least, the Neolithic. Of course, the natural explanation to this anomaly, according to Steppe theorists, is that these early forms somehow disappeared, like a fart in the wind, from all over Europe. Yeah, when it comes to Steppe theorists, anything goes - just conjure some ancient skeletons and vanishing hordes of people, and you have a grand work of fiction (and more like horror) which any garden-variety Steppe theorist, can conveniently entertain as 'proof'. In reality early R1b (originating from West Asia), is only expected in earlier Steppe skeletons, where there was multiple waves of influence from the Iranian plateau.

    This is so glaringly obvious, and so painfully true, that Steppe theorists have taken to an impulsive rejection of data and reason, and resorted to irrational defenses. From more impartial views on the subject, and notably from those with European ancestry, a West Asian homeland, has been supported. Dieniekes Pontikos has long supported a West Asian hypothesis. Mariya Ivanova has noted the clear influence in Yamna from it's parent culture, the Maykop, of the South Caspian region. (Ivanova M. 2012. Kaukasus und Orient: Die Entstehung des„Maikop-Phänomens“ im 4. Jahrtausend v.Chr Praehistorische Zeitschrift 2012; 87(1): 1–28) More recently, Giacomo Benedetti wrote a brilliant piece, using several lines of evidence, to support a homeland in the Northern Zagros. A fine work, which can only be considered an epitaph for Steppe theorists. new-indology.blogspot.com/2014/10/can-we-finally-identify-real-cradle-of.html

    I'd find it easier to believe Mother Theresa and her boyfriend, once robbed a bank at gunpoint, butt-naked, than to listen to any Steppe theorist give me a perverted coaching on how the world is. Giacomo Benedetti is no crackpot, and Dienekes Pontikos is no liar. We can be fairly certain, because they have very little to gain or satisfy, in constructing a phony theory for PIE origins, placing the homeland half way around the world. This is in stark contrast to any arm-chair enthusiast, whose only goal is to fictionalize historical scenarios, in order to appease their own nationalism, and to preserve their honor, in a basement somewhere. Note that Benedetti, is actually an Indologist. And one with a PhD. So the suggestion that he is out to satisfy himself, by suggesting some arbitrary NW Iranian hypothesis, is contradictory. As for Dienikes Pontikos, he is generally well regarded, and has long been so.



    I'll leave you with a quote from Benedetti's site. Read it and weep:

    "I have the impression that the Aryan Invasionism follows the same method as Creationism. The supporters of the Indo-Iranian invasion from the European steppes of Central and South Asia have no sacred text to defend, although sometimes they use the Vedas or the Avesta with biased (often racial) interpretations. They have a sort of preconceived faith, maybe based on a secret, obstinate Eurocentrism: Europeans must be the conquerors of the Indo-European world, and not the conquered or colonized, they must be the origin of the change, not the recipients. So, they already firmly believe that the Indo-Aryans must have arrived there in the 2nd millennium BC, and so we have to find, in one way or another, the facts able to support that dogma. I think that we should rather start from the archaeological facts, and build a theory from there, seeing if we find a harmony with linguistics and textual traditions, and also genetics"
    Last edited by jpz79; 19-02-16 at 20:14.

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    @jpz79:
    when you evocate facts your are interesting, spite facts can be diversely interpreted sometimes. But when you fall into pub-counter philosophy you are no more so interesting.
    I can say that because I have no fossilized theory for I-Eans cradle. And for Western Europeans where Y-R1b is very very dominant,the Russian Steppes are more "asian" than something else. Questions remain about the cradle of PIE (language) and about the true signification of variance. We have yet to trace the roads of the different subclades of Y-R1b (more than one I think).
    I repeat: I have at this very day NO definitive theory concerning I-Eans, nor prejudice, contrary to someones who accuse others of this vice;

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    do Notice I don't accuse you personally of prejudice,at this stage. Good evening.

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    Jpz79,

    I agree that both R1a-M420 and R1b-M343 most likely originated in the Iranian Plateau during the Upper Paleolithic period some 22,000 years ago (YFull's estimate of the time when R1 split into R1a and R1b).

    However, this doesn't tell us absolutely anything about the Indo-European origins, unless you have proofs that the Proto-Indo-European language already existed during the Upper Paleolithic period around 22,000 years ago.

    You could as well become an Afro-Centrist and claim that Indo-Europeans came from Africa - and that would be to some extent true, because all humans came from Africa - so very distant ancestors of Indo-Europeans too.

    But that's not the point here.

    Subclades such as R1a-M420* paragroup or R1b-V88 simply do not correlate with Indo-European languages. And Indo-Iranian languages correlate mostly with R1a-Z93/Z94, which almost certainly originated in the Volga Region.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by jpz79 View Post
    At this point there are no viable arguments, which can can be provided to support an IE homeland in the Steppe, or anywhere in Central Asia. The Steppe theory is dead among the majority of serious researchers, but lingers among the select few, who can't help but to indulge in their own self-delusions.
    Welcome to Eupedia?

    Your above statement ignores a key factor: the very concept of the Indo-European languages comes from linguistics in the first place, and the in combination with archaeology. If the theory was "dead" amongst the majority of researchers (who precisely?) as you loud and clear anounce, why did Ringe and Anthony publish their paper back in 2015, which summarizes the situation to the point? The way I see it, there's a very strong argument in conjunction between linguistics and archaeology: namely that there's common words for "horse", "wheel" (or "wheeled vehicle") reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European, and via archaeology we can trace where horses were first domesticated and where wheels were first invented (hint: both happened not on the Iranian plateau). I'd like to remind you that back in the early 2000s, there was the opinion amongst geneticists that R1b originated in the Franco-Iberian glacial refuge, and that neither the introduction of agriculture nor the introduction of metal-working had any effect on the genetic makeup of Europe, which we know today is a completely wrong view. I think its careless and hasty to declare "the Pontic-Caspian model is dead". How would you explain that Proto-Indo-European has common words for "horse" and "wheel" if they originated in the Iranian plateau (my main point of contention for example with the Anatolian hypothesis)?

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