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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpz79 View Post
    At this point there are no viable arguments, which can can be provided to support an IE homeland in the Steppe, or anywhere in Central Asia. The Steppe theory is dead among the majority of serious researchers, but lingers among the select few, who can't help but to indulge in their own self-delusions.

    Underhill's unparalleled study of R1a used 16,244 individuals from over 126 populations from across Eurasia, concluding there was "compelling evidence", that R1a-M420 originated in Iran.

    (Underhill 2014)
    "Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus"

    As for R1b...


    (Grugni, 2012)
    "The M530 diffusion pattern seems to be also shared by the paragroups J2a-M410* and J2a-PAGE55*. In addition, the variance distribution of the rare R1b-M269* Y chromosomes, displaying decreasing values from Iran, Anatolia and the western Black Sea coastal region, is also suggestive of a westward diffusion from the Iranian plateau"

    Early R1b (the ultra rare M343, M269*) and R1a, are clearly more statistically frequent in West Asian samples - and even without the combination of archaeological, anthropological, and linguistic data, that fact alone, is compelling enough for any reasonable person, to seriously consider a West Asian homeland. Europe is mostly marked by late R1b, though there is early R1b, in the Steppes. And this R1b has little variance, which is precisely to be expected from a population which was clearly under the genetic influence from West Asia, since at least, the Neolithic. Of course, the natural explanation to this anomaly, according to Steppe theorists, is that these early forms somehow disappeared, like a fart in the wind, from all over Europe. Yeah, when it comes to Steppe theorists, anything goes - just conjure some ancient skeletons and vanishing hordes of people, and you have a grand work of fiction (and more like horror) which any garden-variety Steppe theorist, can conveniently entertain as 'proof'. In reality early R1b (originating from West Asia), is only expected in earlier Steppe skeletons, where there was multiple waves of influence from the Iranian plateau.

    This is so glaringly obvious, and so painfully true, that Steppe theorists have taken to an impulsive rejection of data and reason, and resorted to irrational defenses. From more impartial views on the subject, and notably from those with European ancestry, a West Asian homeland, has been supported. Dieniekes Pontikos has long supported a West Asian hypothesis. Mariya Ivanova has noted the clear influence in Yamna from it's parent culture, the Maykop, of the South Caspian region. (Ivanova M. 2012. Kaukasus und Orient: Die Entstehung des„Maikop-Phänomens“ im 4. Jahrtausend v.Chr Praehistorische Zeitschrift 2012; 87(1): 1–28) More recently, Giacomo Benedetti wrote a brilliant piece, using several lines of evidence, to support a homeland in the Northern Zagros. A fine work, which can only be considered an epitaph for Steppe theorists. new-indology.blogspot.com/2014/10/can-we-finally-identify-real-cradle-of.html

    I'd find it easier to believe Mother Theresa and her boyfriend, once robbed a bank at gunpoint, butt-naked, than to listen to any Steppe theorist give me a perverted coaching on how the world is. Giacomo Benedetti is no crackpot, and Dienekes Pontikos is no liar. We can be fairly certain, because they have very little to gain or satisfy, in constructing a phony theory for PIE origins, placing the homeland half way around the world. This is in stark contrast to any arm-chair enthusiast, whose only goal is to fictionalize historical scenarios, in order to appease their own nationalism, and to preserve their honor, in a basement somewhere. Note that Benedetti, is actually an Indologist. And one with a PhD. So the suggestion that he is out to satisfy himself, by suggesting some arbitrary NW Iranian hypothesis, is contradictory. As for Dienikes Pontikos, he is generally well regarded, and has long been so.



    I'll leave you with a quote from Benedetti's site. Read it and weep:

    "I have the impression that the Aryan Invasionism follows the same method as Creationism. The supporters of the Indo-Iranian invasion from the European steppes of Central and South Asia have no sacred text to defend, although sometimes they use the Vedas or the Avesta with biased (often racial) interpretations. They have a sort of preconceived faith, maybe based on a secret, obstinate Eurocentrism: Europeans must be the conquerors of the Indo-European world, and not the conquered or colonized, they must be the origin of the change, not the recipients. So, they already firmly believe that the Indo-Aryans must have arrived there in the 2nd millennium BC, and so we have to find, in one way or another, the facts able to support that dogma. I think that we should rather start from the archaeological facts, and build a theory from there, seeing if we find a harmony with linguistics and textual traditions, and also genetics"
    Goga?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Welcome to Eupedia?

    Your above statement ignores a key factor: the very concept of the Indo-European languages comes from linguistics in the first place, and the in combination with archaeology. If the theory was "dead" amongst the majority of researchers (who precisely?) as you loud and clear anounce, why did Ringe and Anthony publish their paper back in 2015, which summarizes the situation to the point? The way I see it, there's a very strong argument in conjunction between linguistics and archaeology: namely that there's common words for "horse", "wheel" (or "wheeled vehicle") reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European, and via archaeology we can trace where horses were first domesticated and where wheels were first invented (hint: both happened not on the Iranian plateau). I'd like to remind you that back in the early 2000s, there was the opinion amongst geneticists that R1b originated in the Franco-Iberian glacial refuge, and that neither the introduction of agriculture nor the introduction of metal-working had any effect on the genetic makeup of Europe, which we know today is a completely wrong view. I think its careless and hasty to declare "the Pontic-Caspian model is dead". How would you explain that Proto-Indo-European has common words for "horse" and "wheel" if they originated in the Iranian plateau (my main point of contention for example with the Anatolian hypothesis)?
    I guess Iranians are just that pissed that their people came from modern day Russia. Has anyone informed them about the prevailing out of Africa model? They're gonna be livid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Goga?

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    No it’s not me. I’m banned until 24/2/2016. So I’ll be back very soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Your above statement ignores a key factor: the very concept of the Indo-European languages comes from linguistics in the first place, and the in combination with archaeology. If the theory was "dead" amongst the majority of researchers (who precisely?) as you loud and clear anounce, why did Ringe and Anthony publish which summarizes the situation to the point? The way I see it, there's a very strong argument in conjunction between linguistics and archaeology: namely that there's common words for "horse", "wheel" (or "wheeled vehicle") reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European, and via archaeology we can trace where horses were first domesticated and where wheels were first invented (hint: both happened not on the Iranian plateau). I'd like to remind you that back in the early 2000s, there was the opinion amongst geneticists that R1b originated in the Franco-Iberian glacial refuge, and that neither the introduction of agriculture nor the introduction of metal-working had any effect on the genetic makeup of Europe, which we know today is a completely wrong view. I think its careless and hasty to declare "the Pontic-Caspian model is dead". How would you explain that Proto-Indo-European has common words for "horse" and "wheel" if they originated in the Iranian plateau (my main point of contention for example with the Anatolian hypothesis)?
    This is a stupid argument and countered many times. Many folks explained this many times. Think about Computer. Everybody is using it since the introduction of computer. From Africa to china.

    Does that mean that Chinese and Africans are the same?

    Wheel was just an universal tool/word that was used by many different races.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I guess Iranians are just that pissed that their people came from modern day Russia. Has anyone informed them about the prevailing out of Africa model? They're gonna be livid.
    Nah! Are you jealous of history of Aryans?


    Mypeople came from an advanced civilization and made human eating savages into human beings in thesteppes. People the Yamnaya region were heavily influenced by folks from theIranian Plateau. Never forget that.

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    See you soon. I will come back very soon. I'm banned until 24/2/2016, So just 4 days...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Jpz79,

    I agree that both R1a-M420 and R1b-M343 most likely originated in the Iranian Plateau during the Upper Paleolithic period some 22,000 years ago (YFull's estimate of the time when R1 split into R1a and R1b).

    However, this doesn't tell us absolutely anything about the Indo-European origins, unless you have proofs that the Proto-Indo-European language already existed during the Upper Paleolithic period around 22,000 years ago.

    You could as well become an Afro-Centrist and claim that Indo-Europeans came from Africa - and that would be to some extent true, because all humans came from Africa - so very distant ancestors of Indo-Europeans too.

    But that's not the point here.

    Subclades such as R1a-M420* paragroup or R1b-V88 simply do not correlate with Indo-European languages. And Indo-Iranian languages correlate mostly with R1a-Z93/Z94, which almost certainly originated in the Volga Region.
    The most important fact is who survived and where that Last Glacial Maximum. It really segregated, depopulated and severely bottlenecked all the populations of Central and North Eurasia and the whole Europe. The most interesting point should be 10,000 BC (End of Ice Age) the starting point of all Admixtures migration and recombination. At 10k BC they still in their secluded places (refugia) and pure.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goga (two) View Post
    No it’s not me. I’m banned until 24/2/2016. So I’ll be back very soon.
    Looking forward to it. Sorry about the banning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goga (two) View Post
    Nah! Are you jealous of history of Aryans?


    Mypeople came from an advanced civilization and made human eating savages into human beings in thesteppes. People the Yamnaya region were heavily influenced by folks from theIranian Plateau. Never forget that.
    Classic Goga. I do enjoy it. Tonight is lame but you gave me a reason to do something.

    proto-Aryans=Sintashta

    And that's badass, why would you be averse to the first chariot builders? It's so strange. I'm trying to convince an Iranian enthusiast that the indo-Iranians were awesome. Don't get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    pure.
    made me chuckle

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    made me chuckle
    Did I misspell something again, lol.
    Yes, pure gedrosia, pure caucasus, pure ENF, pure WHG, pure ANE, etc. The sources of pure admixtures we can find at exactly that time.

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    Such a PCA chart (based on Fig.1. from Mathieson 10.10.2015 and on Fig.2. from Olalde 19.11.2015):



    Fig.1. from Mathieson 2015: http://i.imgur.com/gdAA3OR.jpg

    Olalde: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/12/3132.full

    Check also Fig.1. here: http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by goga (two) View Post
    This is a stupid argument and countered many times. Many folks explained this many times. Think about Computer. Everybody is using it since the introduction of computer. From Africa to china.

    Does that mean that Chinese and Africans are the same?

    Wheel was just an universal tool/word that was used by many different races.
    Let's compare what is comparable. Every comparison between past and present (and I don't speak of future!) is not by force valuable. In present we can see a model and buy it through the Net, at those times innovations came not with a man only but with a good bunch of them (roads were unsure) and took little more time to expand everywhere, even if they could run faster than believe someones. But it depended surely too of the their utility not always the same depending on geographic peculiarities and cultural levels and habits.
    I accept the caution concerning some words: words present in PIE means they could be found in almost all the "son" languages at some stage of their evolution, but doesn' t exclude they could have been borrowed from ONE other language or from several. Then we have to find these words one together or separated in the supposed "giver"language(S)... Here I confess my knowledge is still limited in ancient I-Ean so...
    I ask you: do you know if the wheel and charriots and wagons and horse taming and so on... covered Eurasia and West-Asia at the very same time and everywhere, in every culture?
    What seems sure is that first I-Eans had all these things BEFORE expand and did not acquired them separately after expansion into Europe and Asia. Unity of forms AND respect of phonetic evolution rules seems confirm this. Apart the problem of initial possible loans. I answer you here about your objection based on today life, I have not a magic solution to the question of initial cradle.
    PLus: today Iranian language concerning verbal grammar shows rather a remodeling of verbal conjugaisons (as does Germani languages): possible acculturation of a formerly NON-I-Ean speaking population??? Not without weight? the Slavic, Romance, Greek and even Celtic languages shows for me a closer position to what could have been ancient I-Ean. I don't know the Avesta language and cannot do comparisons, but maybe specialists can do it and precise us if there has been a strong evolution from old Iranian to today Iranian. They will be welcome.
    Nos da. Nos vad. Boune nët.

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    @Tomenable: your map upon Mathieson concerns auDNA.
    I think Sintashta-Arkaim itself is closer yet to Corded; Karnitzkiy or Konitsev (metrics) confirms it as rather "Central-East-European" than "Southern Caucasus" or "BMAC"; what is funny is that for archeology, Grigoryev considers it asstrongly influenced by South-East Caspian culrues, themselves showing tight links with Near-Rast ancient cultures. What put me to (re-)conclude the flows of genes and cultural traits are not always the same. Look at today Europe and Europe ancient "dependances" ("occidental evolved world") spreading its material culture, even without language, and fading out bit after bit with underdevelopped countries migrants. No alarming statement here, it could please to someones and bore others, and if not achieved yet; only running on slowly but surely (until when???); I don't read in the hanes guts. I know I give Goga an occasion to tell me I use comparisons between past and present (LOL) me too, but here I think its' more accurate, who knows?
    To get back to the topic, we know there were exchanges between the Steppes nomads and the BMAC people. Maybe the fact that some descendants of evolved Tripolje descendants passed into western Steppes were surely among a part of the Sintashta people could explain a facilited acculturation by same level cultures? Guessing, no more.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Classic Goga. I do enjoy it. Tonight is lame but you gave me a reason to do something.

    proto-Aryans=Sintashta

    And that's badass, why would you be averse to the first chariot builders? It's so strange. I'm trying to convince an Iranian enthusiast that the indo-Iranians were awesome. Don't get it.
    I'm trying to keep it joyful and fun as possible.

    proto-Aryans = Mitanni (descendants of the Sumerians). Mitanni (Medes) migrated into SouthCentral Asia and found BMAC! East Iranid race from BMAC invaded Indian Peninsula. It's a fact that a race from BMAC invaded India! Has nothing to do Sintashta...


    R1a moved from the Iranian Plateau and migrated into the Steppes. Oldest R1a subclades has been found in West Asia, there is also the most diversity of R1a. In the Steppes it mixed heavily with Finno-Ugrid, Mongoloid and Europoid races. Never forget that the South was always much more populated than North.


    First chariots came from the Mesopotamia. Sumerians chariots were much older than modern Iranid (Aryan = Mitanni & Medes) chariots. Sumerians were (for a huge part) ancestors of the Iranid (Aryan) race.





    http://sumerianshakespeare.com/84201.html

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I'm trying to keep it joyful and fun as possible.

    proto-Aryans = Mitanni (descendants of the Sumerians). Mitanni (Medes) migrated into SouthCentral Asia and found BMAC! East Iranid race from BMAC invaded Indian Peninsula. It's a fact that a race from BMAC invaded India! Has nothing to do Sintashta...


    R1a moved from the Iranian Plateau and migrated into the Steppes. Oldest R1a subclades has been found in West Asia, there is also the most diversity of R1a. In the Steppes it mixed heavily with Finno-Ugrid, Mongoloid and Europoid races. Never forget that the South was always much more populated than North.


    First chariots came from the Mesopotamia. Sumerians chariots were much older than modern Iranid (Aryan = Mitanni & Medes) chariots. Sumerians were (for a huge part) ancestors of the Iranid (Aryan) race.



    http://sumerianshakespeare.com/84201.html
    Is this a joke? I ask because I 'm not sure.
    -From what I red Mitanni would be newcmers in Near-East about the 1600 BC and not Sumerians descendants. THeir age of apparition doesn't correspond to the proto-I-Ean times.
    -I don't see any objection about a Near-East civilisation influences on the Steppes at more than a time.
    -But concerning India as the theories stay between 2 and 5 big moves into from South Central Asia it I wait the winner of the scientists competition to make my mind (I'm an amateur).
    -for Y-R1a the current localization of its greater variance in Iran doesn't prove it has always been so. Surely, if not iranian, it came from some place not too far but... And ancient and high variance haplo DNA in a place doesn't prove the bulk of the newer and less variated SNPs did not form elsewhere; some surveys indicate rather a Central Asia position for the most of Z93. The privders of today India Z93 can come as well from Central Asia as from Iran or elsewhere S-West...


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It's a fact that a race from BMAC invaded India!
    R1a moved from the Iranian Plateau and migrated into the Steppes.
    First chariots came from the Mesopotamia.
    - Problem is when Sumerian domesticated horse and when west Asians had lactose tolerance gene. Yamna culture had both of them around 3,500BC

    - Another problem is :

    Prehistorically, the Sumerians were not aboriginal to Mesopotamia. Their native hearth is unknown. Speaking an agglutinative tongue showing affinities, on one hand, with the Uralo-Altaic languages (Balto-Finnish, Hungarian, Volgaic, Uralien, Samoyuedic, Turkish, Mongolian, and Eskimo) and, on the other hand, with the Dravidian tounges of India, the Pelasgian of pre-Homeric Greece, Georgian of the Caucasus, and Basque of the Pyrenes,they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian (also, Proto-Euphratean), [...].” (Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension, New World Library, 2008, p.122)"
    - However, botai culture
    The world's first broncobusters, it seems, hailed from Central Asia. New research proves that herders from the steppes were the first to tame horses 5,500 years ago. Since the 1990s, horse bones have been unearthed at the site of Botai, a village in what is now northern Kazakhstan that was occupied from 3700 to 3100 B.C. But a new analysis of bones, teeth, and pottery sherds leaves no question that the people of Botai practiced horse husbandry.

    Using a newly refined method of stable isotope analysis, the researchers detected horse milk on pottery sherds from Botai. In the past, it had been difficult to distinguish between horse-meat fats and milk fats on pottery. Horses were hunted by the nomadic tribes of the steppes, so the presence of meat fat would tell the scholars little. On the other hand, milk fat could only come from domesticated horses. "It is inconceivable that anyone would milk a wild mare," says Olsen.
    1. All things happened around 3,500BC

    2. More interesting thing is botai might be connected to Andronovo (Aryan)

    Thus the spreading of the Surtanda culture to the east up to the basin of the Irtysh River seems very probable (Fig. 24.11). We gave the reasons for it earlier. It is interesting that the sites of the Makhandgar and Botai type are dated mainly to the third millennium BP, whereas the sites on the banks of the lake belonging to the Surtanda culture are dated earlier (fifth millennium BP, according to C-14). This dating for the earlier sites is confirmed by the chronology of the lower layer of Berezki settlement (around 7600±200). Thus two periods of development can be distinguished in the Surtanda culture. The first can be called the lake period (late fifth-fourth millennium BP). The second period is the steppe period (third millennium BC, at Botai, Makhandgar). In the second period, at the beginning of an ecological crisis (second millennium bp), the Petrov and Alakul (Andron) cultures of the Bronze Age were formed.
    --> So starting point of yamna and india (or sumer?) might be Botai region considering three of maps also





    1. Botai region

    2. oct.2013: Using HSV-1 genome phylogenetics to track past human migrations.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3797750/

    3. oct.2015: Reconstructing Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations :
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...29421.full.pdf

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    @Johen
    Thanks for post
    the last map seems a bit curious concerning HGs of North and Central Europe - as if they were not from the same stock (at least partly) as their "Europeans"...?

    concerning languages, the fact of sharing agglutinative structures does not prove a tight recent link between concerned languages. I red somewhere legends said Sumerians were foreigners in Mesopotamia, arrived by sea. I know nothing more (It spite me). The tentatives to make of sumerian a proto-proto-I-Ean language had not convinced the mainstream science. I would have been glad to read the sumerian was close to finnic-ugric languages but I did not red it yet. It could have explained a lot of things and resolved some basic questions concerning I-Eans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    when west Asians had lactose tolerance gene. Yamna culture had both of them around 3,500 BC
    Houston, we have a problem - Yamna people did not have lactose tolerance gene, according to Mathieson:

    Lactase Persistence and ancient DNA by Iain Mathieson

    "(...) We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK, or in early Bronze age steppe populations like the Yamnaya. In as-yet unreported data, we find a few copies of the allele in the Srubnaya - a later steppe population (...)"

    So Yamnaya people could not actually drink milk in adulthood. Some of Corded Ware people - on the other hand - could.

    Lactase Persistence was surely present (= green colour) in Battle Axe, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Kyjatice and Srubnaya:

    Northern_LNBA = Battle Axe
    Central_LNBA = Corded Ware
    Hungary_BA = Kyjatice culture



    More on the issue of lactase persistence here:

    Human adaptation and population differentiation : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group

    They suugest that LP probably originated in LBK culture, but selection sweep was only later.

    In other words it was probably present in LBK population but still at low frequency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Johen
    Thanks for post
    the last map seems a bit curious concerning HGs of North and Central Europe - as if they were not from the same stock (at least partly) as their "Europeans"...?

    concerning languages, the fact of sharing agglutinative structures does not prove a tight recent link between concerned languages. I red somewhere legends said Sumerians were foreigners in Mesopotamia, arrived by sea. I know nothing more (It spite me). The tentatives to make of sumerian a proto-proto-I-Ean language had not convinced the mainstream science. I would have been glad to read the sumerian was close to finnic-ugric languages but I did not red it yet. It could have explained a lot of things and resolved some basic questions concerning I-Eans.
    sorry, I have no information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    "(...) We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK, or in early Bronze age steppe populations like the Yamnaya. In as-yet unreported data, we find a few copies of the allele in the Srubnaya - a later steppe population (...)"

    So Yamnaya people could not actually drink milk in adulthood. Some of Corded Ware people - on the other hand - could.

    Lactase Persistence was surely present (= green colour) in Battle Axe, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Kyjatice and Srubnaya:
    True, when did it happen?
    We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans
    was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of
    positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought
    .
    --> I think horse domestication and horse riding was revolution around 3,500bc, like a train in industrial revolution and modern internet to concur a distance between humans

    See two maps:




    If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

    However,
    - both Yamna and sumer had a wheel, and
    they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian
    So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)



    The above map also looks like representing comb ceramic route from Finland to Korea:


    --> They might freely ride on horses thru the route. And EEF also might migrate from Gemany (Harz area) to Korea 7,000 years ago thru this route. And domen people also might migrate from Irend (oldest one : 4,000bc) to Korea(3,000bc), see the dolmen zone in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    - Problem is when Sumerian domesticated horse and when west Asians had lactose tolerance gene. Yamna culture had both of them around 3,500BC

    - Another problem is :


    - However, botai culture


    1. All things happened around 3,500BC

    2. More interesting thing is botai might be connected to Andronovo (Aryan)



    --> So starting point of yamna and india (or sumer?) might be Botai region considering three of maps also





    1. Botai region

    2. oct.2013: Using HSV-1 genome phylogenetics to track past human migrations.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3797750/

    3. oct.2015: Reconstructing Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations :
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...29421.full.pdf
    1. Domestication of horses occured thousands of years before 3500 BC. Even earlier than 7000BC !!! http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678
    2. What has this to do with lactose tolerance gene? PIE migration happened in two stages. Early PIE and late PIE. Early PIE migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon and gave birth to the most IE languages in Europe. While the original PIE that stayed at home gave birth to the Anatolian, proto-Iranian (Aryan) etc. languages. Lactose tolerance gene could be connected only to Yamnaya, after it mixed with Mongoloid/Uralid folks in the Steppes.

    Yamna culture was heavily influenced by the older Maykop 'Kurgan' culture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture


    But Leyla-Tepe culture is MUCH, MUCH older than Maykop and so called 'Botai' culture.

    Leyla-Tepe culture was from 4500 - 4000 B.C.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture



    Aryans that invaded the Indian subcontinent invaded it from BMAC and NOT from Andronovo.


    Andronovo was NOT Aryan, but
    BMAC was Aryan


    Iranians = Aryans ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    True, when did it happen?


    --> I think horse domestication and horse riding was revolution around 3,500bc, like a train in industrial revolution and modern internet to concur a distance between humans


    If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

    However,
    - both Yamna and sumer had a wheel, and


    So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)



    The above map also looks like representing comb ceramic route from Finland to Korea:


    --> They might freely ride on horses thru the route. And EEF also might migrate from Gemany (Harz area) to Korea 7,000 years ago thru this route. And domen people also might migrate from Irend (oldest one : 4,000bc) to Korea(3,000bc), see the dolmen zone in the world.
    Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

    Domestication of horses happened at least 7000BCE. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678


    Sumerian civilization is much older than from 3500 BC. Tell Halaf period started at least 6100 BC.

    Only the Sumerian writing system evolved around 3500. But that doesn't mean that Sumerians are from 3500 BC. The Sumerian civilization PREDATE their writing system by thousands of years.


    Yamnaya evolved from Maykop 'kurgan' culture. Maykop 'kurgan' culture is older than Yamnaya. The Maykop culture gave birth to the Yamnaya culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

    BUT the original / early PIE of the Leyla-Tepe culture predate also the Maykop culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture



    the Sumerian culture:
    Tell Halaf period: 6100 BCE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Halaf
    Hassuna culture: 6000 BCE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassuna_culture
    Ubaid period: 5300 BCE
    Uruk Period: 4100 BCE





    About PIE

    the Leyla-Tepe culture : 4500 - 4350 BCE - early (original) PIE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture
    the Maykop culture : 4000 BCE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture
    the Yamnaya culture : 3,500 BCE - late PIE



    Also, the Neolithic farmer DNA in the Steppes and East Asia is mostly from the source, the origin of those Neolithic farmers and that origin is in West Asia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Dude, what the hell are you talking about?
    i JUST SAID:

    - If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

    Prehistorically, the Sumerians were not aboriginal to Mesopotamia, they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian (also, Proto-Euphratean), [...].” (Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension, New World Library, 2008, p.122)"


    -
    So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)

    NO MORE ASSUMPTION

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    Botai what?????

    Can we consider those primitives as culture?


    High advanced Mesopotamian Tell Halaf & Hassuna predate Botai by thousands of years.

    Even what I do consider early PIE ancestral to Yamnaya, the Leyla-Tepe culture, predate Botai by thousands of years.




    Btw, the Tell Halaf 8000 years old culture is located in the native homeland of my paternal Y-DNA haplogroup R1a*.

    As an Ezdi Kurd my paternal (tribe) roots are in Shingal, Kurdistan.

    I'm sure that my personal hg. R1a* has something to do with Tell Halaf culture.

    "It has been known for some time that the Sinjar valley belonged to the Northern Ubaid culture. In the Sinjar plain, where Tell Hamoukar is located, civilizations are known to have existed many centuries earlier (Hassuna, Halaf, Ubaid). More than 200 sites are known."

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raq/sinjar.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamoukar


    Last edited by Goga; 07-04-16 at 00:33.

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