Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

[Fire Haired14]

There is no correlation between R1b and blond hair.

But those kurgan cultures which were found to be R1a - were also found to be light-pigmented.

Andronovo, Tachtyk, Pazyryk, Tagar & Tocharian = R1a with a lot of blond + light brown + brown hair.

This is evident both from pigmentation extracted from genes, and from hair preserved in mummies:

Proto-Tocharians were R1a1:



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Of course not all of them were blond & brown hair. Red hair & dark hair could also be found.

Blue and green eyes were most common among them:

=========================

About pigmentation derived from genes (in addition to pigmentation preserved in mummies) I wrote here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ded-discussion?p=449880&viewfull=1#post449880

It's crazy how well those mummies are preserved. Those IEs from central and north Asia are pretty much our (dead)half-brothers. About Half our blood comes from the Neolithic-Bronze age Steppe and about 100% of their blood did. Those mummies+Basque or Sardinians=Most Euros.

I was told by a someone who's looking at SNPs associated with traits from the genomes in Haak 2015, and he said the younger samples have higher frequencies of markers associated with light pigmentation than their ancestors. This is consistent with other ancient DNA studies.

A 4,000YBP Pole was said to be "dark complected", and the steppe samples that were even as young as 4,000-4,5000YBP had markers for dark pigmentation. Our steppe ancestors were probably much darker than these mummies. My guess is there was gradually change that occurred throughout Europe 6,000-3,000YBP, that included these mummies' ancestors.

 

[oriental]

I like to mention that the Gedrosian element is associated with Baluchistan, Pakistan, however that is the present-day destination of these people i.e. their descendents. Their ancestors were probably living in the Middle East, say Elam in Persia which was destroyed by Cyrus the Great when he created the Persian Empire and scattered the Elamites. Some went to Europe and some to ancient India. I think the Indus Valley Civilization and Elam were probably one large continuous civilization.

 

[Tomenable]

Another photo of the Ukok Princess (IE Scythian, Pazyryk culture):

Reconstructions:

Her tattoos:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...os-Siberian-princess--little-changed-art.html

http://jittaaa005.deviantart.com/art/Siberian-ice-princess-446313049

http://galleryhip.com/scythian-warrior-tattoo.html

The Siberian Times said: "The tattoos on the left shoulder of the 'princess' show a mythological animal - a deer with a griffon's beak and a Capricorn's antlers. 'The antlers are decorated with the heads of griffons.

'And the same griffon's head is shown on the back of the animal.

The mouth of a spotted panther with a long tail is seen at the legs of a sheep.

'She also has a dear's head on her wrist, with big antlers.

'There is a drawing on the animal's body on a thumb on her left hand.

'On the man found close to the 'princess', the tattoos include the same fantastical creature, this time covering the right side of his body, across his right shoulder and stretching from his chest to his back.

'The patterns mirror the tattoos on a much more elaborately covered male body dug from the ice in 1929 whose highly decorated torso in reconstructed in our drawing here.

'His chest, arms, part of the back and the lower leg are covered with tattoos. There is an argali - a mountain sheep - along with the same dear with griffon's vulture-like beak, with horns and the back of its head which has griffon's head and an onager drawn on it.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...incess--little-changed-art.html#ixzz3S3EcEDS6

=======================================

"The Ukok plateau, Altai, Siberia, where Princess and two warriors were discovered. Their bodies were surrounded by six horses fully bridles, various offering of food and a pouch of cannabis":

Another homeland picture:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-old-tattoos-causing-floods-earthquakes.html

And from wikipedia:

 

[Tomenable]

"Indigenous" inhabitants did not like that the reconstruction is so much European-looking:

http://politicalhotwire.com/current-events/112543-curse-siberian-mummy.html

He was explaining to them that, curse or no curse, the Altai and other Native Siberian people are tired of Slavic archeologists and other scientists messing with their dead ancestors.

However, she is not "their dead ancestor", as genetic research shows (and is indeed closer to Europeans):

http://rt.com/news/181308-siberian-ice-maiden-bury/

Many people in Altay believe that the remains to belong to a legendary ancestor and a powerful princess. (...) Ironically, DNA tests on the Ice Maiden, and other remains of people who belonged to the nomadic Pazyryk culture that inhabited the Ukok Plateau, proved that she cannot be an ancestor of the people living in the Altay Region now. The Pazyryk are genetically closest to Siberian Ket and Selkup peoples, but are further from the Altay people than from, for example, Germans, Basques or Russians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Ice_Maiden

A reconstruction of the Ice Maiden’s face was created using her skull, in conjunction with measurements taken from the skulls, facial features, and skin thickness of present-day Altai inhabitants. The artist who created the reconstruction, Tanya Balueva, was documented as saying that the Ice Maiden “is a clear-cut example of the Caucasian race with no typically Mongolian features.” Rima Eriknova, the director of the Altai Regional Museum, is not in agreement, commenting that, “They made the Ice Maiden completely European.”[6]

DNA testing confirmed that the woman was not related to the native Mongoloids in present-day Altai. Prior to the testing, she had been believed to be their ancestor.

=================================

EDIT after post #105 [this is another woman, but also from Pazyryk culture, and from the same region]:

Reconstruction of another steppe female from roughly the same region. Also European-looking:

http://www.ryot.org/frozen-mummy-tattoos-princess-ukok-siberia-taxidermy-reproduction/919290

https://twitter.com/praeparator

"Bone structure showed she was a skilled rider and bow woman, hence the Greek legends of the Amazones seem to be real. The 'Amazon' was buried together with a man and with horses in a big double grave in a Kurgan":

Though I'm not sure if this reconstruction and that from post #103 are reconstructions of exactly the same woman ???

 

[Tomenable]

Yes - this is another woman.

Ukok "Princess" and this "Amazon" from post #104 are two different women - even though from the same region:

It is also a finding of the Altai region, but the body was NOT naturally mummified (like the "Princess"), only bones were left.

"Princess" was a mummy, while this "Amazon" was only a skeleton.

Also the "Princess" was buried with two men and 6 horses. This "Amazon" was buried with only one man.

 

[Tomenable]

This map seems reliable in the light of these new genetic findings (PIE origin between Baltic Sea, Ural and Pontic-Caspian steppe):

http://steppeasia.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/andronovo3.jpg

 

[LeBrok]

"Indigenous" inhabitants did not like that the reconstruction is so much European-looking:

http://politicalhotwire.com/current-events/112543-curse-siberian-mummy.html



However, she is not "their dead ancestor", as genetic research shows (and is indeed closer to Europeans):

http://rt.com/news/181308-siberian-ice-maiden-bury/



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Ice_Maiden



=================================

EDIT after post #105 [this is another woman, but also from Pazyryk culture, and from the same region]:

Reconstruction of another steppe female from roughly the same region. Also European-looking:

http://www.ryot.org/frozen-mummy-tattoos-princess-ukok-siberia-taxidermy-reproduction/919290

https://twitter.com/praeparator

"Bone structure showed she was a skilled rider and bow woman, hence the Greek legends of the Amazones seem to be real. The 'Amazon' was buried together with a man and with horses in a big double grave in a Kurgan":

Though I'm not sure if this reconstruction and that from post #103 are reconstructions of exactly the same woman ???

She has a very high nose root and bridge. Perhaps this is part of Caucasus admixture? They are known for their noses.

 

[MOESAN]

I like to mention that the Gedrosian element is associated with Baluchistan, Pakistan, however that is the present-day destination of these people i.e. their descendents. Their ancestors were probably living in the Middle East, say Elam in Persia which was destroyed by Cyrus the Great when he created the Persian Empire and scattered the Elamites. Some went to Europe and some to ancient India. I think the Indus Valley Civilization and Elam were probably one large continuous civilization.

I have some hard work to link the northwest Europe 'gedrosia' to Sumer or Harappa, Indus Valley - 'gedrosia' ELEMENTS of the today 'gedrosia' component were present in Siberia and East Eurasia between 40000 and 20000 BC !!! 'gedrosia' is almost absent in Mediterranea and Souteastern Europe today, and even ANE is weak in this last region - the 'gedrosia' in Near Eastern / Iran / Caucasus is recent enough (more than an ethny send it in a tremendous History)
the concerned 'gedrosia' is northern, steppic, not southern, and ANE too...
the sumerian and Harappa cultural elements were exported to southern Steppes across BMAC but they received impulses from more northern culture (maybe proto-Hurrits/Hurrians of S-E Caspian, possible promotors of BMAC -

 

[oriental]

What I meant is that when modern humans exited Africa they probably lived around the Persian Gulf which was just above sea level (and probably where Haplogroup IJ wasn't split up yet). There were Haplogroups F, G, H, I, J and K. Elam's western coastline is the Persian Gulf. Then there is Haplogroup K out of which came Haplogroups L, M, N, O, P, Q and R. Those people around the Persian Gulf then spread East North and West. This what I meant. In the North (Siberia and Central Asia), Haplogroups R and Q dominated and reduced other groups throughout history with invasions. In the west Haplogroup R dominated Europe. So the Gedrosia element is really the Iranian element. Since Haplogroup R also dominates Iran the original inhabitants of the Persian gulf area changed but they survived in Gedrosia (Baluchistan, Pakistan). The Gedrosia element is the original Iranian inhabitants.

Even today's Gedrosia would be quite different as it is controlled by Muslims who separated from India after the Partition in 1947.

 

[Tomenable]

Data for three steppe IE cultures - Andronovo + Tachtyk + Tagar:

1. Hair pigmentation (when known):

blond or light brown - 6 (60%)
brown - 3
dark brown - 1

2. Y-DNA haplogroups (when known):

R1a1a - 9 (90%)
C (not C3) - 1 -------------------> individual with C had dark brown hair

3. mtDNA haplogroups (for everyone):

T3 - 3
H or U - 3
T1 - 2
C - 2
U4 - 2
U5a1 - 1
U2e - 1
H5 - 1
H6 - 1
T2a1b1 - 1
K2b - 1
I4 - 1
G2a - 1
Z1 - 1
HV - 1
F1b - 1
N9a - 1

4. mtDNA of individuals with blond or light brown hair:

T1 - 2
C - 2
N9a - 1
U5a1 - 1

 

[Drax]

Very interesting Tomenable, thank you very much; and the woman is really beautiful;

 

[Fire Haired14]

Data for three steppe IE cultures - Andronovo + Tachtyk + Tagar:

1. Hair pigmentation (when known):

blond or light brown - 6 (60%)
brown - 3
dark brown - 1

2. Y-DNA haplogroups (when known):

R1a1a - 9 (90%)
C (not C3) - 1 -------------------> individual with C had dark brown hair

3. mtDNA haplogroups (for everyone):

T3 - 3
H or U - 3
T1 - 2
C - 2
U4 - 2
U5a1 - 1
U2e - 1
H5 - 1
H6 - 1
T2a1b1 - 1
K2b - 1
I4 - 1
G2a - 1
Z1 - 1
HV - 1
F1b - 1
N9a - 1

4. mtDNA of individuals with blond or light brown hair:

T1 - 2
C - 2
N9a - 1
U5a1 - 1

I don't know how they determined hair color. I read the study and they tested for very few SNPs associated with hair color. But I guess the mummies prove they had a wide-range of hair colors.

 

[holderlin]

It's funny. I was gazing at those mummies in awe like everyone else, silent and noble relics of our ancestors.

But then I read a little more and the region was all about traders. I guess one of the mummies was an ancient hat salesman/maker. They buried him with like 50 different kinds of hats LOL.

Another sort of funny tidbit. The Chinese records of these "red haired and green eyed people who look like monkeys" also said that they like to drink excessively. Indo-Europeans haven't changed in thousands of years.

 

[oriental]

who look like monkeys

It is the deep-set eyes and hairy face that elicited those comments.

They were in Chinese documents expressing their observations. I am sure there are lots of literature from western sources where there are observations of other people that would be awkward for the observed people to read.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/rhesus-monkey/

 

[Greying Wanderer]

It is the deep-set eyes and hairy face that elicited those comments.

They were in Chinese documents expressing their observations. I am sure there are lots of literature from western sources where there are observations of other people that would be awkward for the observed people to read.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/rhesus-monkey/

it's funny - especially the bit about drinking too much

 

[oriental]

drinking too much

Since it was a dry area the Tocharians lived in drinking was a precious activity. However, alcohol was a safe liquid to drink as it would kill any bacteria or neutralize micro-organisms. When one drink alcoholized drink one can be rather addicted.

 

[Fire Haired14]

It's funny. I was gazing at those mummies in awe like everyone else, silent and noble relics of our ancestors.

But then I read a little more and the region was all about traders. I guess one of the mummies was an ancient hat salesman/maker. They buried him with like 50 different kinds of hats LOL.

Another sort of funny tidbit. The Chinese records of these "red haired and green eyed people who look like monkeys" also said that they like to drink excessively. Indo-Europeans haven't changed in thousands of years.

Compared to east Asian people, west Eurasians do kind of look like Monkeys. The few times I've been in a place filled with east Asians, I've noticed they have very different structured skulls. Their heads are much more straight, boxy, and bigger. West Eurasians have very round and curvy heads compared to East Asians, that could appear to be similar to monkeys. To be honest I kind of look like a monkey and people have said this before.

I read a description of Huns(Turks who invaded Europe during Roman times) by a Roman and Goth. The Goth who wrote in Greek said they weren't even human, but were some type of devil spawned in the forest. He put emphasis on their small eyes, dark complexion, short stature, big heads, etc. The Roman writer gave basically the same description, and I think he also said they were evil supernatural beings.

To the Chinese Tocherians and maybe a few other nations(Sycthians, I don't know) were the only humans on earth with European features. To Germans and Romans the Huns were the only humans on earth with east Asian features. Both it appears treated them as very strange, un-human, and exaggerated their distinct features.

 

[holderlin]

Compared to east Asian people, west Eurasians do kind of look like Monkeys. The few times I've been in a place filled with east Asians, I've noticed they have very different structured skulls. Their heads are much more straight, boxy, and bigger. West Eurasians have very round and curvy heads compared to East Asians, that could appear to be similar to monkeys. To be honest I kind of look like a monkey and people have said this before.

I read a description of Huns(Turks who invaded Europe during Roman times) by a Roman and Goth. The Goth who wrote in Greek said they weren't even human, but were some type of devil spawned in the forest. He put emphasis on their small eyes, dark complexion, short stature, big heads, etc. The Roman writer gave basically the same description, and I think he also said they were evil supernatural beings.

To the Chinese Tocherians and maybe a few other nations(Sycthians, I don't know) were the only humans on earth with European features. To Germans and Romans the Huns were the only humans on earth with east Asian features. Both it appears treated them as very strange, un-human, and exaggerated their distinct features.

It is the deep-set eyes and hairy face that elicited those comments.

They were in Chinese documents expressing their observations. I am sure there are lots of literature from western sources where there are observations of other people that would be awkward for the observed people to read.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/rhesus-monkey/

it's funny - especially the bit about drinking too much

Since it was a dry area the Tocharians lived in drinking was a precious activity. However, alcohol was a safe liquid to drink as it would kill any bacteria or neutralize micro-organisms. When one drink alcoholized drink one can be rather addicted.

It's in one of Mallory's books I've been revisiting. The reference states that they were "given to excessive drinking", which to me sounds like good old IE partying. Pretty funny. Romans say the same about the Celts of course too. Indeed it seems like IE people have a special talent for getting wasted, and those assholes had to pass on those genes to me. I mean, I don't go to meetings or anything, but in a social setting I'm definitely "given to excessive drinking".

 

[Fire Haired14]

It's in one of Mallory's books I've been revisiting. The reference states that they were "given to excessive drinking", which to me sounds like good old IE partying. Pretty funny. Romans say the same about the Celts of course too. Indeed it seems like IE people have a special talent for getting wasted, and those assholes had to pass on those genes to me. I mean, I don't go to meetings or anything, but in a social setting I'm definitely "given to excessive drinking".

"Beaker people" drank alcohol(and other liquids) out of containers this big. It was so important to them they were buried with them.

You should bring one to your next social gathering

 

[holderlin]

"Beaker people" drank alcohol(and other liquids) out of containers this big. It was so important to them they were buried with them.

You should bring one to your next social gathering

Perfect size.

Beaker People is a weird thing. It think the consensus is an elite class, shamanistic perhaps, associated with what I guess would be a get everyone drunk cult. I dunno. But it could also just be a really high quality, nice pot that everyone wanted at the time essentially making it appear among prestige items. I can just imagine "ohhh sweet you got a Adzigringin bowl, dude they're the shit. My mom's had hers in the family for 100 years. It's been dropped countless times and been under the hottest fires."