Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast
Results 151 to 175 of 179

Thread: Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

  1. #151
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    i JUST SAID:

    - If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

    -
    So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)
    NO MORE ASSUMPTION
    ANE auDNA on the Iranian Plateau and in North Caucasus is much older than 3500BC. ANE auDNA existed on the Iranian Plateau and in the North Caucasus thousands of years BEFORE the Yamnaya culture ever existed. It predates late PIE in the Yamnaya and has nothing to do with PIE...


    However there're connections between the Leyla-Tepe culture, the Mesoptamian cultures, Makop culture and the Yamnaya Horzion culture.

  2. #152
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    417
    Points
    5,554
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,554, Level: 22
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 496
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Botai what?????

    Can we consider those primitives as culture?


    High advanced Mesopotamian Tell Halaf & Hassuna predate Botai by thousands of years.

    Even what I do consider early PIE ancestral to Yamnaya, the Leyla-Tepe culture, predate Botai by thousands of years.




    Btw, the Tell Halaf 9000 years old culture is located in the native homeland of my paternal Y-DNA haplogroup R1a*.

    As an Ezdi Kurd my paternal (tribe) roots are in Shingal, Kurdistan.

    I'm sure that my personal hg. R1a* has something to do with Tell Halaf culture.

    "It has been known for some time that the Sinjar valley belonged to the Northern Ubaid culture. In the Sinjar plain, where Tell Hamoukar is located, civilizations are known to have existed many centuries earlier (Hassuna, Halaf, Ubaid). More than 200 sites are known."

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raq/sinjar.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamoukar


    are you a teen?

  3. #153
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    are you a teen?
    No, I'm 30+


    About the Leyla-Tepe culture:

    linked to the Mesopotamian cultures (5500BCE):
    "The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period monuments, in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region. The settlement is of a typical Western-Asian variety, with the dwellings packed closely together and made of mud bricks with smoke outlets."


    linked to Maykop (proto-Yamnaya) culture (4000BCE). Maykop kurgan culture is ancestral to the Yamnaya Horzion culture:
    "It has been suggested that the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture. An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC."

    http://www.theinfolist.com/php/Summa...maykop_culture

  4. #154
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Always remember and NEVER forget that Maykop culture was founded by the Leyla-Tepe culture. Horses and some of the earliest wagon wheels has been found in the kurgans of the Maykop culture:


    " HORSE BREEDING


    The Maykop people lived sedentary lives, and horses formed a very low percentage of their livestock, which mostly consisted of pigs and cattle. Archaeologists have discovered a unique form of bronze cheek-pieces, which consists of a bronze rod with a twisted loop in the middle and a thread through her nodes that connects with bridle, halter strap and headband. Notches and bumps on the edges of the cheek-pieces were, apparently, to fix nose and under-lip belts.


    Some of the earliest wagon wheels in the world are found in Maykop culture area. The two solid wooden wheels from the kurgan of Starokorsunskaya in the Kuban region have been dated to the second half of the fourth millennium. "



    IRANIAN ORIGINS

    A more recent suggestion, by Mariya Ivanova, is the Maikop origins were on the Iranian Plateau:
    "Graves and settlements of the 5th millennium BC in North Caucasus attest to a material culture that was related to contemporaneous archaeological complexes in the northern and western Black Sea region. Yet it was replaced, suddenly as it seems, around the middle of the 4th millennium BC by a “high culture” whose origin is still quite unclear. This archaeological culture named after the great Maikop kurgan showed innovations in all areas which have no local archetypes and which cannot be assigned to the tradition of the Balkan-Anatolian Copper Age. The favoured theory of Russian researchers is a migration from the south originating in the Syro-Anatolian area, which is often mentioned in connection with the socalled “Uruk expansion”. However, serious doubts have arisen about a connection between Maikop and the Syro-Anatolian region. THE FOREIGN OBJECTS IN THE NORTH CAUCASUS REVEAL NO CONNECTION TO THE UPPER REACHES OF THE EUPHRATES AND TIGRIS OR TO THE FLOODPLAINS OF MESOPOTAMIA, BUT RATHER SEEM TO HAVE TIES TO THE IRANIAN PLATEAU AND TO SOUTH CENTRAL ASIA. Recent excavations in the Southwest Caspian Sea region are enabling a new perspective about the interactions between the “Orient” and Continental Europe. On the one hand, it is becoming gradually apparent that a gigantic area of interaction evolved already in the early 4th millennium BC which extended far beyond Mesopotamia; on the other hand, these findings relativise the traditional importance given to Mesopotamia, because innovations originating in Iran and Central Asia obviously spread throughout the Syro-Anatolian region independently thereof"



    http://www.theinfolist.com/php/Summa...maykop_culture

  5. #155
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    I'm just getting tired & sick of the inferiority complex of some folks. The original PIE language was not NATIVE to Europe. The native European folks spoke a different non-IE language and got Indo-Europized. Period!

    The science (DNA (migation of R1b from West Asia + West Asian auDNA), archeology (architecture, pottery, artifacts, horse cheek-pieces; Maykop kurgans vs. Yamnaya kurgans), linguistics (ergativity in proto-Iranic (Kurdish, old Persian etc.) and proto-Indic (+current) etc.)) has destroyed racism that is rooted in the inferiority complex, insecurity, hate and fear, FEAR!


    Tell Halaf: 6100 BCE ((Anunnaki, alien/extraterrestrial origin??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki) (I believe also the Iranian Plateau origin.)
    Hassuna: 6000 BCE
    Ubaid: 5500 BCE (Leyla-Tepe/Iranian origin - http://www.theinfolist.com/php/Summa...maykop_culture)
    Leyla-Tepe: 4500 - 4350 BCE
    Uruk: 4100 BCE (Leyla-Tepe/Iranian origin)
    Maykop: 4000 BCE (Leyla-Tepe/Iranian origin)
    Yamnaya: 3500 BCE (Maykop origin)


    Time to move on...!

  6. #156
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    417
    Points
    5,554
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,554, Level: 22
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 496
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    1. Domestication of horses occured thousands of years before 3500 BC. Even earlier than 7000BC !!! http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678
    just counter argue against what I argue now. Not the other factors like your ancestor's great history, which will be challenged after I research. ok?

    My Argument 1: I cannot find any source to accept as a fact, the article(2011) regarding horse domestication 7000bc.

    However, every sources I researched were the same as follows:

    However, an increasing amount of evidence supports the hypothesis that horses were domesticated in the Eurasian Steppesapproximately 3500 BCE;[1][2][3] recent discoveries in the context of the Botai culture suggest that Botai settlements in the Akmola Province ofKazakhstan are the location of the earliest domestication of the horse


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse

  7. #157
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    just counter argue against what I argue now. Not the other factors like your ancestor's great history, which will be challenged after I research. ok?

    My Argument 1: I cannot find any source to accept as a fact, the article regarding horse domestication 7000bc.

    However, every sources I researched were the same as follows:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
    Which sources? You're looking for the wrong sources.

    Well that wiki article is plain wrong and deliberately ignoring the findings of horse domestication in Arabia 9000 years ago. Or even ignoring Maykop findings. Since when is wiki the most evidence-based source of knowledge? Everybody can write in that article. And it's wrong.


    But hey, using the same wiki source it is also written on the Maykop page:


    " Horse breeding

    The Maykop people lived sedentary lives, and horses formed a very low percentage of their livestock, which mostly consisted of pigs and cattle. Archaeologists have discovered a unique form of bronze cheek-pieces, which consists of a bronze rod with a twisted loop in the middle and a thread through her nodes that connects with bridle, halter strap and headband. Notches and bumps on the edges of the cheek-pieces were, apparently, to fix nose and under-lip belts.
    [5]

    Radiocarbon dates for various monuments of the Maykop culture are from 3950 - 3650 - 3610 - 2980 calBC "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

    It is originally from this book: Мунчаев Р. М. Бронзовые псалии майкопской культуры и проблема возникновения коневодства на Кавказе,«Кавказ и Восточная Европа в древности», М.,1973.



    Maykop is older than Botai. And there was already horse-breeding in the Maykop culture before Botai. Maykop domesticated already horses before Botai.

    Maykop = 4000 BCE (radiocarbon dates one of the extant monuments to 3950 BCE), same age as Uruk in Mesopotamia
    Botai horses = 3500 BCE




    But FIRST domestication of horses is even much older than Maykop. The oldest known to us yet, is 9000 years ago.


    This discovery shows that horses were domesticated in the Arabian Peninsula for the first time more than 9,000 years ago,” said al-Ghabban. “Previous studies estimated the domestication of horses in Central Asia dating back 5,000 years.




    http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/d...domestication/

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sa...77N5TL20110824



    The al-Maqar civilisation is a very advanced civilization of the Neolithic period. This site shows us clearly, the roots of the domestication of horses 9,000 years ago,” he added. "




    http://ancient-cultures.info/attachm...W_al_Magar.pdf

  8. #158
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    417
    Points
    5,554
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,554, Level: 22
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 496
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Which sources? You're looking for the wrong sources.
    hey, I found good one.

    Prehistoric genomes reveal the genetic foundation and cost of horse domestication(0ct/2014)
    The domestication of the horse revolutionized warfare, trade, and the exchange of people and ideas. This at least 5,500-y-long process, which ultimately transformed wild horses into the hundreds of breeds living today, is difficult to reconstruct from archeological data and modern genetics alone.

    The domestication of the horse ∼5.5 kya and the emergence of mounted riding, chariotry, and cavalry dramatically transformed human civilization. However, the genetics underlying horse domestication are difficult to reconstruct, given the near extinction of wild horses. We therefore sequenced two ancient horse genomes from Taymyr, Russia (at 7.4- and 24.3-fold coverage), both predating the earliest archeological evidence of domestication.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/E5661.abstract

  9. #159
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    hey, I found good one.

    Prehistoric genomes reveal the genetic foundation and cost of horse domestication(0ct/2014)


    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/E5661.abstract
    Bro, is this a joke? They say nothing about the Botai. I read the article and it's stated nowhere that horse domestication started in Kazakhstan (among proto-Turkic Botai people).

    Maykop is older than Botai. It is possible that Maykop culture introduced horse domestication to proto-Turkic Botai people.

    It's quite possible that R1b folks from Maykop who migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon introduced horse domestication in the Steppes very early in history. Or horse domestication could be introduced from the Iranian Plateau in the Steppes earlier via the eastern side of the Caspian Sea.

    Also, they only tested the Russian horses, while we have proof that horses also existed in SouthWest Asia many thousands of years ago. And they even conclude that Russian 'wild' horses are not even directly related to the 'domesticated' horses. That means that the first horses that were domesticated were NOT the wild 'Russian' one, but distantly related to them. Modern domesticated horses are NOT native to Russia. So it quit possible that the domesticated horses in the Steppes came from the Iranian Plateau or much further away.


    And look what they wrote, that "the earliest potential evidence for horse domestication could be ca. 7.5 kya." (page 1-2). That's thousands of years before Botai!


    " Przewalski’s horse, the last truly wild horse population remaining today, is not the direct ancestor of domesticated horses (7, 8). Instead, it likely represents a sister population that separated from the ancestral population of domesticated horses some 38–72 kya (9). This date significantly predates not only the widely accepted date for the beginning of horse domestication, ca. 5.5 kya (2), but also the earliest potential evidence for horse domestication, ca. 7.5 kya (10). In addition, the current Przewalski’s horse population descends from a captive stock consisting of only 13 founder individuals (7). This severe demographic bottleneck, together with inbreeding resulting from unequal contributions from different captive lineages, likely caused a substantial loss of the diversity once present in Przewalski’s horses. As a result, no modern horse population can fully represent the genetic diversity ancestral to the modern, domesticated gene pool (11–13). "

  10. #160
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Some people just don't use logic.

    R Haplogroups are ultimately connected to ANE like ancestry.

    EHG has ~40% ANE like ancestry.
    CHG has ~35% ANE like ancestry.

    Think about this for a minute.

  11. #161
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    ANE is a grouping of genes present at some times and in some places, and surely shared long ago by a lot of tribes, between Siberia and South central Asia and Eastern Europe. Concerning the I-Ean concretion, surely recent enough, we cannot rely only on this element; and are all these populations rich today in ANE sharing the same elements of primitive ANE? I don't know. Maybe I'm not logical?

  12. #162
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    ANE is a grouping of genes present at some times and in some places, and surely shared long ago by a lot of tribes, between Siberia and South central Asia and Eastern Europe. Concerning the I-Ean concretion, surely recent enough, we cannot rely only on this element; and are all these populations rich today in ANE sharing the same elements of primitive ANE? I don't know. Maybe I'm not logical?
    Davidski argues that the "ANE" like ancestry in CHG is not just shared ancestry but real ANE admixture. We know that WHG is connected to Haplogroup I predominantly.

    So if the Samara EHG did not get their R* Haplogroups from their WHG side than they must have got it from their ANE ancestry, supportive for this hypothesis is the fact that we have found R* Haplogroup in a ANE individual from Siberia 20000 years ago.

    The fact that there is more ANE in some South_Central Asian populations than Indo European ancestry itself only proves that pre Indo Europeans there must have been a very ANE like paleolithic popultion in South_Central Asia and likely on the Iranian Plateau prior to Indo Europeans. That brings me to the conclusion that there should also be R Haplogroups which predate the Indo European expansion.

    Another thing that it proves to me is, that if the ANE in CHG is real admixture rather than shared ancestry, than we will most likely find R Haplogroups in some CHG samples. How else could the ANE have ended up in the CHG population? So if they claim the CHG population did not have any R Haplogroups among them than those guys are simply contradicting themselves. Either the ANE in CHG is real, than it must have come via ANE migration. Or are we going to argue that wild Herders from the Caucasus kidnapped ANE wives now? This whole Wive Kidnapping exchanging nonsense is getting ridiculous.

    But if they claim the CHG were entirely J Haplogroup and did not have any Rs among them, than ANE in CHG can't be real admixture but is only shared ancestry, because Haplogroup J is the brotherclade of I (UHG-WHG) and only afterwards with K.

    I tend to the first option. Simply out of the logic that populations very high in CHG have very basal and diverse kinds clades of R Haplogroups.

    As I said in the past in my very first posts and it seems my theory has been confirmed with all this.


    In the Near East we are dealing with two or maybe even three ancient groups. One is EF (Anatolian_Levant farmers). The other are Caucaus-Iranian Plateau herders, who were a mix of something similar to EF and an ANE like group and became "CHG".

    EF on itself is a group that appeared after two more ancient populations (Basal Eurasian and Proto UHG_WHG) merged.

    A third group might be a Arabian type farmer population around NorthEast Africa or Arabia that appeared during late Neolithic when EF groups absorbed some [10-15%) Sub Saharan DNA.
    Last edited by Alan; 10-04-16 at 01:29.

  13. #163
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    417
    Points
    5,554
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,554, Level: 22
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 496
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    --> I think horse domestication and horse riding was revolution around 3,500bc, like a train in industrial revolution and modern internet to concur a distance between humans
    The domestication of the horse revolutionized warfare, trade, and the exchange of people and ideas. This at least 5,500-y-long process, which ultimately transformed wild horses into the hundreds of breeds living today, is difficult to reconstruct from archeological data and modern genetics alone.
    The domestication of the horse ∼5.5 kya and the emergence of mounted riding, chariotry, and cavalry dramatically transformed human civilization. However, the genetics underlying horse domestication are difficult to reconstruct, given the near extinction of wild horses. We therefore sequenced two ancient horse genomes from Taymyr, Russia (at 7.4- and 24.3-fold coverage), both predating the earliest archeological evidence of domestication.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/E5661.abstract

    ---> Now, when to ride on horse?

    Evidence for Riding in the Fourth Millennium BC
    The Botai culture in northern Kazakhstan is named after the site of Botai, where 99% of 300,000 recovered animal bones were from horses. Botai was a culture of foragers that rode horses to hunt horses, a peculiar adaptation found only here and only between about 3600-3000 BCE
    http://users.hartwick.edu/anthonyd/h...orsepower.html
    Last edited by johen; 09-04-16 at 04:07.

  14. #164
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    @Alan
    Logic post, at first sight; what I lack to be sure? more Y haplo's of CHG people, and admixture runs of them, some with 'gedrosia' some with ANE. Admixtures with the same internal logic and same period, not the curious proxis provided by some forumers or bloggers. Maybe have you data I lack?

  15. #165
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    wang chuan chao

    Wang Chuan Chao: 2018

    Recent ancient DNA studies have enabled the resolution of several long-standing questions regarding cultural and population transformations in prehistory. One of these is the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition in Europe, which saw a change from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to a sedentary, food-producing subsistence strategy. Genome-wide data from pre-farming and farming communities have identified distinct ancestral populations that largely reflect subsistence patterns in addition to geography25. One important feature is a cline of European hunter-gatherer (HG) ancestry that runs roughly from West to East (hence WHG and EHG; blue component in Fig. 2A, 2C), which differs greatly from the ancestry of Early European farmers that in turn is closely related to that of northwest Anatolian farmers, and more remotely also to pre-farming individuals from the Levant. The Near East and Anatolia have long been seen as the regions from which European farming and animal husbandry emerged. Surprisingly, these regions harboured three divergent populations, with Anatolian and Levantine ancestry in the western part and a group with a distinct ancestry in the eastern part first described in Upper Pleistocene individuals from Georgia (Caucasus hunter-gatherers; CHG) and then in Mesolithic and Neolithic individuals from Iran. The following two millennia, spanning from the Neolithic to Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods in each region, witnessed migration and admixture between these ancestral groups, leading to a pattern of genetic homogenization and reduced genetic distances between these Neolithic source populations. In parallel, Eneolithic individuals from the Samara region (5200-4000 BCE) also exhibit population mixture, specifically EHG- and CHG/Iranian ancestry, a combination that forms the so-called ‘steppe-ancestry’. This ancestry eventually spread further west, where it contributed substantially to the ancestry of present- day Europeans, and east to the Altai region as well as to South Asia.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf
    Last edited by xiaodragon; 06-06-19 at 00:19. Reason: line numbers included

  16. #166
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    wang chuan chao--Yamnaya

    still quoting from Wang Chuan chao's 2018 article: the Yamnaya :
    Using qpAdm with Globular Amphora as a proximate surrogate population (assuming that a related group was the source of the Anatolian farmer-related ancestry), we estimated the contribution of Anatolian farmer-related ancestry into Yamnaya and other steppe groups. We find that Yamnaya individuals from the Volga region (Yamnaya Samara) have 13.2±2.7% and Yamnaya individuals in Hungary 17.1±4.1% Anatolian farmer-related ancestry (Fig.4; Supplementary Table 18)– statistically indistinguishable proportions. Replacing Globular Amphora by Iberia Chalcolithic, for instance, does not alter the results profoundly (Supplementary Table 19). This suggests that the source population was a mixture of Anatolian farmer-related ancestry and a minimum of 20% WHG ancestry, a profile that is shared by many Middle/Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic individuals from Europe of the 3rd millennium BCE analyzed thus far.
    Last edited by xiaodragon; 06-06-19 at 01:05. Reason: sentence are not completed

  17. #167
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    From Wang chuanchao 2018 article :

    We were surprised to discover that Steppe Maykop individuals from the eastern desert steppes harboured a distinctive ancestry component that relates them to Upper Palaeolithic Siberian individuals (AG3, MA1) and Native Americans. This is exemplified by the more commonly East Asian features such as the derived EDAR allele, which has also been observed in EHG from Karelia and Scandinavian hunter- gatherers (SHG). The additional affinity to East Asians suggests that this ancestry 640 does not derive directly from Ancestral North Eurasians but from a yet-to-be- identified ancestral population in north-central Eurasia with a wide distribution between the Caucasus, the Ural Mountains and the Pacific coast, of which we have discovered the so far southwestern-most and also youngest (e.g. the Lola culture individual) genetic representative.

  18. #168
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    We're stuck with the most pathetic researchers, what a shame. How many more years will we have to wait for something they can test and publish in the space of months?

  19. #169
    Baron Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    340
    Points
    7,507
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,507, Level: 25
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    We're stuck with the most pathetic researchers, what a shame. How many more years will we have to wait for something they can test and publish in the space of months?
    Ancient genomes belong to all humankind. They should be made public for all in the interest of human origins as soon as the results are verified. People can write, peer review, politics, in their own spheres of influence/interest.

    Be wary of those who graduate from the university of perversity & diversity by destroying and
    demonizing the past, underestimating the present, and glorifying the future.

  20. #170
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ANE auDNA on the Iranian Plateau and in North Caucasus is much older than 3500BC. ANE auDNA existed on the Iranian Plateau and in the North Caucasus thousands of years BEFORE the Yamnaya culture ever existed. It predates late PIE in the Yamnaya and has nothing to do with PIE...

    However there're connections between the Leyla-Tepe culture, the Mesoptamian cultures, Makop culture and the Yamnaya Horzion culture.

    Interestingly, ancient DNA evidence suggests that haplogroup R1b – the current dominant lineage in western Europe – did not reach high frequencies until after the European Neolithic period as given in Lacan
    et al26, 27 and Pinhasi et al.28
    In sum, our results support the hypothesis of a Southeast Asian/Oceanian center for the diversification of Oceanian K-haplogroup lineages and underscore the potential importance of Southeast Asia as a source of genetic variation for Eurasian populations. We propose that the patterns of Y-chromosome variation in the K haplogroup reflect a process of population fragmentation, likely associated with the early expansion of modern human populations into island Southeast Asia, and possibly also with rapidly changing sea levels,29 followed by a subsequent dispersal from the same area. While limited in their inferential power, our results warrant the exploration of a demographic model that includes a population expansion from island Southeast Asia into mainland Asia.

  21. #171
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    Because the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup R is characterized by several consecutive basal splitting events leading to tip branches that are currently observed only outside Africa, it is extremely unlikely that haplogroup R diversified in Africa. Similarly, the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup K-M526 shows consecutive branching events (M526, P331 and P295), which appear to have rapidly diversified. With the exception of P-P27, all of the descendant lineages are located today in Southeast Asia and Oceania: K-M526*, K-P402, K-P261 and NO are the lineages most closely related to haplogroup K-P331, K-P397 is the sister lineage of P-P295 and the P-P295* lineages are the closest relatives of haplogroup P-P27 (Figure 1b). This pattern leads us to hypothesize a southeastern Asian origin for P-P295 and a later expansion of the ancestor of subhaplogroups R and Q into mainland Asia.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4326703/Improved phylogenetic resolution and rapid diversification of Y-chromosome haplogroup K-M526 in Southeast Asia



  22. #172
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    Between Lake Baikal and the Baltic Sea:
    genomic history of the gateway to Europe.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29297395

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND:

    The history of human populations occupying the plains and mountain ridges separating Europe from Asia has been eventful, as these natural obstacles were crossed westward by multiple waves of Turkic and Uralic-speaking migrants as well as eastward by Europeans. Unfortunately, the material records of history of this region are not dense enough to reconstruct details of population history. These considerations stimulate growing interest to obtain a genetic picture of the demographic history of migrations and admixture in Northern Eurasia.
    RESULTS:

    We genotyped and analyzed 1076 individuals from 30 populations with geographical coverage spanning from Baltic Sea to Baikal Lake. Our dense sampling allowed us to describe in detail the population structure, provide insight into genomic history of numerous European and Asian populations, and significantly increase quantity of genetic data available for modern populations in region of North Eurasia. Our study doubles the amount of genome-wide profiles available for this region. We detected unusually high amount of shared identical-by-descent (IBD) genomic segments between several Siberian populations, such as Khanty and Ket, providing evidence of genetic relatedness across vast geographic distances and between speakers of different language families. Additionally, we observed excessive IBD sharing between Khanty and Bashkir, a group of Turkic speakers from Southern Urals region. While adding some weight to the "Finno-Ugric" origin of Bashkir, our studies highlighted that the Bashkir genepool lacks the main "core", being a multi-layered amalgamation of Turkic, Ugric, Finnish and Indo-European contributions, which points at intricacy of genetic interface between Turkic and Uralic populations. Comparison of the genetic structure of Siberian ethnicities and the geography of the region they inhabit point at existence of the "Great Siberian Vortex" directing genetic exchanges in populations across the Siberian part of Asia. Slavic speakers of Eastern Europe are, in general, very similar in their genetic composition. Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians have almost identical proportions of Caucasus and Northern European components and have virtually no Asian influence. We capitalized on wide geographic span of our sampling to address intriguing question about the place of origin of Russian Starovers, an enigmatic Eastern Orthodox Old Believers religious group relocated to Siberia in seventeenth century. A comparative reAdmix analysis, complemented by IBD sharing, placed their roots in the region of the Northern European Plain, occupied by North Russians and Finno-Ugric Komi and Karelian people. Russians from Novosibirsk and Russian Starover exhibit ancestral proportions close to that of European Eastern Slavs, however, they also include between 5 to 10 % of Central Siberian ancestry, not present at this level in their European counterparts.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Our project has patched the hole in the genetic map of Eurasia: we demonstrated complexity of genetic structure of Northern Eurasians, existence of East-West and North-South genetic gradients, and assessed different inputs of ancient populations into modern populations.

  23. #173
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    According to Underhill (2014) hg. R1a is from Kurdistan!


    " Origin of hg R1a

    To infer the geographic origin of hg R1a-M420, we identified populations harboring at least one of the two most basal haplogroups and possessing high haplogroup diversity. Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in ourdata set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2* (xM417
    /Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalenceof basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a. "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html
    The book of :山海经(tentatively translated into Classics of Mountains and Seas " has documented the settlements all the way from China ,from the south route ,into Iran , and Anatolia . It is the 4th line of mountains that make up all the landmarks over this route . It is an ancient document, the oldest geographic and population record in ancient times.

  24. #174
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California




    The Mal'ta–Buret' culture is an archaeological culture of the Upper Paleolithic (c. 24,000 to 15,000 BP) on the upper Angara River in the area west of Lake Baikal in the Irkutsk Oblast, Siberia, Russian Federation. The type sites are named for the villages of Mal'ta (Мальта́), Usolsky District and Buret' (Буреть), Bokhansky District (both in Irkutsk Oblast).A boy whose remains were found near Mal'ta is usually known by the abbreviation MA-1 (or MA1). Discovered in the 1920s, the remains have been dated to 24,000 BP. According to research published since 2013, MA-1 belonged to a population related to the genetic ancestors of Siberians, American Indians, and Bronze Age Yamnaya people of the Eurasian steppe.[1][2] In particular, modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, Nganasans and Yukaghirs have been found to harbour a lot of ancestry related to MA-1.[3]

    The location :


    52° 54′ 0″ N, 103° 30′ 0″ E, is well into East Siberia, and somehow , in a recent paper (


    Fu Qiaomei as first author, ), this sample is listed as European Ice age sample . I wonder why so far east a sample would be considered to represent European ancestry ? How the location of the sample is to be characterized as Europe , but no Eurasia , at least , not to say East Asia ? The demarcation of Europe and Asia on the northern part of Eurasia is supposedly the Ural mountain , which stands at E 60. The Malta 1 is discovered all the way to the E 103, far well into the East Siberia and into East Asia . Is the location of the DNA sample follows such a dividing line ? '




  25. #175
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    Haploid lineages https://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-malta-adna-findings.html


    The Mal'ta boy, MA-1, carried distinct yDNA R* and mtDNA U* lineages. While both are clearly related to those dominant in Europe and parts of Asia (West, South) nowadays, they are also distinct from any specific dominant lineage today.


    R* (yDNA) is neither R1 nor R2 but another distinct branch of R. This kind of R(xR1, R2) is most rare today and found mostly in and around NW South Asia. Following Wikipedia, this "other R" is found in:

    • 10.3% among the Burusho
    • 6.8% among the Kalash
    • 3.4% among the Gujarati

    However I must say that I recall from old discussions that some R(xR1) is also found among Mongols and some North American Natives. I would have to find the relevant studies though (maybe in an update).


    U* (mtDNA) is also quite rare today but has been found in Swabian Magdalenian hunter-gatherers, as well as in some Neolithic samples, although it may well be a totally different kind of U* (I could not discern the specific markers in the paper nor the supplementary materials and it must be reminded that the asterisk only means "others").






Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •