Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 140

Thread: Tracing back Phoenician & Arabic DNA in modern Spaniards using Haak 2015's admixtures

  1. #26
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713
    Points
    4,883
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,883, Level: 20
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I haven't had the time to go over this study, so a couple of pertinent questions and observations regarding the subject of the thread for those who have already examined the paper:

    1- Where did the samples labelled "Spanish" come from? The admixture table separates it from both Basques and North-Spanish samples, so I have to assume these came from other areas of Spain, but exactly where?

    2- The OP says "pink" represents "East African" but from what I can see it looks like Amerindian (it is highest among American populations), so I am assuming that the one that looks more like "flesh" color is the one that is meant for "East Africa"

    3- The same three colors that the OP is trying to use to estimate "Arab", "Jewish" and/or "Phoenician" contributions to southern Spain show up at varying frequencies in other places in Europe (Italy, Greece, Balkans) Does that mean we can go around speculating about the genetic contributions of Etruscan/Roman-era Middle Eastern immigrants and slaves as well as later Muslim-era military invaders in these other areas of Europe based on the results of the same study, or will this only be arbitrarily applied to the southern Spanish?

  2. #27
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713
    Points
    4,883
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,883, Level: 20
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Perhaps like the Magyars were to most Hungarians? A ruling minority that contributed linguistically and culturally but not genetically?
    Yes, correct, or the Ottoman Turks in the Balkans.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I forgot to mention that the Jews could also have brought the same admixture and haplogroups as the Phoenicians and the Arabs.
    E-M34 (most common subclade of E1b1b for Jews) is extremely low in Spain.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    John Doe's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-06-14
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    600
    Points
    5,816
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,816, Level: 22
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 234
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-PF1975
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a9

    Ethnic group
    Ashkenazi Jewish
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    E-M34 (most common subclade of E1b1b for Jews) is extremely low in Spain.
    While I'm E1b1b1 and therefore most likely E-M34 (not confirmed as of yet though) I'm pretty sure most Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jews belong to J2. How common is that in Spain? (Obviously if it's common it may have just been brought in the Bronze age).

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Perhaps like the Magyars were to most Hungarians? A ruling minority that contributed linguistically and culturally but not genetically?
    That's correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    While I'm E1b1b1 and therefore most likely E-M34 (not confirmed as of yet though) I'm pretty sure most Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jews belong to J2. How common is that in Spain? (Obviously if it's common it may have just been brought in the Bronze age).
    J2 is about 8-10% in Spain, which is pretty low for a South-European/Mediterranean country.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Since the Caucaso-Gedrosian was probably brought to Spain mostly by Phoenicians (being nearly absent from Algerian, Mozabite and BedouinB), it can be inferred that the Phoenicians contributed approximately 12% of the DNA in an average South Spanish genome (4% for each of the three admixtures). The other 6% of the Bedouin-like admixture would be medieval Arabic in origin. Using the proportions of modern Saudi Arabs as a proxy, we can estimate that the Bedouin-like admixture made up 75% of medieval Arabs' genomes. That would give a total of about 8% of Arabic DNA in a South Spanish genome today.
    .
    The Caucasus-Gedrosia component that you talk about , has nothing to do with Phoenicians or Arabs, but with Yamnaya. If you look at the dark-blue component, it peaks in Yamanya, but they also have around 25% of this Caucasus-Gedrosia component. This component is in fact also found all around Europe (in fact Spain has lower levels than Hungary, France, or Croatia).

    In fact when you look at K=19, the ratio Dark-Blue/Turquoise is about 50%/50% for Yamnayans, and this same ratio is mantained in Spain and Basque country, and in most of Europe. So, yes Basques do have it also, it's just that at K=20 it disappears in them. And the violet "Bedouin component" is also present in other S.European countries, such Greeks, Tuscans, Sardinians, etc.

    You are just making up some weird theories.
    Last edited by Wilhelm; 21-02-15 at 19:36.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    John Doe's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-06-14
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    600
    Points
    5,816
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,816, Level: 22
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 234
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-PF1975
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a9

    Ethnic group
    Ashkenazi Jewish
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post


    J2 is about 8-10% in Spain, which is pretty low for a South-European/Mediterranean country.
    I suppose it is, compared to where it is predominant (in Europe), Greece and southern Italy.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective



    • a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
    • b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
    • c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia

    Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



    Highlights

    •The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
    •The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
    •Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
    •Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
    •Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



    Abstract

    At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective




    • a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
    • b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
    • c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia

    Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



    Highlights

    •The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
    •The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
    •Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
    •Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
    •Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



    Abstract

    At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.
    The presence of E-M81 is certainly pre-islamic. Because the frequencies do not correlate with the islamic historical events taking place in Iberia. The morisco theory in Galicia is ridiculous, and makes no historical sense, not only because morsicos were natives converted to Islam living in Christian territory, but because the presence of moriscos in Galicia was very small (compared to other places like Aragón or Valencia, were they made a large percent of the population) , so that cannot account for the 5-6% presence of E-M81 in Galicia. There is also high percentage in Cantabria and other non-southern areas. Also, there fact you find some E-M81 in other parts of Europe, so everything points to a pre-islamic incoming from Northern-Africa. In France, there are areas with 4-5% of E-M81 also (Auvergne, Ile-de-France).

  10. #35
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713
    Points
    4,883
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,883, Level: 20
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective




    • a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
    • b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
    • c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia

    Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



    Highlights

    •The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
    •The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
    •Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
    •Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
    •Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



    Abstract

    At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.
    Key part here being "Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia." Again, nothing new. Papers based on haplogroups are speculative by force. We are dealing with genetic markers which are thousands of years old and predate historical events. There is no way of knowing for sure when they were introduced in any given area.

  11. #36
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Strange that you should say that, since the more typically Near Eastern features, like aquiline facial profiles, are actually more common among the strongly Dinaricized Italians and southern Balkans than the predominantly West-Mediterranean and very little Dinaric-influenced southern Spaniards/Portuguese. Get better acquainted with anthropology.

    Regarding mosques: you can find old mosques in Greece and all over the Balkans:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...que_.281268.29


    Your point is? You can also find ancient temples in Italy devoted to Syrian and Egyptian gods:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Isis_(Pompeii)

    Again, your point is?

    Adopting the religion of other peoples does not make any inferences about their actual ethnic origins. Most Muslims in Iberia were in fact just native converts to that religion.
    I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

    And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


    Haplogroup-E-M123.jpg

    E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

    mtDNA-U6-map.jpg

    And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

    The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

    And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


    Haplogroup-E-M123.jpg

    E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

    mtDNA-U6-map.jpg

    And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

    The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.
    You have no idea what your talking about. The mtDNA U6 is a specific north-african subclade, nothing to do with Jews.

  13. #38
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    You have no idea what your talking about. The mtDNA U6 is a specific north-african subclade, nothing to do with Jews.
    No idea what I'm talking about? I just told you that all people I met with U6 have Sephardic Jewish heritage.

    Either way; it still proves that I am correct that U6 isn't European in origin. You have still admitted that it is North African in origin; which proves my point that Iberians have a Near Eastern/North African influence..

    Here is a link:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ection=results

    "Haplogroup U6

    Haplogroup U6 can be considered to be the mt-DNA equivalent of Y-DNA haplogroup E1B1B in that it is of North African origins and its distribution matches the Afro Asiatic linguistic expansion. The U6 research project has discovered what it believes to be a Sephardic Cluster in haplogroup U6A7A1B characterized by mutation 150T. U6 can be found in small percentages among Sephardic Jews and even Ashkenazic Jews. Similar to haplogroup E1B1B, U6's presence among Jews may date back to ancient times when the founding members of the Israelite tribes performed conversions on local Canaanite women, to allow them marry tribal members prior to their descent to Egypt. Another possibility is that this lineage joined the ancient Israelites along with the "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt with the Israelites, as described in the Bible. It is also possible that Berber conversions to Judaism during the Muslim occupation of Spain introduced this lineage to the Sephardic gene pool. This haplogroup has been found in the Sephardic Jewish communities of the former Ottoman Empire. A member of this project with a tradition of Jewish ancestry on his/her maternal line, and is a member of this haplogroup, can be considered to be likely of Jewish descent."

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Key part here being "Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia." Again, nothing new. Papers based on haplogroups are speculative by force. We are dealing with genetic markers which are thousands of years old and predate historical events. There is no way of knowing for sure when they were introduced in any given area.
    correct.....the arabian to iberia was pre arabs

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

    And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


    Haplogroup-E-M123.jpg

    E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

    mtDNA-U6-map.jpg

    And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

    The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.
    i do not think berbers where semetic

    the moors seems a mix of Northwest indigenous africans and a mix of saharan "west african " coastal people. it seems the arabic invasion of iberia after the fall of the Roman empire and the end of barbaric invasions of africa by the vandals , might have lighten the pigmentation of the indigenous area in question

  16. #41
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    I really meant Near Eastern/North African; as a whole. Not Semitic. ​That is only part of what I am saying. Correction.

  17. #42
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713
    Points
    4,883
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,883, Level: 20
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    correct.....the arabian to iberia was pre arabs
    And the "Berber" itself might as well be too.

  18. #43
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713
    Points
    4,883
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,883, Level: 20
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

    And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


    Haplogroup-E-M123.jpg

    E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

    mtDNA-U6-map.jpg

    And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

    The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.
    Autosomal studies on the genetics of Jews do not show any particular relationship between Spaniards and any Jews, including Sephardics:

    http://www.nature.com/news/2010/1006....2010.277.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/sc...inds.html?_r=0

    Basques are not, and never were, "Celts". Basques would be more like the pre-Celtic Iberians or the Aquitanians of France. The Celtic-influenced peoples of Spain would be from these regions (light blue):

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ia_200_BCE.PNG

    So mostly Galicians, Asturians, Cantabrians and Castilian-Leonese.

    The reason why Brits & Irish have some anthropological and genetic connections to Spaniards and French is probably more due to the fact that the British Isles also had a pre-Celtic population, who were similar to the Iberians and Aquitanians.

    mtDNA U6 has very disputed origins (either Middle Eastern or North African), and in either case it's way older than any "Jews". We are talking about a prehistoric marker here, nothing remotely "recent". Plus it has been found even as far north as the British Isles.

    About the "Afro-Asiatic" language thing: I still fail to see your point, as there was no "Afro-Asiatic" language spoken by any native inhabitants of Iberia. The pre-Celtic, pre-Roman populations spoke languages like Iberian and Basque, which have no relationship to either Indo-European or Semitic languages. Modern Iberians speak Indo-European languages derived from Latin due to the Roman empire imposing its language on the native populations, and the only pre-Indo-European language that has survived anywhere in Europe is Basque.

  19. #44
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Autosomal studies on the genetics of Jews do not show any particular relationship between Spaniards and any Jews, including Sephardics:

    http://www.nature.com/news/2010/1006....2010.277.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/sc...inds.html?_r=0

    Basques are not, and never were, "Celts". Basques would be more like the pre-Celtic Iberians or the Aquitanians of France. The Celtic-influenced peoples of Spain would be from these regions (light blue)
    Nope. All people in Europe are mixed with pre-Indo-European and indigenous peoples; even Germanic people. There are traces of non Indo-European words in Germanic dialects. The Basques are merely Celtiberians that mixed with indigenous women; more so than other Spaniards. Spaniards are mixed with Visigoth Germanic, Roman and even something like Alan. (Ossetian) etc. Meaning that they take in heritage from all kinds of peoples. (heterogeneous) If you study the Basque people; you will find that they may have recently; what is called a "Population bottleneck". Which means the Basques descended from a small, relatively isolated population.

    Even though Basques are mixed with Celtiberian and indigenous peoples; they are also homogeneous, meaning they share relatives a few generations back. While the rest of the Iberians tend to be heterogeneous. (Descending from all kinds of peoples.) It may seem contradictory; but it isn't.

    Anthropology is a science that requires deep-thinking and logic that contains extreme concentration; like Math.

    In fact; I can prove this with the Celtiberian Y-DNA that is most prominent in Basque people; but also has a small residual in Southwest France; where the Aquitanians were believed to have thrived:

    Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.jpg

  20. #45
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713
    Points
    4,883
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,883, Level: 20
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Nope. All people in Europe are mixed with pre-Indo-European and indigenous peoples; even Germanic people. There are traces of non Indo-European words in Germanic dialects. The Basques are merely Celtiberians that mixed with indigenous women; more so than other Spaniards. Spaniards are mixed with Visigoth Germanic, Roman and even something like Alan. (Ossetian) etc. Meaning that they take in heritage from all kinds of peoples. (heterogeneous) If you study the Basque people; you will find that they may have recently; what is called a "Population bottleneck". Which means the Basques descended from a small, relatively isolated population.

    Even though Basques are mixed with Celtiberian and indigenous peoples; they are also homogeneous, meaning they share relatives a few generations back. While the rest of the Iberians tend to be heterogeneous. (Descending from all kinds of peoples.) It may seem contradictory; but it isn't.

    Anthropology is a science that requires deep-thinking and logic that contains extreme concentration; like Math.

    In fact; I can prove this with the Celtiberian Y-DNA that is most prominent in Basque people; but also has a small residual in Southwest France; where the Aquitanians were believed to have thrived:

    Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.jpg
    I have never seen any historians, linguists or ethnologists suggest that Basques had any particularly strong Celtic influence. Basques are widely regarded as the only mostly pre-Indo-European people left in Europe (in fact they speak the only surviving pre-Indo-European language, none other in Europe survived Romanization), all others, as you say, have different degrees of Indo-European influence.

    That Y-DNA marker seems more common in the non-Celtic areas of both France and Iberia, so it is very likely not "Celtiberian". Eupedia itself calls it the "Gascon & Iberian" branch, in fact.

  21. #46
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    I have never seen any historians, linguists or ethnologists suggest that Basques had any particularly strong Celtic influence. Basques are widely regarded as the only mostly pre-Indo-European people left in Europe (in fact they speak the only surviving pre-Indo-European language, none other in Europe survived Romanization), all others, as you say, have different degrees of Indo-European influence.
    That is because you are misinformed...the R1b is Celtiberian in origin and arrived during the Bronze Age. With the invasion of Hallstatt Celts into Iberia.

    See Maciamo's theory, How did the Basques become R1b?: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ues-become-R1b

    You can also notice a small I2 residual around the Basque country; which suggests a Neolithic population once spoke Basque / Aquitanian, but the majority of the original I2 men were slaughtered by R1b invaders:

    Haplogroup_I2a.jpg

  22. #47
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    hypothesis and scientific facts are not the same thing.




    This thread is not about Maltese Language (which has been discussed before) but you can always read more about it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language

    If you find it interesting you can always start a new thread or visit the older ones

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ltese+language

    page 3 post 15
    hypothesis and scientific facts are not the same thing. I know they aren't. Who said they were? You did. In fact, your country is the only country in Europe that has a non-European language; meaning it did not develop in Europe. Afro-Asiatic. You refer to an article from Wikipedia that has no scientific background and is only a hypothesis. You are basically calling me out for the same acts that you are: Contradicting yourself and being a hypocrite. This is called Baseless accusation and self-projection.

    Don't think I am setting you up, attacking or arguing against you Maleth. I am just stating a fact.

  23. #48
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I forgot to mention that the Jews could also have brought the same admixture and haplogroups as the Phoenicians and the Arabs.
    Well, essentially; they were all Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples with origins in the Levant and Near East. So am I not completely wrong here? If you are talking about the same percentages, then yes I may be correct.

    Basques look nothing like Andalusians in terms of phenotype; and Basques are more Northern European while Andalusians would fit Mediterranean. And it is in my personal opinion; from experience; that some Andalusian Spaniards look very similar to Near Easterners like the Lebanese and Syrians; and may have picked up some of those genetics.

    I was a bit taken aback by some of the people posting here, arguing against and claiming that they were in complete discordance in their analogies with mine. I was expecting the opposite. Lots of Southern Iberians have non-European ancestry; it's no secret to me.

  24. #49
    Banned Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    447
    Level
    4
    Points: 447, Level: 4
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The presence of E-M81 is certainly pre-islamic. Because the frequencies do not correlate with the islamic historical events taking place in Iberia. The morisco theory in Galicia is ridiculous, and makes no historical sense, not only because morsicos were natives converted to Islam living in Christian territory, but because the presence of moriscos in Galicia was very small (compared to other places like Aragón or Valencia, were they made a large percent of the population) , so that cannot account for the 5-6% presence of E-M81 in Galicia. There is also high percentage in Cantabria and other non-southern areas. Also, there fact you find some E-M81 in other parts of Europe, so everything points to a pre-islamic incoming from Northern-Africa. In France, there are areas with 4-5% of E-M81 also (Auvergne, Ile-de-France).
    This subclade could have come from a migration of ancient peoples originating from North Africa who arrived in the peninsula before the Mesolithic; centuries longer than the Phoenicians and even the Moors.

    I don't believe E-M81 is European; and I cannot find any other explanation. Unless it was an ancient European Y-DNA such as C6 or pre-I that was replaced by Neolithic or Bronze Age Y-DNA. But someone would have to prove that.

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    This subclade could have come from a migration of ancient peoples originating from North Africa who arrived in the peninsula before the Mesolithic; centuries longer than the Phoenicians and even the Moors.

    I don't believe E-M81 is European; and I cannot find any other explanation. Unless it was an ancient European Y-DNA such as C6 or pre-I that was replaced by Neolithic or Bronze Age Y-DNA. But someone would have to prove that.
    you can clearly see who are the phoenicians by seeing this link .............look at the lebanese

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...h/FigureS1.jpg

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •