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Thread: Tracing back Phoenician & Arabic DNA in modern Spaniards using Haak 2015's admixtures

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    you can clearly see who are the phoenicians by seeing this link .............look at the lebanese

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...h/FigureS1.jpg
    Seems the Lebanese are very high in abundance of J2; which interestingly seems to peak in Southern Iberia. And also seems to be extremely high along the coastlines of North Africa:

    Haplogroup-J2.jpg

    Wonder if these subclade(s) of J2 are Phoenician in origin. The Phoenicians are believed to be relative to the modern Lebanese; and possibly the Syrians.

    Haplogroup J1 also seems to have a similar distribution:

    Haplogroup-J1.jpg

    It seems to me like some of the people here are in-denial of Spain and Portugal's obvious Near Eastern heritage. Interestingly; the distribution of Y-DNA J1 seems kind of similar to that of mtdna U6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    hypothesis and scientific facts are not the same thing. I know they aren't. Who said they were? You did. In fact,
    Facts? :)... if you call Cavalli-Sforza's scientific work as I quoted you a hypothesis(! what next?) and its going with a mainstream definition of European based on a hypothesis that might not even be true, then I am not sure if anyone can take anything you say seriously and worth of any debate. No offense please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Facts? :)... if you call Cavalli-Sforza's scientific work as I quoted you a hypothesis(! what next?) and its going with a mainstream definition of European based on a hypothesis that might not even be true, then I am not sure if anyone can take anything you say seriously and worth of any debate. No offense please.
    If he is the source of the DNA acquisition project HGDP then I can agree that he is inaccurate. lmao.

    Don't get too cocky just yet.

    I've noticed that HGDP have the least accurate and most erroneous DNA sampling; along with FTDNA geneticist Doron Behar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Seems the Lebanese are very high in abundance of J2; which interestingly seems to peak in Southern Iberia. And also seems to be extremely high along the coastlines of North Africa:

    Haplogroup-J2.jpg

    Wonder if these subclade(s) of J2 are Phoenician in origin. The Phoenicians are believed to be relative to the modern Lebanese; and possibly the Syrians.
    J2 has been in the area much prior to when Phoenicia (Who gave Europe its name) or classical Greece were created. Yes there are high concentrations in the regions (Asian Med / East and West Med and beyond and lesser in North African Med) but labeling J2 Phoenician is not correct (since many other geographical regions have it) as much as labeling R1b is Basque (Since many other geographical regions have it). Testing further downstream can give better routes and migration and possibilities of arrival in a particular region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    J2 has been in the area much prior to when Phoenicia (Who gave Europe its name) or classical Greece were created. Yes there are high concentrations in the regions (Asian Med / East and West Med and beyond and lesser in North African Med) but labeling J2 Phoenician is not correct (since many other geographical regions have it) as much as labeling R1b is Basque (Since many other geographical regions have it). Testing further downstream can give better routes and migration and possibilities of arrival in a particular region.
    Can you give me a link with evidence to this claim? It sounds uninformed...I never labeled J2 as Phoenician. As some subclades can also exist in Balkanic and Caucasian people. But I would not be surprised if the J2 subclade(s) that are there; have a Phoenician origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Can you give me a link with evidence to this claim? It sounds uninformed...I never labeled J2 as Phoenician. As some subclades can also exist in Balkanic and Caucasian people. But I would not be surprised if the J2 subclade(s) that are there; have a Phoenician origin.
    I will not be either, and of course it is even documented that like Greeks, Phoenicians also settled in some areas away from their original homelands namely Tyre and Sidon, even though they are much better known to trade rather then colonise. Cartage is maybe the best documented Phoenician settlement to the point that unlike their forefathers they became more warlike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal and posed one of the biggest threats to the Roman expansion. But look at J2 in that area. Its hardly any genetic evidence of any Phoenician settlement if one has to use the J2 ruler as a measuring stick.

    You can visit and read what other posters had to say on this subject and maybe revive some of them if you find it interesting. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forums/232-J2 Enjoy

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    That is because you are misinformed...the R1b is Celtiberian in origin and arrived during the Bronze Age. With the invasion of Hallstatt Celts into Iberia.

    See Maciamo's theory, How did the Basques become R1b?: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ues-become-R1b

    You can also notice a small I2 residual around the Basque country; which suggests a Neolithic population once spoke Basque / Aquitanian, but the majority of the original I2 men were slaughtered by R1b invaders:

    Attachment 7093
    It's all very well to have theories, but I prefer facts when I can get them. And we do not yet have one single example of Iberian BB Y DNA. We do have three BB Y DNA samples from Germany that are all R1b and one is specifically P312, which is the immediate precursor to DF27, the most common form of R1b among modern Iberians. So it's beginning to look as if Iberian BB folk could have been at least partly R1b.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Seems the Lebanese are very high in abundance of J2; which interestingly seems to peak in Southern Iberia. And also seems to be extremely high along the coastlines of North Africa:

    Haplogroup-J2.jpg

    Wonder if these subclade(s) of J2 are Phoenician in origin. The Phoenicians are believed to be relative to the modern Lebanese; and possibly the Syrians.

    Haplogroup J1 also seems to have a similar distribution:

    Haplogroup-J1.jpg

    It seems to me like some of the people here are in-denial of Spain and Portugal's obvious Near Eastern heritage. Interestingly; the distribution of Y-DNA J1 seems kind of similar to that of mtdna U6.
    As you can see from those "maps", these markers are found all over southern Europe, many times in fact at higher levels than in southern Spain. Should we attribute it all to "Phoenicians", "Jews" and other Middle Easterners in those places as well, or do we arbitrarily only reserve this "privilege" to southern Spaniards? You do realize how unrealistic and contrary to actual historical evidence that would be, do you? Ancient empires like the Greek and Roman ones were in contact with more people from those places than "Al-Andalus" was during the Middle Ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    As you can see from those "maps", these markers are found all over southern Europe, many times in fact at higher levels than in southern Spain. Should we attribute it all to "Phoenicians", "Jews" and other Middle Easterners in those places as well, or do we arbitrarily only reserve this "privilege" to southern Spaniards? You do realize how unrealistic and contrary to actual historical evidence that would be, do you? Ancient empires like the Greek and Roman ones were in contact with more people from those places than "Al-Andalus" was during the Middle Ages.
    It seems to me that phoenicians had airplanes, and they flew directly from the Levant to Spain, without leaving any trace in the rest of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    It seems to me that phoenicians had airplanes, and they flew directly from the Levant to Spain, without leaving any trace in the rest of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Obviously the people who brought J2a to Iberia was the same people that brought it in the rest of Southern-Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Obviously the people who brought J2a to Iberia was the same people that brought it in the rest of Southern-Europe.
    Not necessarily. J2a has different sources in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Indo-Europeans did bring Caucasus_Gedrosia with them, but it got diluted on the way, and by the time R1b-P312 people reached Iberia not much of it was left. That explains why the Basques and Catalans have none of it despite having over 80% of R1b. .
    Catalans you don't know because they are not a sample in the Haak et al. study, and Basques do have it, look at K=19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Not necessarily. J2a has different sources in Europe.
    Well, if you want to be more specific, how about J2a-M67 ? It's also found in Italy, Greece, etc.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    How many times have you been in Spain ?
    I am Spanish and does not differentiate between Catalan and Andalusian ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I fervently and with great interest went to look up what 100% European mean and I stumbled onto this:-

    ......both Africans and Asians contributed to the settlement of Europe, which began about 40,000 years ago. It seems very reasonable to assume that both continents nearest to Europe contributed to its settlement, even if perhaps at different times and maybe repeatedly. It is reassuring that the analysis of other markers also consistently gives the same results in this case. Moreover, a specific evolutionary model tested, i.e., that Europe is formed by contributions from Asia and Africa, fits the distance matrix perfectly (6). In this simplified model, the migrations postulated to have populated Europe are estimated to have occurred at an early date (30,000 years ago), but it is impossible to distinguish, on the basis of these data, this model from that of several migrations at different times.....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

    this is ridiculous I think: Europe is made of "Africans" for the most, but specific Africans passed throught N-E Africa and having given birth ot future Asians and Europeans (very roughly said) - the assumed direct passage between N-Africa and Europe in ancient times can concern only a few people and relatively recently - I could discuss all that (I and others too, here) more deeply but I find it's a lost time -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    "Maps" don't tell the whole story. There is evidence of Phoenicians on the coasts of Etruria as well:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post434169

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    this is ridiculous I think: Europe is made of "Africans" for the most, but specific Africans passed throught N-E Africa and having given birth ot future Asians and Europeans (very roughly said)
    I agree with your assertion, however I would not call it ridiculous as it holds truth as you also state in your post. Its just the way its worded as you say a direct genetic impact from Africa would have been very minimal (I presume they are referring to E-M81 via Gibraltar which probably is much more ancient then recently, albeit a direct Africa (north) impact). The vast majority 99% (?) of 'European' gene pool has arrived via West Asia. At least that is my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Well, if you want to be more specific, how about J2a-M67 ? It's also found in Italy, Greece, etc.
    Lets consider some simple logic:

    *)J2 has been around for 20,000 years, so there was ample time for this haplogroup to spread around the shores of the Mediterranean from its birth place probably Western Asia. If humans could do it in 4000 years from South Asia to Oceana (Australia) I cannot see why this would not be possible.

    *) Phoenician era 3500 years ago and Classical Greek era was around 2500 years ago, so compared to the birth of J2 both eras are pretty recent.

    This means that it was very possible that J2 had actually interacted in these particular regions for a good number of years before they acquired their geographical names we know of today (thank you to the Phoenician alphabet, later influenced greatly the Greeks who left a great deal of documentation we refer to today on many accounts. But there was still a life before that, but no documentations so we need to rely on artifacts and other remains for indications and obviously Dna can help and needs to be interpreted within the historical and prehistorical context without anyone jumping to conclusions).

    In the meantime its extremely possible that this 20,000 year old haplogroup also travelled to other regions (as the Australasia aboriginal example) to other areas beyond. So that is a very probable one way of how J2 arrived by a gradual expansion prior to the ancient Greek and Phoenicians.

    Of course like everybody else I am also inclined to believe that some contributions through 'colonisation'. Now, how, why and what colonisation means visa vi genetic impact is another story as i believe there are different types of colonistion and not always meaning great sudden migrations although we know it happened in certain instances but they variey as in:-

    *)a group of people ruling an already existing population,

    *)to the founding of a total new town from the arriving migrants.

    I think this is not absolutely clear when we talk about colonisation, especially were no documentation is available which is a very long period of time indeed.

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    Spanish North are Spanish Basques. It's even evident in the admixture analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Well, if you want to be more specific, how about J2a-M67 ? It's also found in Italy, Greece, etc.
    Why does it seem like you are in denial of Spain's alleged Near Eastern/Levantine admixture? Not all peoples are mixed; obviously. I do not mean to say all Andalusians have this admixture; just the percentage of this admixture is extremely common in the South especially among Andalusians. And in another thread that Sile posted; one Catalonian man had haplogroup Y-DNA R2. How did it get there? The only explanation is that it was brought there by non-Europeans. Because R2 is not European in origin; and is most common around the Indian Subcontinent as well as the Middle East.


    There are also small samples of Y-DNA H in Andalusians which suggests that some men in Andalusia may have had a male Roma ancestor.


    I would say; in all likelihood, since you're Catalan and from the North of Iberia...The chances of you having a Phoenician/Moorish/Jewish/Roma/whatever ancestor; would be very low. You seem to be very insecure of Spaniards having non-European mixture though, for some odd reason. But you are Y-DNA R1b and mtdna H1; so the chances of you as a Catalan having non-European admixture would be very low. (In contrast to someone who lives in the region of Andalusia)

    I am not saying that it is true that they are mixed with Arabic people; but it is still a mystery to me how haplogroups such as J1, J2, Q1b and even R2 or H arrived on the Iberian peninsula. They obviously did not come from Celts or Romans. So who brought them there? Even if there is some mixture; it does not mean all Andalusians share this admixture, and many of them may be as non-mixed as Northern Iberians.

    But, I have observed Andalusians and Portuguese people and I can say they do not resemble the Basque people (or other Northern Iberians) at all. And many of them do appear to have non-European features. Their hair color and skin color is often darker than other Europeans; and they look like they picked up Near Eastern genetics. A lot of Andalusians I've noticed; look like Europeans mixed with Lebanese or Syrians. (not in a literal sense; just an analogy.) Most of them have dark black hair, the majority of it is straight while there are a few with curly hair. Sometimes there is Blondism but it is rare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post

    But you are Y-DNA R1b and mtdna H1; so the chances of you as a Catalan having non-European admixture would be very low. (In contrast to someone who lives in the region of Andalusia)
    Relax R1b probable origins are West asian, so would that make anyone R1b less European. And why would you consdier anyone J2 non european? Should everyone have brown or blond hair to be European?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Relax R1b probable origins are West asian, so would that make anyone R1b less European. And why would you consdier anyone J2 non european? Should everyone have brown or blond hair to be European?
    This is not what I'm talking about; you misunderstand once again. I know that there are subclades of J2 that are European. And I know that R1b did not originate in Europe; but it is a European haplogroup, at least now.

    The frequency of J1 and J2 arise from the South; suggesting they may have come from Northern Africa. It would not surprise me if the subclades had a Near Eastern origin. In South Portugal J1 is extremely dominant and seems to diminish in frequency in Northern Iberia; which may suggest an Arabic entry from the South. It could not have come from Greeks or Romans.

    There are Caucasians and Europeans who have J1 subclades; but they mostly descend from Caucasians who assimilated into Europe. Which may explain the high frequency of J1 in Hungary; brought by the Caucasian Avars. Around what is now Hungary you will notice on this map that Caucasian Avars from the Caucasus migrated into modern day Hungary.



    The Avars are extremely dominant in Y-DNA J1.

    And it explains why there is a high abundance of J1 in Hungary today:

    Haplogroup-J1.jpg

    Most non-Caucasians that carry subclades J1 have a Near Eastern/Arabic origin; though. You will also notice a high abundance of J1 in North Africa; as well as Southern Iberia, most notably Portugal. Which suggests that there may have been North Africans that blended into the population. However, it seems almost totally absent in Catalonia and near the Basque country; interestingly.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Why does it seem like you are in denial of Spain's alleged Near Eastern/Levantine admixture? Not all peoples are mixed; obviously. I do not mean to say all Andalusians have this admixture; just the percentage of this admixture is extremely common in the South especially among Andalusians. And in another thread that Sile posted; one Catalonian man had haplogroup Y-DNA R2. How did it get there? The only explanation is that it was brought there by non-Europeans. Because R2 is not European in origin; and is most common around the Indian Subcontinent as well as the Middle East.


    There are also small samples of Y-DNA H in Andalusians which suggests that some men in Andalusia may have had a male Roma ancestor.


    I would say; in all likelihood, since you're Catalan and from the North of Iberia...The chances of you having a Phoenician/Moorish/Jewish/Roma/whatever ancestor; would be very low. You seem to be very insecure of Spaniards having non-European mixture though, for some odd reason. But you are Y-DNA R1b and mtdna H1; so the chances of you as a Catalan having non-European admixture would be very low. (In contrast to someone who lives in the region of Andalusia)

    I am not saying that it is true that they are mixed with Arabic people; but it is still a mystery to me how haplogroups such as J1, J2, Q1b and even R2 or H arrived on the Iberian peninsula. They obviously did not come from Celts or Romans. So who brought them there? Even if there is some mixture; it does not mean all Andalusians share this admixture, and many of them may be as non-mixed as Northern Iberians.

    But, I have observed Andalusians and Portuguese people and I can say they do not resemble the Basque people (or other Northern Iberians) at all. And many of them do appear to have non-European features. Their hair color and skin color is often darker than other Europeans; and they look like they picked up Near Eastern genetics. A lot of Andalusians I've noticed; look like Europeans mixed with Lebanese or Syrians. (not in a literal sense; just an analogy.) Most of them have dark black hair, the majority of it is straight while there are a few with curly hair. Sometimes there is Blondism but it is rare.

    It doesn't appear that you have read the genetics papers of the last five or so years, or if you have read them perhaps it is that you haven't fully absorbed the implications of these papers for an understanding of the peopling of Europe. ALL Europeans have Near Eastern/Levantine admixture; the only question is how much and when did it arrive. West Eurasia forms a genetic continuum. You are aware, I take it, that many of the earliest inhabitants of Europe came via the Near East and the Caucasus?

    Even should we move forward a bit in history, let's look at the Neolithic advance. Are you aware that agriculture was "invented" in the Near East? Do you know that most Europeans can be modeled as a mixture of three ancient populations, one of which is correlated with the Near East? Have you ever heard the term EEF? If you've sent a sample in to FTDNA or 23andme and then run your data through a calculator at gedmatch, you can get an EEF number for yourself. If you're part French and part English that number should be around 50%, and probably 80% of that is "Near Eastern". It's more complicated than this, but to put it simply it stems from people from the border of the coastal Levant near northern Syria and the southeastern portion of Turkey.

    Let's now look at your assertions about yDna. First of all, you cannot draw any grand conclusions from such poorly defined yDna lineage information. You need a lot more resolution than that. I don't have the time to address all the subclades found in the study and their probable sources in terms of migrations into Europe . Suffice it to say that "H" yDna has been found in very ancient contexts in Europe. Only a very specific yDna "H" has any connection to the Roma. E-V13 has been found in a Neolithic European context, and the sub-clade of that which is most frequent in Europe today probably expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. E-M81 is definitely a Berber lineage, but while some of it probably arrived in Spain and Sicily during the Moorish domination, in the case of Spain some of it may be Neolithic in origin. In terms of J2a you need very specific subclade information. J2a has been found in a Bronze Age Indo-European warrior in central Europe. We don't know yet J2a's precise migration path into Europe or its timing, but the vast majority of it is either Neolithic or Bronze Age in origin. For J1 there are also different subclades. Some came during the Neolithic, others came later. R2 is not European? Is the C of Mesolithic hunter gatherers European? How about the N found in Uralic speaking peoples? Let's look at the "Q" lineages. There is Q in the eastern European hunter gatherers. Or are those acceptably European because their spread is more "northern" in terms of spread?

    As for R1b, the ancient R1b Yamnaya samples from whom (or from closely related peoples) the R1b in Europe stems were half "Armenian like". Last time I checked an atlas, Armenia was in the Near East. R1a is associated with Corded Ware, which can be modeled as 75% Yamnaya, and then there was admixture with Middle Neolithic people. For descendents of R1b and R1a Indo-Europeans in Europe to somehow see "Near Eastern" ancestry as inferior is bizarre to me to say the least.

    There is no simple correlation, in my opinion, between yDna lineages and "ethnic" composition even on a macro level, much less on an individual level where generations of mixing may have diluted all traces of the origin and autosomal make up of an intrusive yDna lineage. All one needs to do to understand these concepts is to look at all those R1b people in Chad.

    To turn to the Phoenicians specifically. I know that Zilloua has convinced many people that the Phoenicians were all J2a. I highly doubt that by their time any Levant population was exclusively one yDna lineage. However, let's assume that they were indeed all J2a. In order to tease out their specific contribution to any
    particular European "ethnicity" you would need a sample of "Phoencian" yDna with subclade resolution. Even then you need an understanding that yDna contribution is going to be different than autosomal impact, particularly in the case of traders. Who knows, like traveling salesmen today, perhaps part of the appeal of long distance trade was specifically to get away from the "wife". Personally, I don't find it probable they had a major impact anywhere, given the largely mercantile nature of their migrations. Were it otherwise, where is their specific J2a contribution to the area around Carthage, their most important stronghold?

    Not that I have anything against the Phoenicians, mind. I have a lot more against the Indo-Europeans, believe it or not. My personal sympathies are always with the civilized core, not the Barbarians at the Gate.* The Phoenicians, at least, were descendents of the Canaanites, good followers of the Great Mother. They were also great merchants, intrepid sea farers, and inventors of advanced navigation and the alphabet to boot. What's not to like? Is it that they were "Near Eastern"? It's not like this ancestry came from Mars. It's been in Europe since at least the Neolithic, and, who knows, maybe some of it was already in Greece in the Mesolithic. The Phoenicians were probably just a blend of EEF and ANE, two of the three components that shaped Europeans.

    After years of listening to exponents of this point of view, it seems to me that the determining factor for some people as to whether a certain autosomal component is or is not "European" is when it arrived. For some, if it arrived after the Mesolithic it's not "European". Of course, for people like, say, the northwestern Europeans, that would mean a good chunk of their ancestry is not "European". Or, some move the goal post forward, and would say after the Bronze Age it's not European. Of course, if you examine that, it would include an awful lot of J2a that probably arrived in Europe in the Bronze Age. So perhaps they mean specifically if it arrived in the early Middle Ages with the Moorish invasions it's not "European"?That would let the Phoenician ancestry squeeze in just as the door closes, I suppose. Or is it just that anything that came via a more northern corridor, like the Siberian ancestry in the northeast, is still "European" but via a southern corridor it's not?

    I really don't understand the workings of this kind of mindset, and never have, so basically I just disregard this kind of world view as an abberation which has nothing to do with logic.

    Bottom line, as I and others have said, "European" is a geographic, political, cultural, and to some extent (in terms of history)religious construct. The genetics form a cline. By that measure the Spanish are indeed European, all of them, with many contributions to European civilization, far more than areas which you undoubtedly think are more European because they are in northern Europe rather than in southern Europe.


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    Afro-Asiatic speaking Levant peoples are not Western-world people; and therefore are not Europeans. They lack genetics that Europeans have.

    It is the equivalent to saying a Tunisian or Algerian is a European; despite his darker skin and black hair. He is obviously of a different race. Just because people from the Levant have fair-skin does not make them of the same race as Europeans.

    People don't get it and never will.

    Since when are Arabs considered European? That's a new revelation to me...They are a subrace of Caucasians that developed independently; while Europeans developed in a different way.

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