Tracing back Phoenician & Arabic DNA in modern Spaniards using Haak 2015's admixtures

[Drac II]

I dare people to look up "Andalusians" or "Andalusian people" on google images; and tell me if they have any resemblance to Europeans or even Basques, for that matter.

Photos of Andalusians:

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I see no resemblance to Basques whatsoever. There is obvious admixture to me. Slightly darker skin color, dark hair, slightly-wider nose, slanted eyebrows. They look more like the Lebanese people to me! And even Lebanese people can appear more European!

Disclaimer: I am really just joking most the time. I do not know if they are actually mixed. Don't take me seriously. From my eyes personally; they do look like they have some sort of Near Eastern/Levant admixture though.

You must really think that people are really naive and can't tell what you are doing. Googling those words also brings up people like these, which you conveniently left out since they don't fit your agenda:


jerez1.jpg:

11418676406_e0fe40efcf.jpg001.jpg



ecos_g.jpg

It's called "cherry-picking" and it can be done to any country or region.

Note: you also seem ignorant of the fact that Spain has a Gypsy population of over 1 million, the large majority of them in Andalusia. Not everyone you see in Andalusia wearing typical Andalusian garbs is actually ethnically Andalusian.

[Drac II]

Unless someone can tell me the origins of J1 and J2 in Southern Iberia were not of Arabic origin; then I will stop with that ridiculous argument. But I don't think it's ridiculous. ha

Those genetic markers could have entered Southern Iberia during ancient or prehistoric times. Same as the much discussed E-M81 marker from North Africa. All these haplogroups are THOUSANDS of years old. There is no way of pinpointing a specific time for when they entered any given region.

[Melancon]

You must really think that people are really naive and can't tell what you are doing. Googling those words also brings up people like these, which you conveniently left out since they don't fit your agenda:


jerez1.jpg:

11418676406_e0fe40efcf.jpg001.jpg



ecos_g.jpg

It's called "cherry-picking" and it can be done to any country or region.

Note: you also seem ignorant of the fact that Spain has a Gypsy population of over 1 million, the large majority of them in Andalusia. Not everyone you see in Andalusia wearing typical Andalusian garbs is actually ethnically Andalusian.

No cherry picking. none at all. I was actually going to add the first photo you posted haha. but I could only use 5 attachments...and by the way. I still stand by my point.

[Drac II]

There is no problem with me understanding; seems like everyone else is self-projecting their misunderstandings onto me. Spain and Portugal have the most African and Red Sea admixture of any country in Europe. That is evident by the maps here on Eupedia. But people here say that Spanish people have no North African or Near Eastern contribution. So these two arguments seem like a total contradiction to me; and this is where everyone in this thread has a clash/misunderstanding.

Someone here said that mtdna U6 wasn't Sephardic Jewish as I had insisted; but instead said that it was North African. Which only proves my point; and they contradicted themselves. While claiming that Catalonians and other Spaniards have no Phoenician or Arabic admixture. (I can go back and quote them.) No offense to them; but they have contradicted themselves; not I.

Using logic. Someone here in this post is wrong. It's not me. Is it actually Maciamo of all people?

Additionally; there are samples of genetics in Portuguese and Andalusian populations which do not exist in Basques...so to say that they are the same people or have the same looks or admixture is ludicrous.

Red Sea Admixture is highest in Italy, according to that map:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...-admixture.gif

And no one is denying that there are some North African and Middle Eastern haplogroups in Iberia, what is being pointed out is that there is no proof whatsoever that they must be from "recent" (among people with anti-Iberian agendas this is usually jive for "Moorish") times, as some people with peculiar obsessions with Iberians keep trying to push for their own agendas.

[Drac II]

No cherry picking. none at all. I was actually going to add the first photo you posted haha. but I could only use 5 attachments...and by the way. I still stand by my point.

Of course it's cherry picking, and you never really had much of a point to begin with.

[Drac II]

when you say non European mediterenean populations?
do you input R1xyz as European? or even otzi's G2a

No, I mean the countries outside Europe that border the Mediterranean sea. In anthropology these nations are usually labelled "Mediterranean", but a closer analysis reveals that many of them have strong influence from other sub-races, they are not just "Mediterranean". In the case of the Near East (places like Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Turkey, etc.) there's been strong Dinarization, very likely through Armenoid influence.

[Melancon]

Of course it's cherry picking, and you never really had much of a point to begin with.

No it's not; and your baseless accusations make you look like a poison clubfoot dwarf in this.

[Drac II]

No it's not; and your baseless accusations make you look like a poison clubfoot dwarf in this.

Your denial of what you obviously did is what makes you look like that.

[Melancon]

Those genetic markers could have entered Southern Iberia during ancient or prehistoric times. Same as the much discussed E-M81 marker from North Africa. All these haplogroups are THOUSANDS of years old. There is no way of pinpointing a specific time for when they entered any given region.

J1 is 11,000 years old; making it born in the Middle East during the European Mesolithic. There is no way it could have gotten there from European migration before the Mesolithic. So it is most likely non-European. Unless it came from Central Europe.

You could make the same argument for Q1b; but it would be invalid....because Q1b was brought to South Iberia by either the Phoenicians or Sephardic Jews:

Haplogroup-Q.jpg

It is also prevalent in Sicily; and so is J1.

I'm stating facts...all you are doing is making up your own reality with wishful thinking; and making baseless accusations. "anti-iberian" - So you are calling me a racist.

[Melancon]

Your denial of what you obviously did is what makes you look like that.

There is no in-denial; you are self-projecting your own insecurities. I called you a clubfoot because it is a character in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

[Drac II]

J1 is 11,000 years old; making it born in the Middle East during the European Mesolithic. There is no way it could have gotten there from non-European migration after the Mesolithic.

You could make the same argument for Q1b; but it would be invalid....because Q1b was brought to South Iberia by either the Phoenicians or Sephardic Jews:

Haplogroup-Q.jpg

It is also prevalent in Sicily; and so is J1.

I'm stating facts...all you are doing is making up your own reality with wishful thinking; and making baseless accusations. "anti-iberian" - So you are calling me a racist.

You are stating assumptions, which is a very different thing. Again, there is no conclusive evidence that these haplogroups, which you seem already aware of how old they are, was brought by any specific group of people during historical times. The fact that most haplogroup studies try to be cautious about this and use words like "may", "and/or" and the like should already have told you that.

J1 is not only found in Sicily, it is found almost all over the Italian peninsula.

[Drac II]

There is no in-denial; you are self-projecting your own insecurities. I called you a clubfoot because it is a character in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Of course there is, you did something in plain public view and then tried to claim you did not. Did you really think no one was going to call your bluff and check?

[Melancon]

You are stating assumptions, which is a very different thing. Again, there is no conclusive evidence that these haplogroups, which you seem already aware of how old they are, was brought by any specific group of people during historical times. The fact that most haplogroup studies try to be cautious about this and use words like "may", "and/or" and the like should already have told you that.

J1 is not only found in Sicily, it is found almost all over the Italian peninsula.

If I am making baseless assumptions; by your logic, then that means almost all theorists; including Maciamo, are making assumptions too. You're contradicting yourself, and now you are in the midst of making more contradictions. Not only have you made baseless accusations; but you're making baseless assumptions as well. Man, you are terrible at this stuff.

There was no bluff. I just enjoy debating with people and telling them that they are wrong. But one thing I am detecting is, you're either very misinformed/delusional, or have a serious insecurity complex. lol

[Melancon]

Of course there is, you did something in plain public view and then tried to claim you did not. Did you really think no one was going to call your bluff and check?

A clubfoot is a metaphor for someone who is jealous or insecure and is out for defamation and character assassination; which is exactly what you are beguiling in your continuous ill-informed arguments with baseless assumptions and accusations.

I studied philosophy in college. Then I had an off-class teacher. I know logic better than you do. I am a soldier in the mental realm. Keep comin' at me though. :)

[Drac II]

If I am making baseless assumptions; by your logic, then that means almost all theorists; including Maciamo, are making assumptions too. You're contradicting yourself, and now you are in the midst of making more contradictions. Not only have you made baseless accusations; but you're making baseless assumptions as well. Man, you are terrible at this stuff.

There was no bluff. I just enjoy debating with people and telling them that they are wrong. But one thing I am detecting is, you're either very misinformed/delusional, or have a serious insecurity complex. lol

You obviously have reading & comprehension problems, because from the very beginning several people have been coming to this thread and stating that what the OP wrote are speculations (whether about Phoenicians or Basques), and I think he is aware of it, even the language he sometimes uses ("probably") should have given you a hint.

The "contradictions" are the product of your imagination. In fact, the only contradictions are coming from your part.

There was a bluff ("check out Andalusian people on Google Images") and I called you out on it by actually checking it out and seeing your hilarious cherry-picking.

Then get another hobby because your "debating" skills are poor, to say the least. They consist mostly in making false, incorrect and/or exaggerated statements and then when confronted about it project your own insecurities & complexes upon others for having responded and put you in your place. Typical t-r-o-l-l tactics.

[Drac II]

A clubfoot is a metaphor for someone who is jealous or insecure and is out for defamation and character assassination; which is exactly what you are beguiling in your continuous ill-informed arguments with baseless assumptions and accusations.

I studied philosophy in college. Then I had an off-class teacher. I know logic better than you do. I am a soldier in the mental realm. Keep comin' at me though. :)

You ought to know what it is, since it fits you like a glove.

You must have flunked those imaginary classes. Go back to school, kid. For real this time.

[Alan]

I had to read so much crap in this thread that it created eye cancer. People talking about European vs "non European" Halogroups lol.

[Melancon]

You ought to know what it is, since it fits you like a glove.

You must have flunked those imaginary classes. Go back to school, kid. For real this time.

Kid??? Flunked? Imaginary classes? LOL.

I am in the same boat as Maciamo. If you have any ground on "logic" then explain to me how Q1b and J1 arrived in Southern Iberia? What is the alternative explanation here?

[Melancon]

You obviously have reading & comprehension problems, because from the very beginning several people have been coming to this thread and stating that what the OP wrote are speculations (whether about Phoenicians or Basques), and I think he is aware of it, even the language he sometimes uses ("probably") should have given you a hint.

The "contradictions" are the product of your imagination. In fact, the only contradictions are coming from your part.

There was a bluff ("check out Andalusian people on Google Images") and I called you out on it by actually checking it out and seeing your hilarious cherry-picking.

Then get another hobby because your "debating" skills are poor, to say the least. They consist mostly in making false, incorrect and/or exaggerated statements and then when confronted about it project your own insecurities & complexes upon others for having responded and put you in your place. Typical t-r-o-l-l tactics.

Self-projecting your own tendencies will not make you win an argument. You will win an argument over nothing; an imaginary argument; because you argue over nothing. There is no other explanation for how these haplogroups arrived. And again, I am not the one who surmised that Q1b was Phoenician; it was Maciamo. The owner of this website.

You are t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g and spamming this post; not I.

[Melancon]

You obviously have reading & comprehension problems, because from the very beginning several people have been coming to this thread and stating that what the OP wrote are speculations (whether about Phoenicians or Basques), and I think he is aware of it, even the language he sometimes uses ("probably") should have given you a hint.

The "contradictions" are the product of your imagination. In fact, the only contradictions are coming from your part.

There was a bluff ("check out Andalusian people on Google Images") and I called you out on it by actually checking it out and seeing your hilarious cherry-picking.

Then get another hobby because your "debating" skills are poor, to say the least. They consist mostly in making false, incorrect and/or exaggerated statements and then when confronted about it project your own insecurities & complexes upon others for having responded and put you in your place. Typical t-r-o-l-l tactics.

Until you can prove to me that J1 subclades entered South Iberia from Central Europe or the Balkans and not North Africa; your arguments will remain invalid...

Give it up guy.

[Drac II]

Kid??? Flunked? Imaginary classes? LOL.

I am in the same boat as Maciamo. If you have any ground on "logic" then explain to me how Q1b and J1 arrived in Southern Iberia? What is the alternative explanation here?

The exact same ones as have been offered by others (and including "Maciamo" himself): prehistoric or ancient population movements. Example:

"Even Neolithic farmers appear to have come from two different sources, each bringing their own set of haplogroups and autosomal admixtures. A first Mediterranean route brought farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture from the Balkans and Italy. Soon afterwards, La Almagra Pottery culture developed in Andalusia, apparently emerging from the present-day Maghreb. This event would explain the presence of both Northwest African and Red Sea DNA, such as Y-haplogroup E-M81, J1 and T, across most of southern and western Iberia."

[Melancon]

The exact same ones as have been offered by others (and including "Maciamo" himself): prehistoric or ancient population movements. Example:

"Even Neolithic farmers appear to have come from two different sources, each bringing their own set of haplogroups and autosomal admixtures. A first Mediterranean route brought farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture from the Balkans and Italy. Soon afterwards, La Almagra Pottery culture developed in Andalusia, apparently emerging from the present-day Maghreb. This event would explain the presence of both Northwest African and Red Sea DNA, such as Y-haplogroup E-M81, J1 and T, across most of southern and western Iberia."

The Maghreb is not Europe; it's North Africa. So right there you just proved yourself wrong, and me and Maciamo correct. Lmao.

[Drac II]

Until you can prove to me that J1 subclades entered South Iberia from Central Europe or the Balkans and not North Africa; your arguments will remain invalid...

Give it up guy.

And I suppose you imagine that the J1 in Central Europe and the Balkans are local developments instead of also having their origins in the Middle East. You give it up, guy.

[Melancon]

And I suppose you imagine that the J1 in Central Europe and the Balkans are local developments instead of also having their origins in the Middle East. You give it up, guy.

No; they both descend from the same ancestor. That is correct. But there were splits. That's why they are called subclades.

Haplogroup Q exists in Mongoloids; Native Americans, but it is also found in people from the Levant and Near East, such as Lebanese, Syrians, Ashkenazi Jews. These are all people of different races.

And there are people in Sub-Saharan Africa that carry R1b-V88. Doesn't mean that they are Europeans.

[Drac II]

The Maghreb is not Europe; it's North Africa. So right there you just proved yourself wrong, and me and Maciamo correct. Lmao.

Learn to read: he is telling you that they can easily have come from a PREHISTORIC source, not necessarily from historical people like "Jews" or "Arabs" who did not exist back in those times. That's the point. Also, I get the impression that you imagine that the same haplogroups found elsewhere in Europe are actually local developments instead of having come from elsewhere too at some point. The only one proving himself wrong is you.