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Thread: New big paper on Catalan Y-DNA

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    New big paper on Catalan Y-DNA

    Last edited by Sile; 20-02-15 at 19:20.
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    I have found a quick way to count the samples using the 'Find' tool in Adobe Reader.

    - E1b1a (M180) : 1
    - E1b1b : 191 (= 8.3%)
    - E-M35* : 1
    -- E-V12 : 7
    -- E-V13 : 92 (= 4%)
    -- E-V22 : 6
    -- E-M81 : 41 (= 1.8%)
    -- E-M123 : 44 (= 1.9%)
    - G* : 1
    - G2a : 99 (= 4.3%)
    - I1 : 44 (= 1.9%)
    - I2 : 115 (= 5%)
    -- I2-P215 : 11 (= 0.5%)
    -- I2-M223 : 37 (= 1.6%)
    -- I2-P37.2 : 25 (P37.2+subclades = 2.9%)
    --- I2-M26 : 38
    --- I2-M423 : 4
    - J1 : 55 (= 2.4%)
    -- J1-P58 : 23 (= 1%)
    - J2a : 169 (= 7.3%)
    -- J2a-M67 : 39
    -- J2a-M92 : 27
    - J2b : 42 (= 1.8%)
    - R1-M173* : 1
    - R1a : 32 (= 1.4%)
    - R1b : 1525 (= 66.3%)
    - R1b-M343 (incl. V88) : 22 (= 1%)
    -- R1b-L23 : 1
    --- R1b-U106 : 51 (U106+Z381 = 4.8%)
    ---- R1b-Z381 : 59
    --- R1b-P312 : 371
    ---- R1b-L21 : 140 (= 6.1%)
    ---- R1b-U152 : 199 (= 8.7%)
    ---- R1b-Z195 : 132 (Z195+subclades = 28.2%)
    ----- R1b-SRY2627 : 222
    ----- R1b-Z220 : 199
    ------ R1b-Z278 : 74
    ------- R1b-M153 : 21
    - T : 28 (= 1.2%)

    TOTAL : 2309 samples




    ANALYSIS

    I have checked a bit the origin of the samples. A minority are immigrants from other regions of Spain.

    What we notice at first sight is that I1, I2-M223, R1a, J1, J2a , E1b1b (esp. E-M123) and T have slightly higher frequencies than previously reported in smaller studies, while R1b which is considerably lower (82% => 66%).

    Interestingly there isn't any Germanic R1b-106, I1 or I2-M223 in the Balearic samples (Mallorca, Menorca). I1 and R1b-S106 appears to be most common around Barcelona and central Catalonia. Haplogroup I1 is just above 5% in coastal Catalonia.

    R1b-U152 is evenly distributed in all regions. At over 8%, it is by far the highest regional frequency reported to date in the Iberian peninsula. Since the Mediterranean coast of Spain was never known to be Celtic speaking, it looks like the Romans played a bigger role in spreading U152 in Iberia than the Celts.

    There is a hotspot of G2a around Lleida (24 of of 223 samples, or 10.8%), Central Catalonia (15 out of 234 samples, or 6.4%) and around Barcelona, but there is very little of it in the Valencian region. Lleida is the inland Pyrenees region, which would have served as a refuge for the Neolithic population, like most mountainous parts of Europe.

    There is a hotspot of J1 in Girona (both M267 and P58), where it makes up 8.3% of the population (18 of 219 samples). But otherwise J1 is well distributed in most regions except Lleida and Mallorca which only have one sample.

    There is a hotspot of E-M123 in Castelló (16 out of 144 samples, or 11.1%), but that haplogroup is absent from the Balearic samples.

    Most of the T1a samples are concentrated around Central Catalonia, Camp de Tarragona and especially Penedès (7 out of 164 samples, or 4.3%), but T1a is also found in Valencia, Mallorca, Barcelona and Girona. None in Lleide or Pireneu.

    J1-P58, E-M123 and T1a are all potentially of Jewish or Arabic origin, although the Greeks and Romans could also have contributed in Catalonia.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 23-02-15 at 09:15.
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    That's not exactly Catalonia, because it includes also Valencia and Balearic Islands.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    That's not exactly Catalonia, because it includes also Valencia and Balearic Islands.
    Yes, that's the Catalan-speaking regions of Spain, or former County of Barcelona.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, that's the Catalan-speaking regions of Spain, or former County of Barcelona.
    correct, and including the inland Aragon province


    J2a seems to agree with the pheonician marker ( as once also stated by natgen)

    R1b-Z195 sticks out


    with the other new paper .......from arabia to Iberia ...........you basically have all of iberia covered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have found a quick way to count the samples using the 'Find' tool in Adobe Reader.

    - E1b1b : 190 (= 8.3%)
    -- E-V12 : 7
    -- E-V13 : 92 (= 4%)
    -- E-V22 : 6
    -- E-M81 : 41 (= 1.8%)
    -- E-M123 : 44 (= 1.9%)
    - G2a : 99 (= 4.3%)
    - I1 : 44 (= 1.9%)
    - I2 : 115 (= 5%)
    -- I2-P215 : 11 (= 0.5%)
    -- I2-M223 : 37 (= 1.6%)
    -- I2-P37.2 : 25 (P37.2+subclades = 2.9%)
    --- I2-M26 : 38
    --- I2-M423 : 4
    - J1 : 55 (= 2.4%)
    -- J1-P58 : 23 (= 1%)
    - J2a : 169 (= 7.3%)
    -- J2a-M67 : 39
    -- J2a-M92 : 27
    - J2b : 42 (= 1.8%)
    - R1a : 32 (= 1.4%)
    - R1b : 1525 (= 66.3%)
    - R1b-M343 (incl. V88) : 22 (= 1%)
    -- R1b-L23 : 1
    --- R1b-U106 : 51 (U106+Z381 = 4.8%)
    ---- R1b-Z381 : 59
    --- R1b-P312 : 371
    ---- R1b-L21 : 140 (= 6.1%)
    ---- R1b-U152 : 199 (= 8.7%)
    ---- R1b-Z195 : 132 (Z195+subclades = 28.2%)
    ----- R1b-SRY2627 : 222
    ----- R1b-Z220 : 199
    ------ R1b-Z278 : 74
    ------- R1b-M153 : 21
    - T : 28 (= 1.2%)

    TOTAL : 2299 samples


    The paper says that they tested approximately 2500 samples. The data sheet only 55 pages with 42 samples per page, so it should be 2310 samples minus one line for the header. That leaves 10 samples unaccounted for. I must have forgotten some haplogroup(s). If someone finds the mistake, please let me know.


    ANALYSIS

    I have checked a bit the origin of the samples. A minority are immigrants from other regions of Spain.

    What we notice at first sight is that I1, I2-M223, R1a, J1, J2a , E1b1b (esp. E-M123) and T have slightly higher frequencies than previously reported in smaller studies, while R1b which is considerably lower (82% => 66%).

    Interestingly there isn't any Germanic R1b-106, I1 or I2-M223 in the Balearic samples (Mallorca, Menorca). I1 and R1b-S106 appears to be most common around Barcelona and central Catalonia. Haplogroup I1 is just above 5% in coastal Catalonia.

    R1b-U152 is evenly distributed in all regions. At over 8%, it is by far the highest regional frequency reported to date in the Iberian peninsula. Since the Mediterranean coast of Spain was never known to be Celtic speaking, it looks like the Romans played a bigger role in spreading U152 in Iberia than the Celts.

    There is a hotspot of G2a around Lleida (24 of of 223 samples, or 10.8%), Central Catalonia (15 out of 234 samples, or 6.4%) and around Barcelona, but there is very little of it in the Valencian region. Lleida is the inland Pyrenees region, which would have served as a refuge for the Neolithic population, like most mountainous parts of Europe.

    There is a hotspot of J1 in Girona (both M267 and P58), where it makes up 8.3% of the population (18 of 219 samples). But otherwise J1 is well distributed in most regions except Lleida and Mallorca which only have one sample.

    There is a hotspot of E-M123 in Castelló (16 out of 144 samples, or 11.1%), but that haplogroup is absent from the Balearic samples.

    Most of the T1a samples are concentrated around Central Catalonia, Camp de Tarragona and especially Penedès (7 out of 164 samples, or 4.3%), but T1a is also found in Valencia, Mallorca, Barcelona and Girona. None in Lleide or Pireneu.

    J1-P58, E-M123 and T1a are all potentially of Jewish or Arabic origin, although the Greeks and Romans could also have contributed in Catalonia.
    I can only see missing is ..............R2 , C* and K* ......and maybe plain R1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I can only see missing is ..............R2 , C* and K* ......and maybe plain R1b
    Well done. There are indeed 3x C*, 1x K* and 2x R2. That's five. There are still five missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Well done. There are indeed 3x C*, 1x K* and 2x R2. That's five. There are still five missing.
    your counting is as good as mine.....that's six

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    correct, and including the inland Aragon province


    J2a seems to agree with the pheonician marker ( as once also stated by natgen)

    R1b-Z195 sticks out


    with the other new paper .......from arabia to Iberia ...........you basically have all of iberia covered
    There was never a Phoenician settlement in Catalonia. So no, it's not of phoenician origin. J2a-M67 is also common in the Caucasus, in Greece, Italy, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    There was never a Phoenician settlement in Catalonia. So no, it's not of phoenician origin. J2a-M67 is also common in the Caucasus, in Greece, Italy, etc.
    oh, yes there was...........

    let me know what is the original iberian marker and we can discuss further

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    oh, yes there was...........

    let me know what is the original iberian marker and we can discuss further
    phoenician settlements in Catalonia ? Since when ? They traded with the greeks and iberians, but didn't have a settlement of their own in Catalonia.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    There was never a Phoenician settlement in Catalonia. So no, it's not of phoenician origin. J2a-M67 is also common in the Caucasus, in Greece, Italy, etc.
    There was never any Roman or Slavic or Mesopotamian settlement in North America, and yet all these peoples' DNA is there now. Try to keep an open mind. People move over the centuries. The Phoenicians arrived in Spain 3000 years ago. Since then, the population of Iberia has been mixed countless times and re-exported to other regions (mostly Latin America, but not only). Immigration is not a recent phenomenon. Roman citizens moved freely inside a vast empire. The 16th century Netherlands was built on Protestant immigrants from various countries in Europe (Belgium, France, Germany and even Spain and Portugal). I don't know how you can seriously think that it is improbable that in the last 3000 years some men from Andalusia or Murcia moved up the coast to Valencia and Catalonia. People aren't immobile statues.

    Anyway the presence of haplogroup R2 in Catalonia confirms that some people of Phoenician descent ended up in Catalonia. Nobody else could have brought R2.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There was never any Roman or Slavic or Mesopotamian settlement in North America, and yet all these peoples' DNA is there now.
    But there's been massive immigration of Europeans to North-America. Not a good analogy. Where's the phoenicians settlements in Catalonia ?

    Try to keep an open mind. People move over the centuries. . I don't know how you can seriously think that it is improbable that in the last 3000 years some men from Andalusia or Murcia moved up the coast to Valencia and Catalonia. People aren't immobile statues.
    Of course they move inside of Iberia, but no such much as to be the reason for the whole 8% J2a. It's not even clear were it came from the J2 in South Spain to begin with. Also, Catalonia has a different y-DNA profile than Andalusia or Murcia, in terms of frequencies (80% of R1b).

    Also you have to keep in mind this study was not about haplogroup distribution for the general population (as the standard studies do) , but about it's correlation with surnames. In other words, there is plenty of people having the same repeated surname in this study (which is the whole point), so it's not representative in terms of the general population. Obviously in a sample of more than 2000 people in a standard popuilation study there would be repetition in surnames, but not as much as in this one.

    But one thing that makes me wonder...why you attribut this 8-10% of J2 in Spain to Phoenicians, but then the 20% in Italy or Greece, or the 7% in France, you attribute it to different populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Anyway the presence of haplogroup R2 in Catalonia confirms that some people of Phoenician descent ended up in Catalonia. Nobody else could have brought R2.
    confirms ? R2 is not even common in Lebanon. It's much more frequent in the Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Well done. There are indeed 3x C*, 1x K* and 2x R2. That's five. There are still five missing.
    Plus 1xR1-M173* + 1xE-M35* + 1xE-M180 + 1xG* - it is four, so now there are 2309 samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    But there's been massive immigration of Europeans to North-America. Not a good analogy. Where's the phoenicians settlements in Catalonia ?


    Of course they move inside of Iberia, but no such much as to be the reason for the whole 8% J2a. It's not even clear were it came from the J2 in South Spain to begin with. Also, Catalonia has a different y-DNA profile than Andalusia or Murcia, in terms of frequencies (80% of R1b).

    Also you have to keep in mind this study was not about haplogroup distribution for the general population (as the standard studies do) , but about it's correlation with surnames. In other words, there is plenty of people having the same repeated surname in this study (which is the whole point), so it's not representative in terms of the general population. Obviously in a sample of more than 2000 people in a standard popuilation study there would be repetition in surnames, but not as much as in this one.

    But one thing that makes me wonder...why you attribut this 8-10% of J2 in Spain to Phoenicians, but then the 20% in Italy or Greece, or the 7% in France, you attribute it to different populations.
    The Phoenicians were also in continental Italy (coastal Etruria), alongside with the Etruscans, who were also originally from the Near East. But I agree that there were no Phoenician enclaves in Catalonia. Phoenician enclaves in Iberia were in the southern coasts, from where they traded with the Iberians further north.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The Phoenicians were also in continental Italy (coastal Etruria), alongside with the Etruscans, who were also originally from the Near East. But I agree that there were no Phoenician enclaves in Catalonia. Phoenician enclaves in Iberia were in the southern coasts, from where they traded with the Iberians further north.
    Phoenicians were never in coastal Etruria. There were Phoenician colonies in west Sicily and south Sardinia only. The origins of the Etruscans still aren't clear.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Phoenicians were never in coastal Etruria. There were Phoenician colonies in west Sicily and south Sardinia only. The origins of the Etruscans still aren't clear.

    False:

    "Phoenician interest in central Italy, as in Sardinia, was motivated primarily by the metals trade; the wealth of the Etruscan cities also rendered them profitable commercial markets for Phoenician goods. The earliest and clearest evidence of Phoenician presence in Italy may be found on the island of Pithekoussai (modern Ischia) off the coast of southern Campania. An early Euboean foundation, the island housed an active community of Phoenician traders by the late eighth century BC, as finds of Phoenician pottery (some with graffiti) attest. In all likelihood, the islet, situated strategically en route to coastal Etruria, served as a "free port" at which native Greeks and Near Easterners mingled freely.The primary objective of Phoenician trade in Italy was, however, the northern Etrurian heartland with its ore-rich deposits of copper, lead, iron, and silver...; from an early date, it attracted Phoenician prospectors, commerciants, and artisans, who left in their wake a variety of imported goods, including luxury vessels in repoussé silver. The latter, locally produced by resident Phoenician craftsmen, may well have been offered as diplomatic gifts to local leaders in order to secure commercial mineral rights. Phoenician influence is also evident in the dramatic appearance, in the late eighth century BC, of a strongly orientalizing artistic tradition in Etruria.

    Imported pottery finds suggest that the flourishing northern Etruscan coastal cities of Populonia and Vetulonia may have formed the primary bases of operation for the Phoenicians. Phoenician knowledge of Etrurian mineral resources may have come through contact with the native inhabitants of Sardinia or through the Cypriots, both of whom were involved in the Tyrrhenian metals trade."


    http://books.google.com/books?id=smP...truria&f=false

    Page 179.

    Better learn history from books, not from "maps".

    Regarding the Etruscans, the most recent genetic study on the subject can be seen here:

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105920

    From a historical, artistic, cultural & linguistic perspective the Oriental/Eastern origin of the Etruscans is also the one that has the most going for it:

    http://www.i-italy.org/bloggers/3643...biased-history

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    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201514x6.pdf


    on another in reagrds surnames....the T1a surnames where only
    Santacana
    Melis
    Vives

    melis...."is" endings are usually greek , vives I have seen as southern french and santacana either iberian or italian


    areas tested
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g201514x10.pdf

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    another surname frequencies with gascons included

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201514x7.pdf

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    False:

    "Phoenician interest in central Italy, as in Sardinia, was motivated primarily by the metals trade; the wealth of the Etruscan cities also rendered them profitable commercial markets for Phoenician goods. The earliest and clearest evidence of Phoenician presence in Italy may be found on the island of Pithekoussai (modern Ischia) off the coast of southern Campania. An early Euboean foundation, the island housed an active community of Phoenician traders by the late eighth century BC, as finds of Phoenician pottery (some with graffiti) attest. In all likelihood, the islet, situated strategically en route to coastal Etruria, served as a "free port" at which native Greeks and Near Easterners mingled freely.The primary objective of Phoenician trade in Italy was, however, the northern Etrurian heartland with its ore-rich deposits of copper, lead, iron, and silver...; from an early date, it attracted Phoenician prospectors, commerciants, and artisans, who left in their wake a variety of imported goods, including luxury vessels in repoussé silver. The latter, locally produced by resident Phoenician craftsmen, may well have been offered as diplomatic gifts to local leaders in order to secure commercial mineral rights. Phoenician influence is also evident in the dramatic appearance, in the late eighth century BC, of a strongly orientalizing artistic tradition in Etruria.

    Imported pottery finds suggest that the flourishing northern Etruscan coastal cities of Populonia and Vetulonia may have formed the primary bases of operation for the Phoenicians. Phoenician knowledge of Etrurian mineral resources may have come through contact with the native inhabitants of Sardinia or through the Cypriots, both of whom were involved in the Tyrrhenian metals trade."


    http://books.google.com/books?id=smP...truria&f=false

    Page 179.

    Better learn history from books, not from "maps".

    Regarding the Etruscans, the most recent genetic study on the subject can be seen here:

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105920

    From a historical, artistic, cultural & linguistic perspective the Oriental/Eastern origin of the Etruscans is also the one that has the most going for it:

    http://www.i-italy.org/bloggers/3643...biased-history
    Don't say bullshits. Phoenicians and Carthage had just two small emporiums in extreme Western Sicily (Palermo and Mothia) and 5 or 6 in Sardinia. Never other in the rest of Italy. On the opposite Mediterranean Spain is plenty of their settlements.
    Don't forget the big Carthage rule.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    False:

    "Phoenician interest in central Italy, as in Sardinia, was motivated primarily by the metals trade; the wealth of the Etruscan cities also rendered them profitable commercial markets for Phoenician goods. The earliest and clearest evidence of Phoenician presence in Italy may be found on the island of Pithekoussai (modern Ischia) off the coast of southern Campania. An early Euboean foundation, the island housed an active community of Phoenician traders by the late eighth century BC, as finds of Phoenician pottery (some with graffiti) attest. In all likelihood, the islet, situated strategically en route to coastal Etruria, served as a "free port" at which native Greeks and Near Easterners mingled freely.The primary objective of Phoenician trade in Italy was, however, the northern Etrurian heartland with its ore-rich deposits of copper, lead, iron, and silver...; from an early date, it attracted Phoenician prospectors, commerciants, and artisans, who left in their wake a variety of imported goods, including luxury vessels in repoussé silver. The latter, locally produced by resident Phoenician craftsmen, may well have been offered as diplomatic gifts to local leaders in order to secure commercial mineral rights. Phoenician influence is also evident in the dramatic appearance, in the late eighth century BC, of a strongly orientalizing artistic tradition in Etruria.

    Imported pottery finds suggest that the flourishing northern Etruscan coastal cities of Populonia and Vetulonia may have formed the primary bases of operation for the Phoenicians. Phoenician knowledge of Etrurian mineral resources may have come through contact with the native inhabitants of Sardinia or through the Cypriots, both of whom were involved in the Tyrrhenian metals trade."


    http://books.google.com/books?id=smP...truria&f=false

    Page 179.

    Better learn history from books, not from "maps".

    Regarding the Etruscans, the most recent genetic study on the subject can be seen here:

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105920

    From a historical, artistic, cultural & linguistic perspective the Oriental/Eastern origin of the Etruscans is also the one that has the most going for it:

    http://www.i-italy.org/bloggers/3643...biased-history

    Perhaps you should consider the difference between a port city where merchants from all over the world meet to trade and might have a small manufacturing operation, and a colony or series of colonies. Large parts of Spain were part of the Carthaginian Empire, which you can see on the map posted by Pax Augusta.

    As for the Etruscans, I am very fond of their culture, and quite appreciative of the tremendous contributions they made to Roman civilization and through them to Europe. I honestly don't give a darn how much of their ancestry came from the Near East in the Neolithic versus in the first millennium BC. Perhaps there was large gene flow. Perhaps it was an elite migration. We don't yet know, and probably won't know until we get ancient dna. To imply that this poorly conceived paper is the gold standard for answering this question is absolutely unwarranted. This wasn't the Reich Lab, unfortunately. See the following thread for an analysis of its shortcomings.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...igin+Etruscans

    As for that second article, the person who wrote it is sadly misinformed. There is nothing uniquely or exclusively "Italian", much less "northern Italian" about seeing the Etruscans as indigenous peoples of the Italic peninsula, and their culture as an outgrowth of the Villanovan culture. Anyone who claims that obviously has no grounding in archaeology or prehistory. Had the author done some honest research, he would have found names like J.P. Mallory, John Bryan Perkins and others , names which, unless I'm very mistaken, are not Italian. :)

    You also might find it informative to read at least the Wiki article on the origin of the Etruscans. There are many references in that article, including some to scholars who have viewed the Etruscans as indigenous people. Had the person at least read that and followed the links, he would have found that indeed some Italian scholars used to believe they had a more recent Anatolian origin.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins

    Over and above all of that, what a certain anonymous blogger does or does not believe has nothing to do with the actual history of the migrations, and as I said that is going to have to wait for ancient dna, in my opinion.

    Regardless, I would remind posters that this is not a thread about the Etruscans. Posts about them are off-topic.

    Also, posts that are motivated by "ethnic" agendas and rivalries are neither appreciated nor sought. Neither is there any place for incivility, by the way.

    Ed. I have taken a closer look at that blog. It's very dodgy, in my opinion. I also have my doubts whether this person is even of Italian ancestry, and so his posts cannot have anything very informative to offer as to "Italian" opinions on any of these matters. (I understand it is quite an internet "thing" for people of non Italian or part Italian ancestry to claim it for various nefarious purposes. This makes me very leery and cautious. I just alert you to this so that you don't assume that statements from people claiming to be Italian are actually probative of the views of any actual Italians. Just some friendly advice.)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    T1a are all potentially of Jewish or Arabic origin, although the Greeks and Romans could also have contributed in Catalonia.
    Wasn't T1a also found in a late Neolithic sample, who in turn was very Yamna like?

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    Not that I am against the idea of Phoenicians reaching Catalonia. But I am very sceptical that most of J2a was brought by them. I see other sources for that.

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