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Thread: PCA trends of Europeans and Near Easterners

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    PCA trends of Europeans and Near Easterners

    There are interesting trends visible on PCA plot. Might be useful in determining historical population movement and mixing.

    PCA pulls.jpg


    Last edited by LeBrok; 25-02-15 at 06:41.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Bridges

    There are two distinct bridges between Europe and Near East, and I think 3rd is missing.

    There is the main and massive bridge through East Side of Mediterranean, Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Tuscans, S. Italians and few others. Through early farmers, Greek and Roman empires and very energetic populations of Phoenicians and Jews.

    Second bridge is smaller, and was strengthen possibly by Turks, Huns, Bulgars and other population from Scythian multicultural territory of steppe pastoralists. It connects Turkey with Bulgarians, Hungarians and Albanians.

    There are strong hints of a third bridge. Bridge through Caucasian connection of Near EAst to Eastern Europe. I placed the circle where the bridge should be, from Moravians to Adygei, containing Hungarian sample of Iron Age Hungarian and even ancient Kostenki dude. Why is it missing?
    - Lack of Russian or Russian minorities, and East Ukrainian samples from North of Caucasus are? Were they wiped out during the Great Migration period, or Mongol invasion, or Stalin ethnic policies in Soviet Union?

    If I'm not mistaken, this missing link was discussed by Alan in his thread. Just can't find it to link the discussions.

    PCA bridges.jpg

    Last edited by LeBrok; 25-02-15 at 06:42.

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    Original Plots

    Here are original plots. Appreciation goes to authors of this paper: Massive migration from the steppe is a sourcefor Indo-European languages in Europe by W.Haak and I.Lazaridis.
    Also heavily discussed on Eupedia here.


    Ancient Population

    PCA distances of ancients.jpg
    Last edited by LeBrok; 25-02-15 at 06:43.

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    Modern Population

    Last edited by LeBrok; 25-02-15 at 06:45.

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    can't open any of your plots (4)
    links seem to be broken or I am missing some software

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    can't open any of your plots (4)
    links seem to be broken or I am missing some software
    Thanks for telling me that. They show completely perfect on my screen. I was using my Drop Box for these pictures, as a new method. I will look into this problem tonight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    can't open any of your plots (4)
    links seem to be broken or I am missing some software
    Same here, and it does not seem to be a browser problem, I tried it with Google Chrome and Internet Explorer, they don't show up in either.

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    The error from Dropbox indicates that this is not a public URL. Rather it is only view-able by the owner, LeBrok.

    There is usually a public URL to cut and paste.

    Error (403)

    It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in. Check out ourHelp Center and forums for help, or head back to home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There are two distinct bridges between Europe and Near East, and I think 3rd is missing.

    There is the main and massive bridge through East Side of Mediterranean, Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Tuscans, S. Italians and few others. Through early farmers, Greek and Roman empires and very energetic populations of Phoenicians and Jews.

    Second bridge is smaller, and was strengthen possibly by Turks, Huns, Bulgars and other population from Scythian multicultural territory of steppe pastoralists. It connects Turkey with Bulgarians, Hungarians and Albanians.

    There are strong hints of a third bridge. Bridge through Caucasian connection of Near EAst to Eastern Europe. I placed the circle where the bridge should be, from Moravians to Adygei, containing Hungarian sample of Iron Age Hungarian and even ancient Kostenki dude. Why is it missing?
    - Lack of Russian or Russian minorities, and East Ukrainian samples from North of Caucasus are? Were they wiped out during the Great Migration period, or Mongol invasion, or Stalin ethnic policies in Soviet Union?

    If I'm not mistaken, this missing link was discussed by Alan in his thread. Just can't find it to link the discussions.


    It's here => http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...the-unnatural-


    I argued that first the Turkic and later Slavic migration created the gap by replacing the North Iranic tribes who would have been genetically more akine to Andronovo and Yamna. And what we see yearly from ancient Iron/Bronze Age samples is that there must have been populations in the Steppes which were in between North Caucasians and Mordovians and Russians closing this gap.

    I also don't belive that That Turks, Huns and Bulgars strengthened the bridge between the Balkans and Anatolia, rather the opposite. They forced a large portion of the Anatolian Greeks out to Greece and brought additional Irano_Turkic admixture into Central and Western Anatolia what created again a gap.
    Last edited by Alan; 24-02-15 at 15:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eochaidh View Post
    The error from Dropbox indicates that this is not a public URL. Rather it is only view-able by the owner, LeBrok.

    There is usually a public URL to cut and paste.

    Error (403)

    It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in. Check out ourHelp Center and forums for help, or head back to home.
    Thanks, I'm looking into it, though I didn't have much time to find a solution yet, so for now I attached images as uploaded files.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    It's here => http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...the-unnatural-


    I argued that first the Turkic and later Slavic migration created the gap by replacing the North Iranic tribes who would have been genetically more akine to Andronovo and Yamna. And what we see yearly from ancient Iron/Bronze Age samples is that there must have been populations in the Steppes which were in between North Caucasians and Mordovians and Russians closing this gap.
    I agree that there is a broken connection, however I'm not convinced that that Slavic and Turkic people could completely wipe out these supposed populations. Historically there is no record that Sarmatians were completely killed or chased away. They must have been assimilated. Suraly, all these historical migrations diluted this ancient bridge, plus ethnic engineering of Soviet/Stalin era did the rest. Tatars could have been mixed with locals heavily there, and all were removed by Stalin. I think, once we have more samples of Russians north off Caucasus, perhaps some from secluded villages, we should be getting the connection more visible.

    I also don't belive that That Turks, Huns and Bulgars strengthened the bridge between the Balkans and Anatolia, rather the opposite. They forced a large portion of the Anatolian Greeks out to Greece and brought additional Irano_Turkic admixture into Central and Western Anatolia what created again a gap.
    I'm not sure about that. Look at the main bridge in post 2. Greeks are more connected to Druze and Jews populations than to Anatolian/Turks. Anatolian connection stretch to the European side and butts to Bulgarians, and right behind them are Hungarians. This could be a sign of ancient neolithic/copper age migration from Anatolia, and Turkic/Bulgar/Hunic connection is coincidental. Otherwise it is hard to explain this strong pull of Turks towards Bulgaria and Hungary, but not Greece, only by excesses of Ottoman Empire and Turks.

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