The Sea Peoples Were Italic Speakers From Sicily, Sardinia and Mainland Italy?

[Angela]

Thanks to Dienekes for alerting us to this new paper:
http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TAL-40-412008-2009-pag-151-172-DeLigt.pdf

"An Eteocretan Inscription from Praisos and the Homeland of the Sea Peoples" by Luuk de Ligt.

"The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century."

Goodness, Italic speakers were one of the large contributing causes for the collapse of the great Bronze Age palatial civilizations? I've just gone on record in another thread about how I'm always on the side of the civilized core and here the Italic speakers were the "Barbarians at the Gate".:startled: Ah well, I guess everyone is descended from people of the civilized core and the Barbarians as well.

I'm not competent to judge his linguistic argument. Perhaps others can chime in...

 

[Angela]

I have moved the following interesting post from a U-152 thread to this specific thread on the paper.

Moesan:I cannot know where first Y -R1b-U152 appeared but the demographic developpment could have begun lately between Germany-France-Switzerland-Italy Alps and South Hungary-North Croatia (so in a possible Celtic-Italic area, exposed in the past "future" to Qw- >> P- switch) -
the U152 of Archaic Creta was a question for me, because I didn't link its presence to later Veneto (Venitian state in late Middle Age) but a recent extract found in Dienekes Blog could give us the clue

 

[Yetos]

@ Αγκελα

well i try to read it,

when i said about Hatti, some people above the academic were annoyed,
the problem is Arzawa or as I mentioned Arzawa/Assuwa league, if Arzawa were sea people, that means Troyans were not speaking Luwang or any IE language, but Etruscan.


but it can be also the oposite, we find part of ancient eteocretan language, using the remnants of eteocretan/possibly para-Thyrrenian in italic languages (umbrian)



PS thank you for the link,
I found more Pelasgian words that survived in Greek language!!!!!!
like 'ais' = sacred so word Αισθημα = sentiments means sacred subject, and not black subject like the Greek Ais from IE meaning black, (Aισωνος= black river (swhartz))

 

[Robert6]

Eteo-Cretan were OscanUmbrian
this is very interesting.

 

[Robert6]

Philistine as an Indo-European language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistine_language

 

[Yetos]

cherethims!!!! sea coast!!!
Ezekiel 25:16

genesis 37 36


translation of 70 cretans in Ezekiel guards in genesis

 

[Aberdeen]

cherethims!!!! sea coast!!!
Ezekiel 25:16

genesis 37 36


translation of 70 cretans in Ezekiel guards in genesis

I'm not sure I completely understand the point you're making. Could you expand on your comments?

 

[DMc]

I think Yetos' point is that the Philistines (traditionally linked to the Sea Peoples) are also linked, in the Old Testament, to the Cherethim/Cherethites, which could be a Hebraic gloss for "Cretans." It's hard to say if that's right-- there are other possible translations-- but it is worth noting that the translators of the Septuagint rendered "Cherethites" as "Cretans." I think Yetos' point is an interesting one.

 

[Yetos]

I'm not sure I completely understand the point you're making. Could you expand on your comments?

Aberdeen, DMc cover me well
ΑΖΩΤΟΣ the ancient name of Gaza,
as also the God Draco, is also connected with the Thyrrenian presence in Athens, the pre Hellenic rulling class
Dracon laws, κυλωνειον αγος, Σολων etc
as also the word Tyrrant is from Thyrrenian origin, and we find it as SeReN in Philistine (Seren)

 

[Aberdeen]

Aberdeen, DMc cover me well
ΑΖΩΤΟΣ the ancient name of Gaza,
as also the God Draco, is also connected with the Thyrrenian presence in Athens, the pre Hellenic rulling class
Dracon laws, κυλωνειον αγος, Σολων etc
as also the word Tyrrant is from Thyrrenian origin, and we find it as SeReN in Philistine (Seren)

I'm still not following you. I don't know what ideas these comments are intended to convey. The experts do seem to believe there may have been some IE influence on the Philistine language but most of the available evidence supports the idea that it was mostly a Middle Eastern language. I'd have to go to the university library to find you actual quotes, and I'm not going to do that because it's very cold and wintery here right now. But you can find some discussion of the controversy on line, including on Wikipedia.

 

[Yetos]

I'm still not following you. I don't know what ideas these comments are intended to convey. The experts do seem to believe there may have been some IE influence on the Philistine language but most of the available evidence supports the idea that it was mostly a Middle Eastern language. I'd have to go to the university library to find you actual quotes, and I'm not going to do that because it's very cold and wintery here right now. But you can find some discussion of the controversy on line, including on Wikipedia.

the link Angela gave gives well (intro) the 3 possible theories of what we Greeks call Pelasgians, and rest world sea people,
a good question is Arzawa/Assuwa language IE or not,
for IE elements you can also search Hatti language, although is unknown language

 

[Aberdeen]

the link Angela gave gives well (intro) the 3 possible theories of what we Greeks call Pelasgians, and rest world sea people,
a good question is Arzawa/Assuwa language IE or not,
for IE elements you can also search Hatti language, although is unknown language

Yes, there are some interesting theories about who the Sea People were, but the Phoenicians seem to have been primarily Canaanite, according to most scholars. If the Sea People did leave their mark on the territory of the Phoenicians, that might explain any IE element that might have been present, but you certainly can't say "Phoenicians=Sea People, because they seem to have been Semetic, according to the archeological evidence. And the Hittites were IE but the Hatti were not.

 

[Yetos]

Yes, there are some interesting theories about who the Sea People were, but the Phoenicians seem to have been primarily Canaanite, according to most scholars. If the Sea People did leave their mark on the territory of the Phoenicians, that might explain any IE element that might have been present, but you certainly can't say "Phoenicians=Sea People, because they seem to have been Semetic, according to the archeological evidence. And the Hittites were IE but the Hatti were not.

The pentapolis does seem to be Phoenician,
besides even among Phoenician we recogn 2 major sub-cultures, Tyros is not clear same culture as Sidon and byblos


generally I am conviced that Arzawa were not IE, neither Hatti, neither Phoenician, but another people, whose start homeland was near by Phoenician (Cilicia) but went West, and after hettit entrance and Destruction of Troy, moved West to Italy,
Although the link Angela provide says the oposite, which is among 'survived' theories, one of the 3,
yet the link adds another linguistic connection among Eteocretans (minoans) with Italic people

 

[Fire Haired14]

Thanks to Dienekes for alerting us to this new paper:
http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TAL-40-412008-2009-pag-151-172-DeLigt.pdf

"An Eteocretan Inscription from Praisos and the Homeland of the Sea Peoples" by Luuk de Ligt.

"The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century."

Goodness, Italic speakers were one of the large contributing causes for the collapse of the great Bronze Age palatial civilizations? I've just gone on record in another thread about how I'm always on the side of the civilized core and here the Italic speakers were the "Barbarians at the Gate".:startled: Ah well, I guess everyone is descended from people of the civilized core and the Barbarians as well.

I'm not competent to judge his linguistic argument. Perhaps others can chime in...

The ancient world was ruled by Italy(Rome) for hundreds of years and then you have the Roman Catholic church, which isn't as powerful as it used to be but still. That's where you have your civilization glory.

 

[Sennevini]

I know the writer; he is not a linguist; though he is a historian knowing
a lot about demography in the Roman empire.

 

[Aberdeen]

The pentapolis does seem to be Phoenician,
besides even among Phoenician we recogn 2 major sub-cultures, Tyros is not clear same culture as Sidon and byblos


generally I am conviced that Arzawa were not IE, neither Hatti, neither Phoenician, but another people, whose start homeland was near by Phoenician (Cilicia) but went West, and after hettit entrance and Destruction of Troy, moved West to Italy,
Although the link Angela provide says the oposite, which is among 'survived' theories, one of the 3,
yet the link adds another linguistic connection among Eteocretans (minoans) with Italic people

If you're talking about the Philistine pentapolis, the Philistines were neighbours of the Phoenicians and may have been related to them, but they weren't the same people. Scholars seem to believe that the Philistines were a mixture of Greek and Canaanite, whereas the Phoenicians seem to have been at least primarily local Semetic types, rather than having the large Greek admixture that their Philistine neighbours seem to have had.

 

[Angela]

The ancient world was ruled by Italy(Rome) for hundreds of years and then you have the Roman Catholic church, which isn't as powerful as it used to be but still. That's where you have your civilization glory.

You forgot the Renaissance...and a few other things, but I won't quibble. Imperfect civilizations and institutions all, as is true of anything created by man.

I've spent a lot of years reading and thinking about these kinds of things, and, as I've said before, I think it's a recurring pattern: we claw ourselves up and form some semblance of a civilization, imperfect and still brutal in some ways as it may be, and then it weakens from environmental and/or intrinsic causes and the less civilized groups on the periphery bring it all crashing down so we can start the process all over again with often now admixed people. There doesn't seem to be any way of stopping it, which is a pity. As LeBrok pointed out once, think of how much further ahead our knowledge would be if we hadn't had to stop and back pedal all these times.

 

[Sile]

i saw a TV program 3 days ago done by Israeli archelogists on philistines settlements and all pots, jewelry, ruling seals, cranium skeletons all led to the same conclusion, the philistines have the same as what the eastern minoan populace had ....................did these minoans get displaced by the Doric "sea peoples"

 

[MOESAN]

I'm not competant enough to give an opinion about the linguistic aspect (first importance in the link) even if I find it holds few certain facts, but if this analysis is correct for language, and because it seems speaking about the eastern part of the Island of Creta, it is very interesting because it is only in this part Y-R1b (and its SNP U-152) has some weight in percentage...
YETOS: I don't understand well your links between I-Ean, Troia, Arzawa and Sea People ?(in this last country people were supposed speaking louwitian = I-Ean - but what evident link with Troia? maybe could you give me some details you have at ahnd?

 

[Sile]

I'm not competant enough to give an opinion about the linguistic aspect (first importance in the link) even if I find it holds few certain facts, but if this analysis is correct for language, and because it seems speaking about the eastern part of the Island of Creta, it is very interesting because it is only in this part Y-R1b (and its SNP U-152) has some weight in percentage...
YETOS: I don't understand well your links between I-Ean, Troia, Arzawa and Sea People ?(in this last country people were supposed speaking louwitian = I-Ean - but what evident link with Troia? maybe could you give me some details you have at ahnd?

The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.

However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island.

http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One...n_Agriculture_under_Venetian_and_Ottoman_Rule