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Thread: E1b1b above the "Limes".......!?

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b/ E-V22

    Ethnic group
    North Sea Germanic
    Country: Netherlands



    E1b1b above the "Limes".......!?

    What are the roots of E1b1b (E-V13) living above the so called “Limes” (border of the Roman Empire)?

    Eb1b above that line is not more than 3%. That is not much but one out of 33 can not be neglected.

    On the internet and in the literature I see three theories about it:

    1. E1b1b are Neolithic farmers who brought agriculture to the North. In Northern Europe this didn’t went sudden but more gradual. The famers lived along the hunter- gatherers and finally mixed with them. Others have stated that this could not be the case because E1b1b expended from the Balkan not earlier than in the Bronze Age (Dienekes weblog).
    2. The Roman theory from Steven Bird in which troops from the Balkan where due to higher E1b1b scores in Wales and parts of England. This can be a factor for these particular areas. But above Hadrian’s Wall or the Rhine the Romans had no permanent stay. This makes the chances a lot smaller for Roman-German intermarriages than in their strongholds.
    3. E1b1b is a Jewish heritage. This can partly be the case. But I’ve read that for 80% of the E1b1b Europeans this is not the case. Jewish are frequently represented in specific branches of E1b1b.

    In my personal Y-DNA matter is my oldest known grand father Haye Jans most probably a farmer and/or sailor who lived in the seventeenth age in Wartena in the heart of Frisia. In this area is R1b-U106 (and some I1) way out dominant. So E1b1b (or E-117 or E-M35 or E-V13) dazzles me a bit. The closest match is with someone rooted in Sicily.... a remarkable fact (a nice Frisian-Sicilian combination

    Who can make me a little bit wiser?

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
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    Welcome to the forum Northener.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    What are the roots of E1b1b (E-V13) living above the so called “Limes” (border of the Roman Empire)?

    Eb1b above that line is not more than 3%. That is not much but one out of 33 can not be neglected.

    On the internet and in the literature I see three theories about it:

    1. E1b1b are Neolithic farmers who brought agriculture to the North. In Northern Europe this didn’t went sudden but more gradual. The famers lived along the hunter- gatherers and finally mixed with them. Others have stated that this could not be the case because E1b1b expended from the Balkan not earlier than in the Bronze Age (Dienekes weblog).
    In your instance its the most probable. E-V13 is found also in Scandinavia with similar percentages and they cannot be contributed to Romans as they never got there.

    2. The Roman theory from Steven Bird in which troops from the Balkan where due to higher E1b1b scores in Wales and parts of England. This can be a factor for these particular areas. But above Hadrian’s Wall or the Rhine the Romans had no permanent stay. This makes the chances a lot smaller for Roman-German intermarriages than in their strongholds.
    Its also possible but highly improbable in your case

    3. E1b1b is a Jewish heritage. This can partly be the case. But I’ve read that for 80% of the E1b1b Europeans this is not the case. Jewish are frequently represented in specific branches of E1b1b.
    E-M34 is the most common E subclade amongst Jewish people, and although even found in Jewish communities E-V13 is found in much smaller frequencies.

    What company did you test with?

    you might find this forum interesting although its a little too technical. http://community.haplozone.net/index...f2d&board=16.0

  3. #3
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Thank you for your kind answer and your link Maleth!

    I go along with you option 1 is still most likely.

    May be option 2 is still possible but then in de period between the fall of the Roman Empire and my grand-grand etc. father from around 1650. The Frisians where in the post Roman very well know traders in Europe....people moved to the prosperous Frisian area. So....?

    I’ve recently been tested (FTDNA) with the following result:
    E-L117
    13
    24
    15
    11
    18-20
    11
    12
    11
    13
    11
    30
    *E-L117 = E-V13 or E-M35 or E1b1b1 (i guess)

    I think that's close to E L542 ;)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Thank you for your kind answer and your link Maleth!

    I go along with you option 1 is still most likely.

    May be option 2 is still possible but then in de period between the fall of the Roman Empire and my grand-grand etc. father from around 1650. The Frisians where in the post Roman very well know traders in Europe....people moved to the prosperous Frisian area. So....?

    I’ve recently been tested (FTDNA) with the following result:
    E-L117
    13
    24
    15
    11
    18-20
    11
    12
    11
    13
    11
    30
    *E-L117 = E-V13 or E-M35 or E1b1b1 (i guess)

    I think that's close to E L542 ;)
    Grad gedaan. :), Option 2 is still possible too but one needs to look well at the History and intesity of Roman garrisons stationing in that region and were the troops originated from as they would reflect on particular haplogroups from those regions. Yes L542 and L117 are more common in certain areas then others and all E-V13. Have you joined any of the projects?

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/NetherlandsY
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/e-v13/default.aspx
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background (it seems this one is not public anymore you need your kit nr and password to log in. There is a long E-V13 section.

    On 12 markers my exact match was from Baden Baden South West Germany, but at 12 Markers matches and close matches are not as close as they seem to be. I have been tested on 67 markers but my match results did not change much. There are some other features you can experiment with. This is my Snp map through Ftdna found on your homepage.

    Screenshot 2015-02-24 08.23.39.jpg

  5. #5
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    Grazzi ghal darb'ohra Maleth, the results of my search I will show in a next thread!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Grazzi ghal darb'ohra Maleth, the results of my search I will show in a next thread!
    Ta' Xejn :).... (for nothing) its a pleasure

  7. #7
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    Country: Albania



    the Franks claim Troyan descent , look it up in wikipedia , the Troyans were Dardanians , there you have it 'e-v13', this is indeed interesting , the name Dardan is from Tartan the roots of the word are Ar Tan meaning our Arians , and this is the name where you live 'Wartena' Artena.

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