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Thread: 8000 Year Old British Wheat

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    8000 Year Old British Wheat



    There's an article in Science Magazine about archeological research that has been happening for several years at an underwater site off the south coast of England, at a place called Baldnor Cliff, which has yielded numerous flint objects and plant matter. Some of the plant matter was recently examined in a lab and was found to be einkorn wheat. It was apparently securely dated to 8020-7980 before present. One theory is that hunter gatherer types obtained it by trade.

    I'm not including a link because I made the mistake of buying a garbage PC with really crappy Word 8.5 software that won't allow me to copy and paste urls, and that particular url is too long to extract by any other method. I will be much happier once I buy another over-priced Apple product. But you can read about the find in Science Magazine online or at BBC News.

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    there is no mention of any grinding stones

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    I suspect that could just boil it in the broth. Filler for the soup, or roasted them by the fire. If I remember right, HGs had starches digestion genes before they have turned farmers.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is no mention of any grinding stones
    Even if they had grinding stones, I doubt that would have proven that wheat was a regular part of their diet. They would probably have ground up any nuts, seeds and wild grains they found that didn't go into a soup or stew, because that would have given them something resembling flour, which is very hand to have for cooking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I suspect that could just boil it in the broth. Filler for the soup, or roasted them by the fire. If I remember right, HGs had starches digestion genes before they have turned farmers.
    you can boil rice or millet for which the Chinese had pottery
    but boiling wheat , I never heard of that

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    There's an article in Science Magazine about archeological research that has been happening for several years at an underwater site off the south coast of England, at a place called Baldnor Cliff, which has yielded numerous flint objects and plant matter. Some of the plant matter was recently examined in a lab and was found to be einkorn wheat. It was apparently securely dated to 8020-7980 before present. One theory is that hunter gatherer types obtained it by trade.

    I'm not including a link because I made the mistake of buying a garbage PC with really crappy Word 8.5 software that won't allow me to copy and paste urls, and that particular url is too long to extract by any other method. I will be much happier once I buy another over-priced Apple product. But you can read about the find in Science Magazine online or at BBC News.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31648990

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Beer might have been made as early as 9500 BC, and involves boiling wheat. Einkorn wheat grows wild in the Balkans and HGs may have practiced some basic farming to make gathering easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    you can boil rice or millet for which the Chinese had pottery
    but boiling wheat , I never heard of that
    Me neither, but apparently it is physically possible and some people made few dishes out of it.
    I've found this example from Greece. Well there is more than wheat in it, but still boiled wheat indeed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koliva

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    Beer might have been made as early as 9500 BC, and involves boiling wheat. Einkorn wheat grows wild in the Balkans and HGs may have practiced some basic farming to make gathering easier.
    I'm sure this is how farming started by first harvesting wild wheat for good few thousands of years. Seams that H.Sapiens always contained a gene for starch digestion, therefore were able to supplement their diet with starchy grains at any time. This diet increased in Near East, rich with wheat fields, increasing with every millenium, till wheat becoming a main dietary staple. After this, they sort of had to start farming, controlling crops, increasing production, to satisfy their huge appetite for starches, and became fully fledged farmers.
    Variety of wheat seeds were found in Natufian houses 16k years ago. Probably at this time they were not farmers yet, but more like intensive harvesters.

    If it comes to alcohol/beer production. It most likely started in farming communities first. HGs might not have large supply of grains to make it viable for alcohol production, or lack of proper containers to store it. I'm not familiar with even one example of existing HGs producing alcohol, it is also not found in HG's settlements. Making this scenario rather unlikely. The first records of alcohol production is from farming communities excavation sites.
    There is also a genetic clue who was drinking alcohol first. Genetically speaking, prolonged usage of any substance can create genetic predisposition to it, like quick digestion and eliminating negative impacts on health. When we look at statistics it became obvious that South Europeans have less alcoholism problems though they drink alcohol every day. North Europeans, on other hand, are notorious for binge drinking and alcoholism. From genetics we gather, that South Europeans have more first farmers admixture, therefore long exposure to alcohol, where North Europeans have more hunter-gatherer admixtures and rather short affair with alcohol. When we add existing HGs like Prairie Indians and Australian Aborigines to the picture, who lack copies of alcohol digestion gene, and have severe alcohol problem, the picture becomes even clearer of who invented alcohol and approximately when.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    this is the site were the first seeds were found, near lake Tiberias, some 20.000 years ago :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohalo

    they found a grinding stone at the site too
    it was actually used for grinding the grains

    Grinding stone in Hut 1[edit]

    There is significant evidence to suggest that the center of activity for the inhabitants of Hut 1 was along the northern wall where the 40 cm long trapezoidal stone laid. It appears that someone attempted to embed the stone deep into the ground. The inhabitants of Ohalo II brought sand to provide a base beneath the grinding stone and small cobbles to provide additional support. A starch grain study was conducted and grain remains were found on the grinding stone surface. This supports the theory that it was indeed for grinding purposes.[10] However, comparative ethnographic evidence from hunter-gatherer groups in Africa and Australia [11] suggests that the grinding stones could also have been used for flint-tool manufacturing, pounding of ochre and bones, or cracking of eggs and nuts.[12]

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    North African couscous and bulgar is crushed wheat (not milled into flour) which is delicious and cooks very easily and added to stews or steamed. I use it alot as an alternative with various dishes and very easy to prepare.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgur

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There is also a genetic clue who was drinking alcohol first. Genetically speaking, prolonged usage of any substance can create genetic predisposition to it, like quick digestion and eliminating negative impacts on health. When we look at statistics it became obvious that South Europeans have less alcoholism problems though they drink alcohol every day. North Europeans, on other hand, are notorious for binge drinking and alcoholism. From genetics we gather, that South Europeans have more first farmers admixture, therefore long exposure to alcohol, where North Europeans have more hunter-gatherer admixtures and rather short affair with alcohol. When we add existing HGs like Prairie Indians and Australian Aborigines to the picture, who lack copies of alcohol digestion gene, and have severe alcohol problem, the picture becomes even clearer of who invented alcohol and approximately when.
    Research indicates that alcoholism among Eurasians might be Y-linked as twins reared apart only show a correlation for males, with alcoholics being predominantly men. It's hard to find consistent data on alcoholism in Europe.

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    There's a lot of different kinds of wheat. Common wheat is Triticum aestivum. It can be eaten in whole grain form (called wheat berries) by soaking in water overnight and then boiling and using them in various ways. This is Cuccia, a southern Italian dessert made of the wheat berry, creamy ricotta and honey:



    You can also combine boiled wheat kernels with orange juice and oranges or raisins or whatever you prefer.
    http://www.lovesicily.com/blog/cuccia-di-santa-lucia

    Then there's spelt (Triticum spelta), which is like barley and is used a lot in Germany, and surrounding areas, emmer (Triticum dicoccum) and einkorn (Triticum monococum). The type found in Britain is einkhorn.

    All three are called farro in Italy, but the emmer "type" or "true farro" is the most common type in Italy (and considered the highest quality) and is grown in northwest Italy and Abruzzo. The northwest Tuscan version (Garfagnana) can get an IGP designation guaranteeing it comes from that region. Farro was found in the tombs of the Egyptian pharoahs and yet almost went extinct.

    Again, you soak it, and then it can be boiled to make soups, stews, a farro risotto, or a farro salad.


    It's particularly nutritious if it's combined with beans.

    Lately it's gotten trendy...farro, cranberry and goat cheese salad:



    Well, maybe it's just getting back to our roots...I'm sure the early farmers could have put something similar together. :)

    Frachetti has some interesting things to say about the introduction of wheat into the Botai and how it had a ritual significance, being traded for and then buried in the graves, before coming into widespread use.
    https://www.academia.edu/7734041/Com...nal_Complexity

    He's interesting to read also in the context of our discussions about the Haak et al 2015 paper.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this is the site were the first seeds were found, near lake Tiberias, some 20.000 years ago :
    Thanks, even better. 20kya! So something like 10ky just harvesting and wheat diet before turning into full farmers. Long enough time to get used to wheat and everything associated with it, and develop proper and distinct genetic mutations to become ENF. I like this slow evolutionary scenario. Makes more sense than sudden eureka moment making hunter gatherers into farmers. Also explains why you can't take hunter gatherer like prairie Indians and make them farmers only by education. It was the same story with European HGs. They became farmers through gene flow rather, than through borrowing ideas, fascination with farming, and loving the culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    Research indicates that alcoholism among Eurasians might be Y-linked as twins reared apart only show a correlation for males, with alcoholics being predominantly men. It's hard to find consistent data on alcoholism in Europe.
    We talked about this here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...604#post425604

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks, even better. 20kya! So something like 10ky just harvesting and wheat diet before turning into full farmers. Long enough time to get used to wheat and everything associated with it, and develop proper and distinct genetic mutations to become ENF. I like this slow evolutionary scenario. Makes more sense than sudden eureka moment making hunter gatherers into farmers. Also explains why you can't take hunter gatherer like prairie Indians and make them farmers only by education. It was the same story with European HGs. They became farmers through gene flow rather, than through borrowing ideas, fascination with farming, and loving the culture.
    these people were ancestral to the Natufians, who lived in a land of plenty, hunting gazelles and collecting nuts, fruits and wild cereals
    the Natufians had sickles and grinding stones
    14 ka this land was becoming overpopulated and they got their final blow with the onset of the youngest dryas, 12.8 ka

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

    after the youngest dryas, 11.6 ka domestication of cereals started
    these cereals, like einkorn and barley were to be grinded
    it is this kind of cereals that was brought to Europe by the early farmers

    the paper does not specify which kind of wheat was found
    I assumed it was the kind of wheat that was cultivated by the 1st farmers in Europe, which were grinded
    that is why I mentioned the grinding stones which seem not to have been found on the site

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post

    ..............


    the paper does not specify which kind of wheat was found
    I assumed it was the kind of wheat that was cultivated by the 1st farmers in Europe, which were grinded
    that is why I mentioned the grinding stones which seem not to have been found on the site
    I haven't read the full article, which is behind a paywall. However, the BBC story about the article says it was einkorn wheat.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I just remembered this great site, Ohalo ,from the Galilee, dated to 19,400 BP. It's one of the best preserved hunter gatherer sites of the LGM. The site is significant because of the numerous fruit and cereal grain remains preserved there. They also had a grinding stone.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohalo

    "Archeologists have conducted an exhaustive study of Hut 1 at Ohalo II; this hut yielded over 90,000 seeds. The seeds account for more than 100 species of wild barley and fruits. Such a high concentration of seeds in the hut makes it highly unlikely that they were accidentally deposited into the hut via natural forces such as wind. In addition, statistical analysis demonstrates that the concentration of plant matter was significantly higher around the walls than the center. Had the seeds been deposited by the collapsed roof, they would have evenly scattered on the ground. Furthermore, just 13 species of fruit and cereal make up about half of the total number of seeds found in the area; these include brome grains (Bromus pseudobrachystachys), wild barley (Hordeum spontaneum) and millet grass grains (Piptatherum holciforme), just to name a few. This suggests a marked preference of certain species of edible plants. A seed of particular interest comes from the Rubus fruit, which was fragile, difficult to transport, and preferably eaten immediately after collection. The presence of Rubus seeds at the Ohalo II site could indicate that the seeds were dried in the sun or by the fire for storage: early evidence for advanced planning of plant food consumption. Most importantly, the extremely high concentration of seeds clustering around the grinding stone in the northern wall of Hut 1 led archeologist Ehud Weiss to believe that humans at Ohalo II processed the grain before consumption. The exact spatial distribution of the seed around a grinding stone further indicates extensive preparation. The seeds were scattered in a U-shape around the grinding stone, Weiss hypothesized that a woman was squatting at the open end of the U, and actively distributing the seeds all around her while grinding.[9]"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just remembered this great site, Ohalo ,from the Galilee, dated to 19,400 BP. It's one of the best preserved hunter gatherer sites of the LGM. The site is significant because of the numerous fruit and cereal grain remains preserved there. They also had a grinding stone.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohalo

    "Archeologists have conducted an exhaustive study of Hut 1 at Ohalo II; this hut yielded over 90,000 seeds. The seeds account for more than 100 species of wild barley and fruits. Such a high concentration of seeds in the hut makes it highly unlikely that they were accidentally deposited into the hut via natural forces such as wind. In addition, statistical analysis demonstrates that the concentration of plant matter was significantly higher around the walls than the center. Had the seeds been deposited by the collapsed roof, they would have evenly scattered on the ground. Furthermore, just 13 species of fruit and cereal make up about half of the total number of seeds found in the area; these include brome grains (Bromus pseudobrachystachys), wild barley (Hordeum spontaneum) and millet grass grains (Piptatherum holciforme), just to name a few. This suggests a marked preference of certain species of edible plants. A seed of particular interest comes from the Rubus fruit, which was fragile, difficult to transport, and preferably eaten immediately after collection. The presence of Rubus seeds at the Ohalo II site could indicate that the seeds were dried in the sun or by the fire for storage: early evidence for advanced planning of plant food consumption. Most importantly, the extremely high concentration of seeds clustering around the grinding stone in the northern wall of Hut 1 led archeologist Ehud Weiss to believe that humans at Ohalo II processed the grain before consumption. The exact spatial distribution of the seed around a grinding stone further indicates extensive preparation. The seeds were scattered in a U-shape around the grinding stone, Weiss hypothesized that a woman was squatting at the open end of the U, and actively distributing the seeds all around her while grinding.[9]"
    Apologies to Bicicleur...I just realized he had already posted about this site upthread.

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