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Thread: Yamna: "25% ENF, 30-35% ANE", and 40-45% WHG

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Yamna: "25% ENF, 30-35% ANE", and 40-45% WHG

    The Haak 2015 genomes have been released. Davidski has been working on them throughout the day. At his blog he said in Eurogenes K15 admixture they're most similar to the Volga ethnic groups; Erzya and Volga Tatars. He says they score 30-35% ANE and around 25% ENF, so it's safe to assume they're scoring 40-45% WHG. He says Yamna are fitting better as 50/50 EHG/Tabassaran not EHG/Aremenian or Iraq_Jew.

    So, in ANE K8 and Eurogenes K15 Yamna are most similar to modern pops in far eastern Europe, around where these samples come from. Volga-Russians are starting to look like Bronze age Russians with Siberian admixture. ANE is still quite high there. Udmurt are scoring the highest at 25-28%.

    Note: Middle Neolithic Europeans tend to score around 40-50% WHG and 60-50% ENF. So, we can already start getting an idea how much Pontic steppe vs EEF ancestry Euro pops have based on ANE K8. Assuming all my ANE is from the Pontic steppe(which it certainly isn't) I fit as around 30-40% Pontic Steppe and 60-70% EEF. My paternal line R1b-P312 is likely from the ancient Pontic steppe and my maternal line U5b2a2b1 is likely from EEF. Most Europeans probably won't fit as a perfect Yamna+EEF mix because other pops were involved.

    Davidski later today will make a post about K15 and ANE K8 analysis of Yamna. I'll post a link to it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The Haak 2015 genomes have been released. Davidski has been working on them throughout the day. At his blog he said in Eurogenes K15 admixture they're most similar to the Volga ethnic groups; Erzya and Volga Tatars. He says they score 30-35% ANE and around 25% ENF, so it's safe to assume they're scoring 40-45% WHG. He says Yamna are fitting better as 50/50 EHG/Tabassaran not EHG/Aremenian or Iraq_Jew.

    So, in ANE K8 and Eurogenes K15 Yamna are most similar to modern pops in far eastern Europe, around where these samples come from. Volga-Russians are starting to look like Bronze age Russians with Siberian admixture. ANE is still quite high there. Udmurt are scoring the highest at 25-28%.

    Note: Middle Neolithic Europeans tend to score around 40-50% WHG and 60-50% ENF. So, we can already start getting an idea how much Pontic steppe vs EEF ancestry Euro pops have based on ANE K8. Assuming all my ANE is from the Pontic steppe(which it certainly isn't) I fit as around 30-40% Pontic Steppe and 60-70% EEF. My paternal line R1b-P312 is likely from the ancient Pontic steppe and my maternal line U5b2a2b1 is likely from EEF. Most Europeans probably won't fit as a perfect Yamna+EEF mix because other pops were involved.

    Davidski later today will make a post about K15 and ANE K8 analysis of Yamna. I'll post a link to it.
    Thanks for posting it!

    My predictions from this thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-samples/page2 , post 49 were:
    30/45/25 EEF/WGH/ANE respectively.
    I was within 5% error of all the ratios. Not bad for eyeballing the charts and making guesstimates in my head, ha?

    The only thing I'm surprised is that I thought that these ratios will be more valid in Western Yamnaya and not so far East in Samara.

    Now lets see if they had some Gedrosia. I wonder if the Red Sea admixture was already there and the East Asian. My guess will be missing Gedrosia, missing east Asian as belonging to migration period of AD times, and Red Sea being present, as some sort of old hunter gatherer history.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The Haak 2015 genomes have been released. Davidski has been working on them throughout the day. At his blog he said in Eurogenes K15 admixture they're most similar to the Volga ethnic groups; Erzya and Volga Tatars. He says they score 30-35% ANE and around 25% ENF, so it's safe to assume they're scoring 40-45% WHG. He says Yamna are fitting better as 50/50 EHG/Tabassaran not EHG/Aremenian or Iraq_Jew.

    So, in ANE K8 and Eurogenes K15 Yamna are most similar to modern pops in far eastern Europe, around where these samples come from. Volga-Russians are starting to look like Bronze age Russians with Siberian admixture. ANE is still quite high there. Udmurt are scoring the highest at 25-28%.

    Note: Middle Neolithic Europeans tend to score around 40-50% WHG and 60-50% ENF. So, we can already start getting an idea how much Pontic steppe vs EEF ancestry Euro pops have based on ANE K8. Assuming all my ANE is from the Pontic steppe(which it certainly isn't) I fit as around 30-40% Pontic Steppe and 60-70% EEF. My paternal line R1b-P312 is likely from the ancient Pontic steppe and my maternal line U5b2a2b1 is likely from EEF. Most Europeans probably won't fit as a perfect Yamna+EEF mix because other pops were involved.

    Davidski later today will make a post about K15 and ANE K8 analysis of Yamna. I'll post a link to it.

    Davids has often it's bias. I know that all bloggers are to some extend biased. But sometimes David just tops that all. There was a time where he claimed Scythians came straight out of the Baltics.

    He has even put out basically a new calculator just for Yamna. Why not use K8 calculator at first as he did with all the other work?

    From the Reich paper we know that the Yamna cluster in between Mordovians, Lezgin and Mal'ta. How is that possible if Lezgians have close to 10% WHG and much more ENF than Yamna supposed to have? This alone makes it impossible that they are 40-45% WHG and only 25% ENF.
    Sindhis with basically only a few percentage of WHG are closer to Yamna as Spaniards or Bergamo Italians. How does that work? I would love to see with how much WHG people turn out in k15 who previously had close to 0% of it.


    Irony that he throws a new calculator out which puts the WHG exactly like he predicted, what a suprise it's close to Polish average. Oh and 25% ENF, again what a suprise typical Baltic too. So Yamna was basically Baltic (PIE were Baltics his agenda for quite some time) with more ANE.


    Reich calculates that Yamna as 50/50 Iraqi Jew/EHG but David says different. So who should we trust?

    So either Reich and co. were messing around with the actual data. Or David is doing his own thing because If that was true figures, fst Distance of Yamna to all Northeast Europeans would be much smaller than the distance to Lezgians. Or Turks wouldn't be as close to Yamna as Greeks. Something here is definitely fishy.
    Last edited by Alan; 03-03-15 at 14:13.

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    But let's for a second agree with Davids 50/50 tabassaran (Lezgic)/ EHG calculation.

    Tabassaran are 10% WHG. EHG are roughly 60% WHG. Thats roughly 35% WHG.

    Tabassaran have 60% ENF and the EHG have zero. So thats roughly 30% ENF.

    Thats 35/35/30 ANE/WHG/ENF.

    So if David says in his new calculator K15 Yamna turns out as 40-45% WHG. Than he indeed threw out a new calculator which turns every population with more WHG than the previous K8 calculator.

    Nothing about all this story adds. The way Yamna clusters, the way the mix is described (be it Lezgian/EHG or Iraqi Jew/EHG). If Yamna was indeed like Lezgian/EHG mixed they shouldn't be almost as close to Lezgians as to Mordovians because such a Lezgian/EHG mix would rather turn out like modern Northeast Europeans than actual Lezgians.

    Imagine if only half of Yamna ancestry is Lezgian like, how can Lezgians than be some of the closest groups to Yamna?

    Something here is either extremely fishy or I am missing something out.
    Last edited by Alan; 03-03-15 at 07:49.

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    Alan, I agree Davidski can be a bit east Euro-centric at times but for the most part he isn't.

    David didn't make a new calculator. He plugged EHG and Yamna samples into ANE K8 and Eurogenes K15. The Haak 2015 PCA isn't the one all and end all. It's consistent with Yamna's ANE K8 scores but they are scoring much closer to Volga-Russians than to Caucasians. The 50% Armenian score from Haak must not have been a perfect fit and should be further investigated.

    Davidski didn't say Yamna perfectly fits as 50/50 tabassaran and EHG, he said they fit better that way than 50/50 EHG/Armenian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Alan, I agree Davidski can be a bit east Euro-centric at times but for the most part he isn't.

    David didn't make a new calculator. He plugged EHG and Yamna samples into ANE K8 and Eurogenes K15. The Haak 2015 PCA isn't the one all and end all. It's consistent with Yamna's ANE K8 scores but they are scoring much closer to Volga-Russians than to Caucasians. The 50% Armenian score from Haak must not have been a perfect fit and should be further investigated.

    Davidski didn't say Yamna perfectly fits as 50/50 tabassaran and EHG, he said they fit better that way than 50/50 EHG/Armenian.
    what do you mean?.....he joined ANE k8 and K15 into one new calculator

    maybe because this favours his R1a theory.

    In the end , please need to realise that hunters and farmers lived at the same time in ancient neolithic and mesolithic ............and will be further proven by more british findings
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Alan, I agree Davidski can be a bit east Euro-centric at times but for the most part he isn't.

    David didn't make a new calculator. He plugged EHG and Yamna samples into ANE K8 and Eurogenes K15. The Haak 2015 PCA isn't the one all and end all. It's consistent with Yamna's ANE K8 scores but they are scoring much closer to Volga-Russians than to Caucasians. The 50% Armenian score from Haak must not have been a perfect fit and should be further investigated.

    Davidski didn't say Yamna perfectly fits as 50/50 tabassaran and EHG, he said they fit better that way than 50/50 EHG/Armenian.
    Sometimes is good, often fits better.


    Either he fusioned two completely different calculators (K8 and K15 which is not ANE/WHG/ENF based) together for whatever reason (probably what Sile said).

    Or Eurogenes K15 is indeed new. There is no ANE/WHG/ENF K15 calculator so far.

    Why not use at the start the K8 calc. as he had done most of his work with?

    As written. His calculation does not fit the Reich paper fst distances, PCA plot or admixture results. Either Reich has done something completely wrong or David is doing his own thing.

    Or it might be I am missing something completely.
    Last edited by Alan; 03-03-15 at 13:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Sometimes is good, often fits better.


    Either he fusioned two completely different calculators (K8 and K15 which is not ANE/WHG/ENF based) together for whatever reason (probably what Sile said).

    Or Eurogenes K15 is indeed new. There is no ANE/WHG/ENF K15 calculator so far.

    Why not use the standard K8 as he had done most of his work with?

    As written. His calculation does not fit the Reich paper fst distances, PCA plot or admixture results. Either Reich has done something completely wrong or David is doing his own thing.

    Or it might be I am missing something completely.
    50/50 EHG/Armenians in Yamnaya was always uneasy to swallow for me, considering that PCA plot shows that Yamnaya guys are twice closer to northern Europeans or to EHG than to Armenians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for posting this, FireHaired.

    As I explained in the thread Estimating the Y-DNA and autosomal admixtures of Yamnaya samples, I believe that there will be big disparities between Yamna samples depending on whether they are descended from the indigenous R1a hunters, the Neolithic farmers from Old Europe, or the actual R1b cattle herders who were the newcomers who brought the new Yamna culture to the steppe.

    The samples tested by Haak et al. 2015 are R1b. My estimation two months ago for the R1b samples was 30% EEF, 30-40% ANE and 30-40% WHG. It is almost exactly what Davidski reported. I had 30% of EEF against 25% of ENF in the samples, but that can be explained by the fact that EEF is ENF with about 10-15% of WHG. Had I given th frequencies for ENF instead of EEF, it would have been 25% ENF, 30-40% ANE and 35-45% WHG, which could be considered an exact match, as no two samples are equal anyway.


    What I would be interested to see is how the Yamna samples look like when we run them in calculators like K15, K13 or even K10. I am very curious to know how much of the West European or Atlantic admixture descends mostly from Yamna, as opposed to WHG. The modern West European admixture is probably a compound of both Yamna and Mesolithic WHG, but I bet that at least two thirds of it came from Yamna R1b people.

    Like Lebrok, I also wonder about the presence of Gedrosia and Red Sea admixtures in the Yamna samples. My guess is that they will be relatively high in Gedrosian (about 10%), but will have little if any Red Sea (< 1%).
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    50/50 EHG/Armenians in Yamnaya was always uneasy to swallow for me, considering that PCA plot shows that Yamnaya guys are twice closer to northern Europeans or to EHG than to Armenians.
    EHG is not equal to North Europeans. EHG is the dead end of H&G. and fst results showed almost the same distance of EHG to Yamna as Iraqi Jews/Armenians. Also PCA plots showing Yamna twice as close to North Europeans is actually a good fit, but than I already mentioned to be cautious about the PCA plot because it is only 2 dimensional and can't show the exact relationship. fst distances are better there. According to fst distances, the Northern Europeans were also closer Yamna than Armenians are. No one said something different.

    The point is that according to these results Yamna should be closer to any Northeast Europeans as to Lezgians what is contra PCA map and fst distance. That's why I am irritated.

    This here is the fst distances according to Reich paper.
    1-Mordovian 0.018
    2-Lezgian/Russian 0.019
    3- Czech/Belarusian/Estonian/Hungarian/Icelandic 0.020
    4-Norwegian/English 0.021
    5-Croatian/French/Lithuanian/Orcadian 0.022
    6- Bulgarian 0.023
    7- Greek/Turkish 0.026
    8-Spanish 0.027
    9- Sindhi/Bergamo 0.028
    10- Armenian/Sicilian 0.030
    11- Basque 0.034


    With that much WHG Lezgian, Turkish Sindhi and Armenian should be at the end of that list behind most of the Europeans. And all the Northeast Europeans at the top with North Europeans at second place. Greeks should be allot closer than Turks, because Greeks ANE is close enough to Turkish (only 4% less) and at the same time more than three times as much WHG (26% vs 8%), There ENF is also less than among Turks which again would push them more towards Yamna.
    Last edited by Alan; 03-03-15 at 14:56.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here's the ANE K8 score of the Yamna sample with the highest ANE according to Davidski. His opinion right now is that Yamna was a mix of EHG, central Asian hunter gatherers, and pure ENF.

    ANE 38.13
    South_Eurasian 3.56
    ENF 22.88
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 34.5
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0.01
    Sub-Saharan 0.93

    Here's the Eurogenes K15 scores of the two EHGs. He mentioned EHG is 40% ANE at most.

    Samara_HG

    North_Sea 25.51
    Atlantic 0.01
    Baltic 17.68
    Eastern_Euro 41.73
    West_Med 0
    West_Asian 0
    East_Med 0
    Red_Sea 0
    South_Asian 1.99
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 12.02
    Oceanian 1.07
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    Karelia_HG

    North_Sea 23.73
    Atlantic 0.13
    Baltic 18.89
    Eastern_Euro 40.43
    West_Med 0
    West_Asian 0
    East_Med 0
    Red_Sea 0
    South_Asian 0.26
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 16.47
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0.08

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Here's the ANE K8 score of the Yamna sample with the highest ANE according to Davidski. His opinion right now is that Yamna was a mix of EHG, central Asian hunter gatherers, and pure ENF.

    ANE 38.13
    South_Eurasian 3.56
    ENF 22.88
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 34.5
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0.01
    Sub-Saharan 0.93

    So indeed more like 35% WHG. I though they were at least 40% WHG according to the other calculations.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post451196

    I was off with my ENF figures (expected more to be honest). The appearance of 3.5 % South Eurasian is another proof for me that it was part of Indo Europeans all along (as a minor component) and that ANE was brought to Russia probably from South_Central Asian H&G.

    So the new Eurogenes K15 makes the samples appear significantly more WHG?

    These results fit much better with the actual Reich paper imo.
    Last edited by Alan; 04-03-15 at 06:29.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Here are the K15 admixtures for all the Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples.

    As I predicted no Red Sea admixture in the Yamna (nor Corded Ware) samples, and only traces (<1%) in the German Bell Beaker ones. I have linked this admixture to haplogroup E1b1b and T.

    The K15 doesn't have the Gedrosian, but the South Asian is a bit similar and is quite high in Yamna samples (6-7%) but progressively decreases to 3% in Corded Ware and 0 to 3% in German Bell Beakers. It doesn't necessarily mean that R1b people came from South Asia, but just that modern South Asians carry a similar admixture through haplogroup R1a and R2. South Asian was already found in the Mal'ta boy (hg R*) from Siberia.

    Likewise, the relatively high Amerindian admixture in the Karelia and Samara samples (16% and 12%) stems from the phylogenetic link between haplogroups Q and R. This admixture progressively decreases to 4-5% in Yamna, 1.5-3.5% in Corded Ware, and 1-3% in Bell Beakers.

    The Eastern European admixture is highest in the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara samples (40%), then drops to 25-33% in Yamna, 14-23% in Corded Ware, and 5-18% in German Bell Beakers. This admixture is linked more specifically to haplogroup R1 (EHG).

    The West European admixture of Dodecad is divided in North Sea and Atlantic in K15. It is really interesting to see that the Karelia, Samara, Yamna and Corded Ware samples had between 18% and 30% of North Sea (average 25%), but only the Corded Ware had significant levels of Atlantic admixture (20% to 27% except one sample at 8%). Yamna ranged from 0% to 9.7% of Atlantic. German Bell Beaker samples have between 21% and 33%. So it looks like the North Sea admixture is associated with R1b Indo-Europeans, while the Atlantic one could be more widely Mesolithic European.

    The East and West Mediterranean admixtures were both at 0% in all samples except Bell Beakers. This is just like the Red Sea admixture. That confirms that the Mediterranean and Red Sea admixtures are both associated with Neolithic farmers, but not Proto-Indo-Europeans. This also proves that the German Bell Beaker samples had already mixed to a considerable extent with Neolithic Europeans.

    In contrast, the West Asian admixture was completely absent from Mesolithic HG from Karelia and Samara, but high in Yamna samples (15% to 22.5%), then also decreases progressively. This is the best proof that R1b-M269 people had partial ancestry from the Caucasus/Kurdistan region, which older R1b from Eastern Europe didn't have. It confirms my theory that some R1b people settled in West Asia in the late Palaeolithic, then domesticated cattle around northern Mesopotamia (Assyria/Kurdistan), then moved back across the Caucasus to use the vast expanse of grassland for their cattle. During the few millennia they stayed in West Asia they had married women from neighbouring tribes and acquired West Asian admixture. This happened before Levantine cereal farmers (G2a) moved in the region, or at least before they mixed with R1b people in West Asia, which explains why Yamna people do not have any Mediterranean admixture. Their ENF is purely West Asian (linked to hg J2 rather than G2a, E1b1b). This also means that it is not impossible that a minority of J2 people (J2b2, and maybe also some J2a) were part of the Yamna population. I proposed this several years ago, although I couldn't decide whether J2b came from the Balkans to the steppe, or from West Asia. Now it appears it is from West Asia.


    The Baltic admixture doesn't show big variations between Mesolithic (18%), Yamna (10-16%), Corded Ware (12-20%) and Bell Beaker (6-18%) samples. It is the only stable component. It might be linked to the ubiquitous mtDNA U5 (and Y-haplogroup I), found in all Mesolithic Europeans and absorbed by Neolithic farmers too. Nowadays U5 is most common in the Baltic region. I would think that this admixture was named Baltic because U5 genes survived best in this region, not because the Baltic was the source region (which it certainly wasn't since northern Europe was under ice until the end of the Würm glaciation 10,000 years ago).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here are the K15 admixtures for all the Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples.

    As I predicted no Red Sea admixture in the Yamna (nor Corded Ware) samples, and only traces (<1%) in the German Bell Beaker ones. I have linked this admixture to haplogroup E1b1b and T.

    The K15 doesn't have the Gedrosian, but the South Asian is a bit similar and is quite high in Yamna samples (6-7%) but progressively decreases to 3% in Corded Ware and 0 to 3% in German Bell Beakers.
    South Asian is a hybrid component in any sense. in some calculators Gedrosia gets broken up into "South Asian" and "West Asian" (predominantly). So I assume that this "South Asian" is actually a portion of Gedrosia. Mal'ta did also have this "South Asian" admixture which later turned out as Gedrosia. And some of the "European" in the Mal'ta paper turned out as Caucasus.

    Itwill beinteresting to see the Yamna DNA in k12b.
    Last edited by Alan; 03-03-15 at 22:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here are the K15 admixtures for all the Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples.

    As I predicted no Red Sea admixture in the Yamna (nor Corded Ware) samples, and only traces (<1%) in the German Bell Beaker ones. I have linked this admixture to haplogroup E1b1b and T.

    The K15 doesn't have the Gedrosian, but the South Asian is a bit similar and is quite high in Yamna samples (6-7%) but progressively decreases to 3% in Corded Ware and 0 to 3% in German Bell Beakers. It doesn't necessarily mean that R1b people came from South Asia, but just that modern South Asians carry a similar admixture through haplogroup R1a and R2. South Asian was already found in the Mal'ta boy (hg R*) from Siberia.

    Likewise, the relatively high Amerindian admixture in the Karelia and Samara samples (16% and 12%) stems from the phylogenetic link between haplogroups Q and R. This admixture progressively decreases to 4-5% in Yamna, 1.5-3.5% in Corded Ware, and 1-3% in Bell Beakers.

    The Eastern European admixture is highest in the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara samples (40%), then drops to 25-33% in Yamna, 14-23% in Corded Ware, and 5-18% in German Bell Beakers. This admixture is linked more specifically to haplogroup R1 (EHG).

    The West European admixture of Dodecad is divided in North Sea and Atlantic in K15. It is really interesting to see that the Karelia, Samara, Yamna and Corded Ware samples had between 18% and 30% of North Sea (average 25%), but only the Corded Ware had significant levels of Atlantic admixture (20% to 27% except one sample at 8%). Yamna ranged from 0% to 9.7% of Atlantic. German Bell Beaker samples have between 21% and 33%. So it looks like the North Sea admixture is associated with R1b Indo-Europeans, while the Atlantic one could be more widely Mesolithic European.

    The East and West Mediterranean admixtures were both at 0% in all samples except Bell Beakers. This is just like the Red Sea admixture. That confirms that the Mediterranean and Red Sea admixtures are both associated with Neolithic farmers, but not Proto-Indo-Europeans. This also proves that the German Bell Beaker samples had already mixed to a considerable extent with Neolithic Europeans.

    In contrast, the West Asian admixture was completely absent from Mesolithic HG from Karelia and Samara, but high in Yamna samples (15% to 22.5%), then also decreases progressively. This is the best proof that R1b-M269 people had partial ancestry from the Caucasus/Kurdistan region, which older R1b from Eastern Europe didn't have. It confirms my theory that some R1b people settled in West Asia in the late Palaeolithic, then domesticated cattle around northern Mesopotamia (Assyria/Kurdistan), then moved back across the Caucasus to use the vast expanse of grassland for their cattle. During the few millennia they stayed in West Asia they had married women from neighbouring tribes and acquired West Asian admixture. This happened before Levantine cereal farmers (G2a) moved in the region, or at least before they mixed with R1b people in West Asia, which explains why Yamna people do not have any Mediterranean admixture. Their ENF is purely West Asian (linked to hg J2 rather than G2a, E1b1b). This also means that it is not impossible that a minority of J2 people (J2b2, and maybe also some J2a) were part of the Yamna population. I proposed this several years ago, although I couldn't decide whether J2b came from the Balkans to the steppe, or from West Asia. Now it appears it is from West Asia.


    The Baltic admixture doesn't show big variations between Mesolithic (18%), Yamna (10-16%), Corded Ware (12-20%) and Bell Beaker (6-18%) samples. It is the only stable component. It might be linked to the ubiquitous mtDNA U5 (and Y-haplogroup I), found in all Mesolithic Europeans and absorbed by Neolithic farmers too. Nowadays U5 is most common in the Baltic region. I would think that this admixture was named Baltic because U5 genes survived best in this region, not because the Baltic was the source region (which it certainly wasn't since northern Europe was under ice until the end of the Würm glaciation 10,000 years ago).
    Why are not the halderstadt and kasdorf farmer samples who are over 1000 years older than the R1's from Haak paper, and found in BB and CW lands, not taken into account here?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    From Polako """"Btw, when I use the K15 output to model the Yamnaya I get 50/50 Samara_HG/Tabassaran. Not really seeing the Armenian/Iraqi Jew connection yet.""""
    + + + +
    The information from Estonian Biocenter http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/
    GS000018396-Tabas17 (Tabasarans, Dagestan_Makhachkala) Z2106 * (Z2106 +, but Z2109-, Z2108-, CTS7763-, CTS8966-). It is the most remote sample Z2106 + at the moment.

    GS000018404-Avar9 (Avars, Dagestan_Gergebil) Z2103 * The sample is positive for all SNPs of level Z2103 +
    but negative for all known subclades L277-, L584- and Z2106-!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    My Eurogenes K15, Dodecad K21b results for comparison.


    Eurogenes K15
    Population
    North_Sea 4.11%
    Atlantic 0.32%
    Baltic 3.16%
    Eastern_Euro 5.35%
    West_Med 4.67%
    West_Asian 35.01%
    East_Med 32.36%
    Red_Sea 5.33%
    South_Asian 7.54%
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 1.35%
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African -
    Sub-Saharan 0.81%


    Dodecad K12b
    Population
    Gedrosia 26.51%
    Siberian 0.55%
    Northwest_African -
    Southeast_Asian 0.66%
    Atlantic_Med 8.46%
    North_European 6.41%
    South_Asian 1.33%
    East_African 0.19%
    Southwest_Asian 14.49%
    East_Asian 0.09%
    Caucasus 40.74%
    Sub_Saharan 0.57%


    Dodecad Globe13
    Population
    Amerindian 2.16%
    East_Asian -
    African 0.49%
    North European 4.9%
    Southwest Asian 18.2%
    Mediterranean 20.9%
    West Asian 49.23%
    South_Asian 4.12%


    I also score ~8% "South Asian" like Yamna. Another proof that this is Gedrosia.

    I score ~25% less West Asian in this Eurogenes calculator compared to Dodecad K7,K10a, K12b, Globe13 etc.

    I score almost twice as much "North European" components in comparison to K12b or Globe13.

    Seems like Eurogenes k15 is among the calculators with least "West Asian" scores and most "North Euro centered" one.
    "West Asian" is not always West Asian and "North Euro" not always North European.
    Last edited by Alan; 06-03-15 at 23:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Why are not the halderstadt and kasdorf farmer samples who are over 1000 years older than the R1's from Haak paper, and found in BB and CW lands, not taken into account here?
    I don't know. Davidski (aka Polako) ran the samples in his K15 calculator. I didn't.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Seems like Euro. k15 is among the calculators with least "West Asian" scores visible and most "North Eurcentric" one.
    So "West Asian" is not always West Asian and "North Euro" not always North European.
    Well, obviously these labels describe their maximum frequencies today. But the 'North Sea' admixture may not have been found in Northwest Europe until R1b arrived there 4500-4000 years ago. The North Sea, West Asian and South Asian admixtures found among northern Europeans today actually came from the Pontic Steppe, not from any of these three regions. That ought to put things in perspective.

    In your case, I wouldn't be surprised if some of your Baltic and North Sea admixtures are a relic of the Neolithic R1b cattle herders who lived around Kurdistan. Some moved to the steppe, but others remained in West Asia, while yet others (V88) moved to Africa. But of course some Baltic and North Sea could also have come through Central Asia via the Iranian R1a-Z93.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 04-03-15 at 09:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Well, obviously these labels describe their maximum frequencies today. But the 'North Sea' admixture may not have been found in Northwest Europe until R1b arrived there 4500-4000 years ago. The North Sea, West Asian and South Asian admixtures found among northern Europeans today actually came from the Pontic Steppe, not from any of these three regions. That ought to put things in perspective.

    In your case, I wouldn't be surprised if your Baltic and North Sea admixtures are a relic of the Neolithic R1b cattle herders who lived around Kurdistan. Some moved to the steppe, but others remained in West Asia, while yet others (V88) moved to Africa.
    The North _sea component was present before the IE, among the SHG.
    Motala12 has 34,36 of it, and Ajv58 ans70 have More than 31% and 33 %.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    South Asian is a hybrid component in any sense. in some calculators Gedrosia gets broken up into "South Asian and some ither components. So I assume that this "South Asian" is actually a portion of Gedrosia. Mal'ta did also have this "South Asian" admixture which later turned out as Gedrosia. And some of the "European" in the Mal'ta paper turned out as Caucasus.

    As seen on results on Iranians in Dodecad v3 (~10% South Asian) vs k12b(30% Gedrosia) respectively. So it is fit to imagine the actual Gedrosia frequency three times higher.

    thats roughly 21% Gedrosia.

    Itwill beinteresting to see the Yamna DNA in k12b.
    I agree that the 'South Asian' is only one part of Gedrosia. The rest is probably hidden within 'West Asian'. If Gedrosia is exactly 'South Asian' + 'West Asian' (unlikely it is a perfect match though), the Yamna samples would have 22 to 29% of Gedrosian. 25% is a reasonable average, which corresponds to what is found in eastern Turkey, Armenia, Georgia and the Northeast Caucasus.

    English and Scottish people have 11% to 13% of Gedrosian respectively, presumably about half of the Yamna people. That makes sense since English people have 40% of Yamna DNA, and Scottish people 50% according to Haak et al. 2015.

    A high percentage of R1b isn't always a sign of high Yamna ancestry as demonstrated by the case of the Spaniards, and the Basques. Spaniards have only 25 to 30% of Yamna DNA despite having similar R1b levels as British people. Their Gedrosia ranges from 5% (Galicia) to 7.5% (Catalonia). The Basques reach 9%. So there is a correlation to the total R1b percentage in Iberia too, but the ratio isn't the same as in Britain because R1b arrived later and in a more diluted form in Iberia. At equal R1b frequency, the Spanish Gedrosian admixture is half that of the British, and so is their total Yamna admixture. However one looks at it, the Gedrosia to Yamna ratio remains stable though, about 1:4. This means that Yamna people did indeed have approximately 25% of Gedrosian admixture. Everything checks out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armoricain View Post
    The North _sea component was present before the IE, among the SHG.
    Motala12 has 34,36 of it, and Ajv58 ans70 have More than 31% and 33 %.
    I didn't check these samples. That means that the modern North Sea admixture is a compound of two different sources; about half from Mesolithic northern Europeans, and half from R1b Indo-Europeans. That also explains why the 'North Sea' can exceed 40% today, which is more than Yamna (25%) or Mesolithic Scandinavia (33%).

    Just like the Gedrosian can be split in West Asian and South Asian, 'North Sea' should be split in two (e.g. Northwest Europe + Caspian Sea).

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    I checked the population averages for K15 and the Saami of Finland also lack East Med, West Med, Red Sea, West Asian and South Asian, like Karelia and Samara. However they differ in a big way in that the Saami have 12% of Atlantic, where the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara had 0%. Motala12 (Mesolithic Sweden) also had the Atlantic admixture though.

    North Sea
    Atlantic
    Baltic
    Eastern_Euro
    Finnish Saami 17.7 12.2 20.1 27.0
    Mesolithic Karelia 23.7 0.1 18.9 40.4
    Mesolithic Samara 25.5 0 17.7 41.7
    Mesolithic Sweden 34.3 10.1 26.9 27.5

    Interestingly Mesolithic R1a and R1b from Russia both have more 'North Sea' than modern Saami, even though Mesolithic Scandinavians had the most 'North Sea' (about 33%). If percentages don't seem to add up, it's because the Saami have also 20% of Siberian admixture. If we take that out, we get:


    North Sea
    Atlantic
    Baltic
    Eastern_Euro
    Pre-Uralic Saami 22.1 15.3 25.1 33.8


    The Atlantic admixture might have come from a Mesolithic migration from Iberia, perhaps the one that brought mt-haplogroup V.

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    I don't have access to the Eurogenes population spreadsheets but I could access the Dodecad ones. Armenians in Globe 13 are 48.5 West Asian and 50 per cent what could be roughly called ENF like (20.6 SW Asian and 29.2 Med). Half of that is 24 for West Asian and 25 For ENF. How does that in any way conflict with the Reich Lab formulation that these people were half Armenian like?

    Genetiker has run the Yamma sample through Dodecad and MDLF. Very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree that the 'South Asian' is only one part of Gedrosia. The rest is probably hidden within 'West Asian'. If Gedrosia is exactly 'South Asian' + 'West Asian' (unlikely it is a perfect match though), the Yamna samples would have 22 to 29% of Gedrosian. 25% is a reasonable average, which corresponds to what is found in eastern Turkey, Armenia, Georgia and the Northeast Caucasus.

    English and Scottish people have 11% to 13% of Gedrosian respectively, presumably about half of the Yamna people. That makes sense since English people have 40% of Yamna DNA, and Scottish people 50% according to Haak et al. 2015.

    A high percentage of R1b isn't always a sign of high Yamna ancestry as demonstrated by the case of the Spaniards, and the Basques. Spaniards have only 25 to 30% of Yamna DNA despite having similar R1b levels as British people. Their Gedrosia ranges from 5% (Galicia) to 7.5% (Catalonia). The Basques reach 9%. So there is a correlation to the total R1b percentage in Iberia too, but the ratio isn't the same as in Britain because R1b arrived later and in a more diluted form in Iberia. At equal R1b frequency, the Spanish Gedrosian admixture is half that of the British, and so is their total Yamna admixture. However one looks at it, the Gedrosia to Yamna ratio remains stable though, about 1:4. This means that Yamna people did indeed have approximately 25% of Gedrosian admixture. Everything checks out.

    ~21% was just a low estimate thats why I edited my previous comment. I agree it is probably around ~25%. I don't think that Gedrosia is a hybrid component. contrary I think "South Asian" is one because South Asian can be divided into two extremely distinct groups. ANI which is West Eurasian and plots side by side with "West Asian", and ASI which is East Eurasian and plots next to Onge.
    Last edited by Alan; 04-03-15 at 06:34.

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