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Thread: Autosomal analysis of Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    There is no problem when professional geneticists refer to an Armenian like population, after having explained what it means. There isn't too much of a problem when amateurs refer to an Armenian like population. There is a problem when some amateurs assume that the "Armenian" (rather than "Armenian like") component must have come from a particular location because it's close to where modern Armenians live. I realize some people think the "Armenian like" component probably came from the Caucasus simply because the Caucasus is fairly close to Samara. But after looking at the archeological evidence, I've slowly come to the conclusion that the Armenian like portion of Yamnaya may have entered the steppe from the west, and I don't think calling the Middle Eastern originating influence in Yamnaya "Armenian like" should blind us to that possibility.

    I think you are actually having a reading comprehension problem. I have tried to explain a few times that it is not wrong to assume a component must have come from an area where modern Armenians live, if this signal is strong with whatever population of the Near East you replace them with. However that doesn't mean Armenians originate ultimately in the Near East and have not received any additional Yamna ancestry. It's just that this genes which connect Armenians to Yamna also occur in other Near Easterners who have absolutely nothing to do with Yamna, so therefore this must be a Near Eastern component.

    In the words of Dienekes. "If we assumed that this signal is actually Yamna showing up in Armenians, we wouldn't see the same signal in Iraqi Jews and even Bedouins."

    However if you are assuming that all Middle Easterners are partly descend of Yamna or at least a large portion of their genes might have come from somewhere outside the region. Than this might work.

    But than may I ask why is it reasonable to assume that a component, which was not found in any other ancient samples, might have originated somewhee else, but totally blend out or ignore the possibility that we will find EHG like ancestry in South_Central Asia and therefore this might have it's ultimate origin there?


    Back to the "Near Eastern" ancestry in Yamna. We know this kind of genes today peak in Southeastern Iran(Southwestern Asia), and get weaker in any directions. We know that this component is by some majority ENF.

    We know that there is no other component in South_Central Asia sharing close relationship to it (Gedrosia), but we know that it has a very close relationship to Caucasus. Therefore a logical conclusion would be, most of these both components origin must have emerged somewhere in close range to each other.

    I hope you could follow my bad English until here.


    So therefore it doesn't really matter for it's origin, which route this component took. Even if it went through South_Central Asia instead of Caucasus. It must have started somewhere were Caucasus was nearby and where it could have picked up most of it ENF ancestry.

    Of course there is still a possibility that this component emerged somewhere else. But the possibility for this is even weaker than the possibility WHG emerged somewhere outside Europe, because we have actual data from Europe, North Eurasia which rather refute the theory that this "Near Eastern" DNA in Yamna might have come from somewhere else, but no ancient data from Western or South_Central Asia which would yet refute the possibility that some of the "WHG" ancestry might have come from somewhere else.

    So I kinda feel it is one sided to speculate about the origin of a rather typical Western Asian component . But never come to the idea to do the same with the EHG like ancestry in Yamna. What if this EHG ancestry in Yamna came from somewhere else outside of North Eurasia_Russia?

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    And to finalize my statement here is the exact quote from Dienekes. For the case my arguments appear too amateurish.

    The WHG group has an Fst=0.086 with Armenians, but the LBK farmers have only 0.023. The EHG group has an Fst=0.067 with Armenians, but the Yamnaya steppe people have only 0.030. Someone might argue that it is the Armenians that are receiving genes from Europe, but the same pattern holds even for the Bedouins, for which admixture with Europeans seems far-fetched: 0.106 to 0.043 and 0.093 to 0.060.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2015/02/...europeans.html

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    I didn't say anything about Yamnaya in Middle Eastern populations. I said that we shouldn't assume that the ancient Middle Eastern part of Yamnaya came from where modern Armenia is just because some people are calling that ancient Middle Eastern portion of the Yamnaya mix Armenian like. Armenians are to a considerable extent ancient Middle Eastern like but that doesn't really tell us why Yamnaya was partly ancient Middle Eastern like. That ancient Middle Eastern influence could have reached the Yamnaya from Anatolia by way of the Balkans and Ukraine, which is why I don't think it should be called Armenian like until the route of transmission can be clarified. And you seem to me to be using exactly the kind of sloppy logic I was warning against.
    Last edited by Aberdeen; 13-03-15 at 09:23.

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    @Aberdeen

    But that question should have been answered already by the HAAK,Reich papers.
    It is unlikely that the "Near Eastern" portion came from West (via Europe) because it was atypical for European farmers (Yamna had close to zero EEF) and was more of the late Neolithic highlander type, which genetically evolved with ANE admixture after some ENF had already left for Europe(that doesn't mean that pastoralism didn't exist earlier, just that it changed genetically in the late Bronze Age).

    The Farmer DNA in the Balkans was pred. EEF even up until the Iron Age.
    Thats the point that makes a Balkan gateway unlikely and direct through Caucasus or even Central Asia more likely. However we could be all wrong and in future some yet unknown pastoralist population turns up in the Balkans.

    But I thought that was already a wide known thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    @Aberdeen

    But that question should have been answered already by the HAAK,Reich papers.
    It is unlikely that the "Near Eastern" portion came from West (via Europe) because it was atypical for European farmers (Yamna had close to zero EEF) and was more of the late Neolithic highlander type (which evolved with ANE admixture after some ENF had already left for Europe).

    The Farmer DNA in the Balkans was pred. EEF even up until the Iron Age.
    Thats the point that makes a Balkan gateway unlikely and direct through Caucasus or even Central Asia more likely. However we could be all wrong and in future some yet unknown pastoralist population turns up in the Balkans.

    But I thought that was already a wide known thing.
    The fact that the Middle Eastern component of Yamnaya doesn't show up in admixtures as EEF (which is something quite specific) does not prove that it could not have come from Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    The fact that the Middle Eastern component of Yamnaya doesn't show up in admixtures as EEF (which is something quite specific) does not prove that it could not have come from Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.
    It actually does. If we asume that Cucuteni_Trypilian culture is related to other farming cultures of Europe. Than it should show EEF type farmer DNA just like all the other farming cultures there. Even Iron Age Balkan farmer DNA was typically EEF. There is not much room left.

    I remember Reich (not sure if it was Eurogenes quoting him or his own opinion) said the fact that the farmer DNA is typical for modern Near Easterners. Speaks for a direct introduction from the Near East and not a detour through Europe.

    The only possibility left for a CT origin of this farmer DNA, is to assume that this culture was a rather recent wave of farmer migrants from the Near East, who differed from the early Neolithic farmers who reached Europe earlier.
    Last edited by Alan; 13-03-15 at 22:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    @Aberdeen

    But that question should have been answered already by the HAAK,Reich papers.
    It is unlikely that the "Near Eastern" portion came from West (via Europe) because it was atypical for European farmers (Yamna had close to zero EEF) and was more of the late Neolithic highlander type, which genetically evolved with ANE admixture after some ENF had already left for Europe(that doesn't mean that pastoralism didn't exist earlier, just that it changed genetically in the late Bronze Age).

    The Farmer DNA in the Balkans was pred. EEF even up until the Iron Age.
    Thats the point that makes a Balkan gateway unlikely and direct through Caucasus or even Central Asia more likely. However we could be all wrong and in future some yet unknown pastoralist population turns up in the Balkans.

    But I thought that was already a wide known thing.
    The EEF found in germany in the haak paper must surely only have come form north of the Zargos mountains, maybe south-caucasus, because no J or E farmers have been found in Germany.
    unless they ( J and E ) where happy to stay in the levant and arabian peninsula
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    just a point (maybe someone already said it?)
    Yamnaya of Samara are perhaps not the first Yamnaya culture people? Not fully typical? Target and not source? it could explain the break between their Y-R1b and our Y-R1b? (I avow it destroys one of my ancient hypothesis about Y-R1b road towards West, at first sight)
    apart: some autosomes plottings concerning Unetice are interesting: one shows 1 Unetice man among the Cordeds, 1 other man among BBs, the most numerous in the middle! it confirms the statute of new osmosis culture for Unetice (as said Henri HUBERT and others archeologists)
    nos vad deoc'h oll!

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    The average of the 7 Bell Beaker samples is close to South_Dutch on the Eurogenes K15_population_averages spreadsheet:

    Population Bell Beaker Average South_Dutch
    North_Sea 30.75714 29.95333
    Atlantic 27.08 26.93
    Baltic 12.53571 10.5
    Eastern_Euro 10.63571 9.053333
    West_Med 9.06 11.43333
    West_Asian 5.017143 4.74
    East_Med 0.732857 4.516667
    Red_Sea 0.29 1.396667
    South_Asian 0.925714 0.673333
    Southeast_Asian 0.01 0.116667
    Siberian 0.605714 0.316667
    Amerindian 1.814286 0.153333
    Oceanian 0.131429 0.043333
    Northeast_African 0.081429 0.113333
    Sub-Saharan 0.317143 0.06

    Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more to modern Western Europeans than we give them credit for.

    The Bell Beakers also carried a bit of the Siberian component. One was 2.43% and another was 1.51%. This is very uncommon from what I've seen of Ancient DNA of Western Eurasians to have this much Siberian. I have a little over 1% percent Siberian in Eurogenes K15, which is a complete mystery to me. And I have zero Southeast Asian, Amerindian and Oceanian there, and just 6.84% Eastern Euro. Maybe much of my Siberian has been floating around in Western Europe since the Bell Beakers - or maybe it wouldn't be so high if I got more markers tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    The average of the 7 Bell Beaker samples is close to South_Dutch on the Eurogenes K15_population_averages spreadsheet:

    Population Bell Beaker Average South_Dutch
    North_Sea 30.75714 29.95333
    Atlantic 27.08 26.93
    Baltic 12.53571 10.5
    Eastern_Euro 10.63571 9.053333
    West_Med 9.06 11.43333
    West_Asian 5.017143 4.74
    East_Med 0.732857 4.516667
    Red_Sea 0.29 1.396667
    South_Asian 0.925714 0.673333
    Southeast_Asian 0.01 0.116667
    Siberian 0.605714 0.316667
    Amerindian 1.814286 0.153333
    Oceanian 0.131429 0.043333
    Northeast_African 0.081429 0.113333
    Sub-Saharan 0.317143 0.06

    Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more to modern Western Europeans than we give them credit for.

    The Bell Beakers also carried a bit of the Siberian component. One was 2.43% and another was 1.51%. This is very uncommon from what I've seen of Ancient DNA of Western Eurasians to have this much Siberian. I have a little over 1% percent Siberian in Eurogenes K15, which is a complete mystery to me. And I have zero Southeast Asian, Amerindian and Oceanian there, and just 6.84% Eastern Euro. Maybe much of my Siberian has been floating around in Western Europe since the Bell Beakers - or maybe it wouldn't be so high if I got more markers tested.

    I agree for the most concerning components %s - THIS BB AVERAGE shows a bit more central asian elements, -
    the question for me is: what is BB people? at what time AND WHERE? we credit what was firstable a small number of pioneers fo the populating of all Western Europe: but I suppose the BBs we find in Germany are partly acculturated tribes and not the genuine previous prospectors - they mixed with local people and took their females in more than a place - the homogeneization in Central Europe between Atlantic populations and Central Europe populations was begun, I think, during the mMegalithic,

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    I agree for the most concerning components %s - THIS BB AVERAGE shows a bit more central asian elements, -
    the question for me is: what is BB people? at what time AND WHERE? we credit what was firstable a small number of pioneers fo the populating of all Western Europe: but I suppose the BBs we find in Germany are partly acculturated tribes and not the genuine previous prospectors - they mixed with local people and took their females in more than a place - the homogeneization in Central Europe between Atlantic populations and Central Europe populations was begun, I think, during the mMegalithic,
    After seeing the Eurogenes K15 breakdown of the 8,000 ybp R1b1* from El Trocs, Spain, which I posted on the first page of this thread, and seeing how starkly different it is from other ancient R1b's, I find what you said much easier to believe - perhaps especially with R1b's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    After seeing the Eurogenes K15 breakdown of the 8,000 ybp R1b1* from El Trocs, Spain, which I posted on the first page of this thread, and seeing how starkly different it is from other ancient R1b's, I find what you said much easier to believe - perhaps especially with R1b's.
    As Maciamo said, there is not really a BB culture. There is only lose cultural contact between the Iberian BB and Central European BB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more to modern Western Europeans than we give them credit for.
    If LP was at very low frequencies and then increased dramatically to 70%+ along the Atlantic coast then might whoever had LP initially have benefited from a huge founder effect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    It actually does. If we asume that Cucuteni_Trypilian culture is related to other farming cultures of Europe. Than it should show EEF type farmer DNA just like all the other farming cultures there. Even Iron Age Balkan farmer DNA was typically EEF. There is not much room left.

    I remember Reich (not sure if it was Eurogenes quoting him or his own opinion) said the fact that the farmer DNA is typical for modern Near Easterners. Speaks for a direct introduction from the Near East and not a detour through Europe.

    The only possibility left for a CT origin of this farmer DNA, is to assume that this culture was a rather recent wave of farmer migrants from the Near East, who differed from the early Neolithic farmers who reached Europe earlier.
    But I'm not assuming that Cucuteni-Trypilian culture is the same genetically as other farming cultures in Europe, such as LBK. I'm assuming that it could have been formed by a somewhat different wave of Middle Eastern farmers mixing with a specific group of European hunter gatherers. We can't know for certain at present, it's just an idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    As Maciamo said, there is not really a BB culture. There is only lose cultural contact between the Iberian BB and Central European BB.
    What do you think of Vadim's K14 model for this topic...........it seems to me he has found something

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    As Maciamo said, there is not really a BB culture. There is only lose cultural contact between the Iberian BB and Central European BB.
    And that is based on what evidence?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I've been trying to model NorthWestern European populations from the Eurogenes 15 spreadsheet as a combination of the Bell Beaker and Hinxton genomes from their Eurogenes 15 results.

    The two Celtic Hinxton samples were said to be Hinxton 1 and Hinxton 4, so I averaged them; the three Anglo-Saxon samples were said to be Hinxton 2, 3 and 5, so I averaged them; and I also averaged the seven Bell Beaker samples. I first weighted them as 1/4 Hinxton Celts, 1/4 Hinxton Anglo-Saxons, and 1/2 Bell Beakers, and got quite similar results to the SouthEast English results. I then weighted them with equal weights (1/3 each) and the results looked perhaps even closer the SouthEast English:


    Hinxton 1 and 4 Average 37.83 29.635 10.16 9.215 6.555 4.445 0.005 0.705 0.95 0.02 0.06 0.005 0 0.15 0.255
    Hinxton 2, 3 and 5 Average 41.37333 28.59333 8.85 9.483333 6.163333 3.236667 0.306667 0.28 0.36 0.233333 0 0.033333 0.133333 0.273333 0.686667
    Bell Beaker Average 30.75714 27.08 12.53571 10.63571 9.06 5.017143 0.732857 0.29 0.925714 0.01 0.605714 1.814286 0.131429 0.081429 0.317143
    Southeast_English 35.52 29.86 9.89 8.36 8.77 3.35 2.5 0.33 0.58 0.03 0.05 0.35 0.31 0.06 0.03
    .25, .25, .5 proportions 35.1794 28.09708 11.02036 9.99244 7.709583 4.428988 0.444345 0.39125 0.790357 0.068333 0.317857 0.916726 0.099048 0.146548 0.393988
    .33, .33, .33 (equal) proportions 36.65349 28.43611 10.51524 9.778016 7.259444 4.232937 0.348175 0.425 0.745238 0.087778 0.221905 0.61754 0.088254 0.168254 0.419603


    I then did a linear regression analysis modeling different NorthWestern European populations with the three averaged ancient samples, and got the following results:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    Southeast_English 0.992643 0.09091 0.586855 0.32388 -0.01117
    Southwest_English 0.987226 0.291528 0.172233 0.548788 -0.0828
    South_Dutch 0.977876 0.015984 0.069705 0.863734 0.337549
    Irish 0.996459 -0.23411 1.134745 0.112403 -0.08599
    West_Scottish 0.997614 0.035514 0.883953 0.092273 -0.077

    They all seemed to be very good fits, with the West-Scottish having the highest R-square value. The South Dutch had the largest coefficient for the Bell Beakers; the Irish had the largest coefficient for the Hinxton Celts; and the SouthWest English had the largest coefficient for the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons, although its Bell Beaker coefficient was higher. And the Hinxton Celt Average had the largest coefficient for the SouthEast English.
    Last edited by JS Bach; 28-03-15 at 01:58. Reason: Posted Bell Beaker averages incorrectly - didn't affect the results, though

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I've been trying other populations from Eurogenes 15 with this model, and here are a couple more:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    Danish 0.995665 0.57223 -0.02596 0.452749 0.006023
    North_Dutch 0.995606 0.672777 -0.1185 0.450742 -0.03299
    These two seem to fit the model very well, and come out as a mixture of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons and the Bell Beakers, with a bit less of the Bell Beakers. Maybe they correspond to the Angle, Frisian, Jute and Danish Viking invasions of England. The West Scottish and Irish come out as the opposite, with the same components but the large majority being the Hinxton Celts.


    Now here are the Germans:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    North_German 0.991923 -0.19132 0.663382 0.505257 0.151681
    West_German 0.962378 1.570118 -1.66584 0.991526 0.692574
    East_German 0.965777 0.686971 -1.81043 2.148594 -0.1685
    Looking at the North Germans, I thought maybe the Saxons brought over a Hinxton Celtic-Bell Beaker mix. (The South Dutch and French were also high in Bell Beakers) But then, the West and East Germans had more of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon component and less of the Hinxton Celts -- although their models didn't fit as well.


    Now for the Scandinavians:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    West_Norwegian 0.990316 2.251309 -1.97525 0.757186 -0.22386
    Norwegian 0.986636 2.07966 -2.0498 0.991973 -0.14615
    Icelandic 0.993988 0.742832 -0.2822 0.58937 -0.33384
    Orcadian 0.998015 0.547285 0.498763 -0.06765 0.144096
    Swedish 0.970309 1.96859 -1.97326 1.019808 -0.10206
    The Norwegians, Icelanders and Swedes had lots of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons plus some Bell Beakers, and were low in Hinxton Celts. However, the intercepts were higher, thus suggesting additional components and confounding the results more. The Orcadians had a more even blend of the two Hinxton groups and had less of the Bell Beakers, which made sense to me, seeing how different from the rest of Britain they come out as on other genetic population measures. I don't see much evidence against them being largely a mixture of the West Norwegian and West Scottish samples. All the other populations I tried had lower R-squared values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I've been trying other populations from Eurogenes 15 with this model, and here are a couple more:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    Danish 0.995665 0.57223 -0.02596 0.452749 0.006023
    North_Dutch 0.995606 0.672777 -0.1185 0.450742 -0.03299
    These two seem to fit the model very well, and come out as a mixture of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons and the Bell Beakers, with a bit less of the Bell Beakers. Maybe they correspond to the Angle, Frisian, Jute and Danish Viking invasions of England. The West Scottish and Irish come out as the opposite, with the same components but the large majority being the Hinxton Celts.


    Now here are the Germans:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    North_German 0.991923 -0.19132 0.663382 0.505257 0.151681
    West_German 0.962378 1.570118 -1.66584 0.991526 0.692574
    East_German 0.965777 0.686971 -1.81043 2.148594 -0.1685
    Looking at the North Germans, I thought maybe the Saxons brought over a Hinxton Celtic-Bell Beaker mix. (The South Dutch and French were also high in Bell Beakers) But then, the West and East Germans had more of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon component and less of the Hinxton Celts -- although their models didn't fit as well.


    Now for the Scandinavians:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    West_Norwegian 0.990316 2.251309 -1.97525 0.757186 -0.22386
    Norwegian 0.986636 2.07966 -2.0498 0.991973 -0.14615
    Icelandic 0.993988 0.742832 -0.2822 0.58937 -0.33384
    Orcadian 0.998015 0.547285 0.498763 -0.06765 0.144096
    Swedish 0.970309 1.96859 -1.97326 1.019808 -0.10206
    The Norwegians, Icelanders and Swedes had lots of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons plus some Bell Beakers, and were low in Hinxton Celts. However, the intercepts were higher, thus suggesting additional components and confounding the results more. The Orcadians had a more even blend of the two Hinxton groups and had less of the Bell Beakers, which made sense to me, seeing how different from the rest of Britain they come out as on other genetic population measures. I don't see much evidence against them being largely a mixture of the West Norwegian and West Scottish samples. All the other populations I tried had lower R-squared values.
    interesting ty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    If LP was at very low frequencies and then increased dramatically to 70%+ along the Atlantic coast then might whoever had LP initially have benefited from a huge founder effect?
    I'm interested but don't understand well here - could you tell me what you call LP please (I missed something?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm interested but don't understand well here - could you tell me what you call LP please (I missed something?)
    He means lactase persistence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm interested but don't understand well here - could you tell me what you call LP please (I missed something?)
    Yes, LP = milk drinking.

    It was assumed previously that either neolithic farmers or steppe pastoralists brought it to the Atlantic fringe in sizable frequencies and it expanded from there but so far it's not being found among the farmers at all and only in very low frequencies among the steppenwolfs (IIRC one corded ware and one BB and a group in Iberia near the Basques).

    So if, wherever it came from, it only existed at frequencies of c. 1% until it arrived at the Atlantic coast and then dramatically expanded along the Atlantic coast then either it happened fast or slow. If it happened fast then that could imply a very dramatic founder effect.

    So possibly not a migration wave in itself but 1% of a wave that had a lucky gene (for that environment) which led to them having a higher TFR than their neighbors.

    This is in response to JS Bach's point

    Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more to modern Western Europeans than we give them credit for.
    If the frequency of LP among the people who arrived at the Atlantic coast was tiny, 1-2% for example, then a lot of the homogeneity of western Europe might be because of that 1-2% founder effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Yes, LP = milk drinking.

    It was assumed previously that either neolithic farmers or steppe pastoralists brought it to the Atlantic fringe in sizable frequencies and it expanded from there but so far it's not being found among the farmers at all and only in very low frequencies among the steppenwolfs (IIRC one corded ware and one BB and a group in Iberia near the Basques).


    So if, wherever it came from, it only existed at frequencies of c. 1% until it arrived at the Atlantic coast and then dramatically expanded along the Atlantic coast then either it happened fast or slow. If it happened fast then that could imply a very dramatic founder effect.

    So possibly not a migration wave in itself but 1% of a wave that had a lucky gene (for that environment) which led to them having a higher TFR than their neighbors.

    This is in response to JS Bach's point



    If the frequency of LP among the people who arrived at the Atlantic coast was tiny, 1-2% for example, then a lot of the homogeneity of western Europe might be because of that 1-2% founder effect.
    Thanks Greying Wanderer
    that said, I stay very often amazed in front of these founder effects - except for a very advantageous gene submitted to strong straightforwards selection pressure, I consider it as very unexpected (not "impossible") event in already well populated regions - we have to imagine empty regions but Atlantic regions were rather the opposite of that I think



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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks Greying Wanderer
    that said, I stay very often amazed in front of these founder effects - except for a very advantageous gene submitted to strong straightforwards selection pressure, I consider it as very unexpected (not "impossible") event in already well populated regions - we have to imagine empty regions but Atlantic regions were rather the opposite of that I think
    Yes it does seem very dramatic but the fact remains *if* the rate of LP among ancient dna remains at the 1-2% mark then there must (?) be a dramatic founder effect in populations that are now 90%+.

    edit:

    for example was Niall (or his wife)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages

    particularly tough or particularly LP?

    edit:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/...-males-in.html
    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 29-03-15 at 22:43.

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    I post that here, even if it could be placed in an anthropology thread -
    we are sepaking in more than a thread of the affinities of Yamanya people - maybe are you aware of it but I mention here the Aleksey KAZARNITSKY

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