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Thread: Autosomal analysis of Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ... KAZARNITSKY 's paper (sorry):On the Bilological Distinctness of the Pit Grave (Yamnaya) People in the Northwestern Caspian - Cranial Evidence
    as very often I am not fully statisfied by this kind of paper where no grouping typology is proposed, only means and distances with principal composants (lack of precious details): the new mode in anthropology - but there are some things spite that:
    shortly, the paper shows the Yamnaya Culture sharing population were not homogenous, at least the N-W Caspian (Kalmykia) one is well distinct from the more northern and largely spred other Pit Grave ones, owing to the Neolithic (but not commonly 'mediter') people of Lower Dniepr region more than to any other predecessors, and well distinct too from the Armenian and Maykop contemporaneous populations, spite a "Pan-Armenian" paper we red sometime ago -
    some other good points can be obtained from this paper concerning the links of Sredny Stog and Khvalinsk with a different population of the Mesolithic (resurgence) and with other Pit Grave culture sites (# Kalmykia) and the demic changes in this region (N-Caucasus Pontic steppes, and even more noerthernly) between Mesolithic and Neolithic (>> 2500 BC) -
    so what we say (autosomes, Y-DNA, mt-DNA) about Yamnaya has to be cautiously looked at according to sites -

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The EEF found in germany in the haak paper must surely only have come form north of the Zargos mountains, maybe south-caucasus, because no J or E farmers have been found in Germany.
    unless they ( J and E ) where happy to stay in the levant and arabian peninsula

    answering SILE and ALAN
    we lack big enough samples of Late Neolithic people in Eastern (and Western) Balkans to be sure of our thoughts -(or I ignore it) - but I think the metals ages (early enough in E-Balkans) saw a new wave of southerners partly different from the "danubian" and "cardial" first EEF, passed there across Anatolia but coming from farther East- it would be the cause of 'west-asian-c

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    sorry-
    it could be the cause of 'west-asian-caucasus' form poor for 'gedrosia', and present today in Southeastern Europe when it was absent during the plain Neolithic there - but it does not evocate a Yamnaya nor any other I-Ean colonization through North the Caspian See, at first sight - for language I don't risk any bet -

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    The autosomal dna for the R1b-U106 individual who lived 3736 years ago on the Southern tip of the Swedish peninsula is now available. This is the oldest U106 sample I’m aware of. Today U106 peaks in North Holland, if I’m not mistaken, and is pretty common in England as well – where I believe my U106 patrilineal ancestors came from.

    The Eurogenes K15 results gave me some surprises:

    98.44% of the genes came from the first 5 of the 15 categories: North Sea, Atlantic, Baltic, Eastern Euro, and West Med. And another 1.07% was South Asian. This was like the older Motala 12, Loschbour and La Brana 1 individuals in that way, although with different proportions of those components and the older samples didn’t have any of the West Med component, which today peaks in Sardinians.

    There was no West Asian component. I thought there would be some Yamna / Corded Ware influence there, thus leaving at least a trace of the West Asian component, but no there wasn’t any! In the table below I averaged the seven Yamna samples and 4 Corded Ware samples from a Eurogenes K15 spreadsheet and got 18.85% West Asian for the Yamna, and 11.2% West Asian for the Corded Ware samples. And the Bell Beaker average even had 5.02% West Asian. The Hinxton Celt average (samples 1 and 4) had 4.45% West Asian, which was more than the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon average (samples 2, 3 and 5) of 3.24. Todays Swedes have 2.54% of the West Asian component. How did this Swedish U106 guy miss out on all the fun?

    There was no East Med component either, of which today Swedes and SouthEast English have 1.06% and 2.5% of, respectively. Many ancient European farmers had this component. Stuttgart had 25.91% of it, and Gokhem 2 had 4.66%.

    This makes me think this U106 guy may not have spoken a Germanic language or have had a Norse religion. I suspect those things probably came with the West Asian component. Although I think he may have had smaller parts of those things. But if that were the case, what Y-haplogroup did those conquering tribes have? Were they R1a, and then over time some leaders became U106 and I1?


    Eurogenes_K15
    Population
    North_Sea Atlantic Baltic Eastern_Euro West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian Southeast_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_African Sub-Saharan
    U106_Southern_
    Sweden_3736_ybp
    39.93% 18.64% 15.82% 16.41% 7.64% 0 0 0 1.07% 0 0 0 0.12% 0 0.36%
    Swedish 39.32 22.58 15.55 10.95 5.23 2.54 1.06 0.3 0.52 0.2 0.39 0.49 0.4 0.2 0.28
    Norwegian 39.74 23.47 13.26 11.48 6.36 2.24 0.8 0.14 0.81 0.08 0.5 0.72 0.32 0.06 0.04
    North_Swedish 36.66 21 15.78 15.37 4.02 1.35 0.68 0.34 0.69 0.55 2.21 0.64 0.62 0.07 0.03
    Motala12 34.36 10.06 26.87 27.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.97 0.25 0 0
    Loschbour 29.69 29.57 31.49 8.31 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.93 0 0
    La_Brana-1 29.05 27.26 27.78 14.1 0.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.8 0 0
    Gokhem2 16.74 27.71 3.78 0 45.34 0 4.66 0.78 0 0 0 0 0.98 0.01 0
    Bell_Beaker_Avg 30.76 27.08 12.54 10.64 9.06 5.02 0.73 0.29 0.93 0.01 0.61 1.81 0.13 0.08 0.32
    Corded_Ware_Avg 28.44 19.01 15.38 19.30 0.00 11.20 0.00 0.00 3.45 0.00 0.12 2.07 0.43 0.62 0.00
    Yamnaya_Average 24.73 4.05 13.05 28.68 0.00 18.85 0.00 0.00 5.89 0.00 0.00 4.57 0.03 0.00 0.15
    Hinxton_AS_Avg 41.37 28.59 8.85 9.48 6.16 3.24 0.31 0.28 0.36 0.23 0.00 0.03 0.13 0.27 0.69
    Hinxton_Celt_Avg 37.83 29.64 10.16 9.22 6.56 4.45 0.01 0.71 0.95 0.02 0.06 0.01 0.00 0.15 0.26
    Southeast_English 35.52 29.86 9.89 8.36 8.77 3.35 2.50 0.33 0.58 0.03 0.05 0.35 0.31 0.06 0.03
    North_Dutch 37.63 27.09 12.32 9.19 6.80 3.69 1.51 0.77 0.37 0.04 0.08 0.21 0.20 0.08 0.04
    Ust'-Ishim 0 11.24 0 3.08 4.82 0 0 3.36 30.76 15.25 2.02 2.2 10.96 10.08 6.22
    Kostenki_14 18.81 12.39 6.52 9.71 9.77 0 0 5.7 17.42 1.33 0.66 4.74 5.11 5.19 2.66
    Mal'ta 15.91 0 6.54 38.02 0 0 0 0 20.31 0 0 18.62 0.12 0 0.47
    Last edited by JS Bach; 28-06-15 at 17:51. Reason: changed "Basques" to "Sardinians"

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    If I may add another thing: this Eurogenes K15 West Asian component seems to have appeared out of nowhere. I haven’t seen it in hardly any ancient samples that are dated before Yamnaya. And it's missing in Ust'-Ishim, Kostenki_14 and the Mal'ta boy. This is similar for the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b and to a lesser extent the West Asian component in Dodecad V3. I wonder if there was some isolated population (probably carrying some forms of y-dna R1) that then had a big population explosion with the Yamnaya people? -- Or maybe it will show up in ancient dna samples from parts of West- and Central Asia that we have yet to sample from.

    Here are the Dodecad: K12b and V3 results for the R1b-U106 3,736 ybp Swedish fellow from Southern Sweden. He has none of the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b, but he does have a substantial portion (3.83%) of the West Asian component from Dodecad V3:

    Dodecad K12b Dodecad V3
    Gedrosia 10.01% East_European 16.69%
    Siberian - West_European 60.70%
    Northwest_African - Mediterranean 16.06%
    Southeast_Asian - Neo_African 0.61%
    Atlantic_Med 34.45% West_Asian 3.83%
    North_European 54.19% South_Asian 1.35%
    South_Asian 0.47% Northeast_Asian -
    East_African - Southeast_Asian 0.20%
    Southwest_Asian - East_African -
    East_Asian - Southwest_Asian -
    Caucasus - Northwest_African -
    Sub_Saharan 0.86% Palaeo_African 0.58%
    Last edited by JS Bach; 28-06-15 at 06:52. Reason: Added the Dodecad results, and fixed up a clause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    If I may add another thing: this Eurogenes K15 West Asian component seems to have appeared out of nowhere. I haven’t seen it in hardly any ancient samples that are dated before Yamnaya. And it's missing in Ust'-Ishim, Kostenki_14 and the Mal'ta boy. This is similar for the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b and to a lesser extent the West Asian component in Dodecad V3. I wonder if there was some isolated population (probably carrying some forms of y-dna R1) that then had a big population explosion with the Yamnaya people? -- Or maybe it will show up in ancient dna samples from parts of West- and Central Asia that we have yet to sample from.

    Here are the Dodecad: K12b and V3 results for the R1b-U106 3,736 ybp Swedish fellow from Southern Sweden. He has none of the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b, but he does have a substantial portion (3.83%) of the West Asian component from Dodecad V3:

    Dodecad K12b Dodecad V3
    Gedrosia 10.01% East_European 16.69%
    Siberian - West_European 60.70%
    Northwest_African - Mediterranean 16.06%
    Southeast_Asian - Neo_African 0.61%
    Atlantic_Med 34.45% West_Asian 3.83%
    North_European 54.19% South_Asian 1.35%
    South_Asian 0.47% Northeast_Asian -
    East_African - Southeast_Asian 0.20%
    Southwest_Asian - East_African -
    East_Asian - Southwest_Asian -
    Caucasus - Northwest_African -
    Sub_Saharan 0.86% Palaeo_African 0.58%
    in this two runs, the (right side) West-Asian is I think a bit of 'gedrosia', the other 'gedrosia' being dispatched among East Euro and South Asian?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    The autosomal dna for the R1b-U106 individual who lived 3736 years ago on the Southern tip of the Swedish peninsula is now available. This is the oldest U106 sample I’m aware of. Today U106 peaks in North Holland, if I’m not mistaken, and is pretty common in England as well – where I believe my U106 patrilineal ancestors came from.

    The Eurogenes K15 results gave me some surprises:

    98.44% of the genes came from the first 5 of the 15 categories: North Sea, Atlantic, Baltic, Eastern Euro, and West Med. And another 1.07% was South Asian. This was like the older Motala 12, Loschbour and La Brana 1 individuals in that way, although with different proportions of those components and the older samples didn’t have any of the West Med component, which today peaks in Sardinians.

    There was no West Asian component. I thought there would be some Yamna / Corded Ware influence there, thus leaving at least a trace of the West Asian component, but no there wasn’t any! In the table below I averaged the seven Yamna samples and 4 Corded Ware samples from a Eurogenes K15 spreadsheet and got 18.85% West Asian for the Yamna, and 11.2% West Asian for the Corded Ware samples. And the Bell Beaker average even had 5.02% West Asian. The Hinxton Celt average (samples 1 and 4) had 4.45% West Asian, which was more than the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon average (samples 2, 3 and 5) of 3.24. Todays Swedes have 2.54% of the West Asian component. How did this Swedish U106 guy miss out on all the fun?

    There was no East Med component either, of which today Swedes and SouthEast English have 1.06% and 2.5% of, respectively. Many ancient European farmers had this component. Stuttgart had 25.91% of it, and Gokhem 2 had 4.66%.

    This makes me think this U106 guy may not have spoken a Germanic language or have had a Norse religion. I suspect those things probably came with the West Asian component. Although I think he may have had smaller parts of those things. But if that were the case, what Y-haplogroup did those conquering tribes have? Were they R1a, and then over time some leaders became U106 and I1?


    Eurogenes_K15
    Population
    North_Sea Atlantic Baltic Eastern_Euro West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian Southeast_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_African Sub-Saharan
    U106_Southern_
    Sweden_3736_ybp
    39.93% 18.64% 15.82% 16.41% 7.64% 0 0 0 1.07% 0 0 0 0.12% 0 0.36%
    Swedish 39.32 22.58 15.55 10.95 5.23 2.54 1.06 0.3 0.52 0.2 0.39 0.49 0.4 0.2 0.28
    Norwegian 39.74 23.47 13.26 11.48 6.36 2.24 0.8 0.14 0.81 0.08 0.5 0.72 0.32 0.06 0.04
    North_Swedish 36.66 21 15.78 15.37 4.02 1.35 0.68 0.34 0.69 0.55 2.21 0.64 0.62 0.07 0.03
    Motala12 34.36 10.06 26.87 27.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.97 0.25 0 0
    Loschbour 29.69 29.57 31.49 8.31 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.93 0 0
    La_Brana-1 29.05 27.26 27.78 14.1 0.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.8 0 0
    Gokhem2 16.74 27.71 3.78 0 45.34 0 4.66 0.78 0 0 0 0 0.98 0.01 0
    Bell_Beaker_Avg 30.76 27.08 12.54 10.64 9.06 5.02 0.73 0.29 0.93 0.01 0.61 1.81 0.13 0.08 0.32
    Corded_Ware_Avg 28.44 19.01 15.38 19.30 0.00 11.20 0.00 0.00 3.45 0.00 0.12 2.07 0.43 0.62 0.00
    Yamnaya_Average 24.73 4.05 13.05 28.68 0.00 18.85 0.00 0.00 5.89 0.00 0.00 4.57 0.03 0.00 0.15
    Hinxton_AS_Avg 41.37 28.59 8.85 9.48 6.16 3.24 0.31 0.28 0.36 0.23 0.00 0.03 0.13 0.27 0.69
    Hinxton_Celt_Avg 37.83 29.64 10.16 9.22 6.56 4.45 0.01 0.71 0.95 0.02 0.06 0.01 0.00 0.15 0.26
    Southeast_English 35.52 29.86 9.89 8.36 8.77 3.35 2.50 0.33 0.58 0.03 0.05 0.35 0.31 0.06 0.03
    North_Dutch 37.63 27.09 12.32 9.19 6.80 3.69 1.51 0.77 0.37 0.04 0.08 0.21 0.20 0.08 0.04
    Ust'-Ishim 0 11.24 0 3.08 4.82 0 0 3.36 30.76 15.25 2.02 2.2 10.96 10.08 6.22
    Kostenki_14 18.81 12.39 6.52 9.71 9.77 0 0 5.7 17.42 1.33 0.66 4.74 5.11 5.19 2.66
    Mal'ta 15.91 0 6.54 38.02 0 0 0 0 20.31 0 0 18.62 0.12 0 0.47


    Interesting post. This "virginity" of Y-R-U106 of Sweden concerning West Asian could prove some Y-R1b were in Europe before indo-europeanization (I think since a long time Y-R1b-U106 was separated form other R1b early enough, making its way North from ??? ( here I don't know, maybe from South Baltic lands?); its 'south-asian' would be an old set of genes from Central Asia, not by force from SCW Asia. or I-Eanization is not linked to 'west-asian'? Or 'west-asian' bearers were southeastern caspian people transmitting their metallurgist skills but not the language??? (always this language cradle question!) -
    the 'west-asian' of most poolings are a mix of Northern 'east-mediter' + 'gedrosia' itself a mix of ancient ANE 'gedrosia' and new 'gedrosia' ANI people of Pakistan
    concerning Y-R1b U106 and R1a Battel Axes C. Eurogenes found the former very close for aDNA to today Scandinavians whe the second is closer to Mordvins and surrounding populations of today...

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    There are 3 R1a samples, 3 R1b samples and 2 I1 samples from Sweden and Denmark in Allentoft's study:

    R1a:

    RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Denmark - 14C date 4071 BP, cal BC: -2851 to -2492
    RISE94 - Viby, Sweden - 14C date 4025 BP, cal BC: -2621 to -2472
    RISE42 - Marbjerg, Denmark - 14C date 3681 BP, cal BC: -2191 to -1972

    R1b:

    RISE98 - Lilla Beddinge, Sweden - 14C date 3736 BP, cal BC: -2275 to -2032
    RISE47 - Sebber Skole, Denmark - 14C date 3153 BP, cal BC: -1499 to -1324
    RISE276 - Trundholm Mose, Denmark - 14C date 2525 BP, cal BC: -794 to -547

    I1:

    RISE207 - Angamollan, Sweden - 14C date 3130 BP, cal BC: -1493 to -1302
    RISE175 - Abekas, Sweden - 14C date 3025 BP, cal BC: -1395 to -1132

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks Greying Wanderer
    that said, I stay very often amazed in front of these founder effects - except for a very advantageous gene submitted to strong straightforwards selection pressure, I consider it as very unexpected (not "impossible") event in already well populated regions - we have to imagine empty regions but Atlantic regions were rather the opposite of that I think
    Many of Atlantic regions were actually sparsely populated.

    Farming came to those regions late, and some groups of hunter-gatherers survived there for a long time (even until PIE arrival).

    The limit of the expansion of farmers (and farming) in Europe by ca. 6500 years ago:



    Based on this map:

    http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...6.figures-only



    Check also:

    https://www.academia.edu/677271/Expe...gical_Evidence



    As well as:

    "Regional population collapse followed initial agriculture booms in mid-Holocene Europe":

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...comms3486.html

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...ncomms3486.pdf

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    @Tomenable

    Yes, and wheat not liking acid soil (which the Atlantic coast has) is a possible explanation for why.

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    [QUOTE=Tomenable;461155]There are 3 R1a samples, 3 R1b samples and 2 I1 samples from Sweden and Denmark in Allentoft's study:


    R1b:

    RISE98 - Lilla Beddinge, Sweden - 14C date 3736 BP, cal BC: -2275 to -2032
    RISE47 - Sebber Skole, Denmark - 14C date 3153 BP, cal BC: -1499 to -1324
    RISE276 - Trundholm Mose, Denmark - 14C date 2525 BP, cal BC: -794 to -547



    Yes, the RISE98 was the one I was referring to as being R1b-U106. And that’s right, the actual date estimates are as you said.

    Regarding where I speculated that the conquering tribes were R1a, and that some of the leaders became U106 and I1 over time, I’m leaning further away from that now. For instance, on this page http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ngs-and-queens where it lists haplogroups of many European Kings and Queens, I only found one R1a listed there, and that was for Grand Princes of Kiev, Ukraine; while R1b was dominating on the post, with many of them U106. (As well as some I1’s in Sweden, Denmark and Norway.)

    Maybe the Bell Beaker R1b’s were the source of much of the language, religion and culture of NW Europe, and they in turn were partially descended from a pre-Yamna culture of some sort. Hopefully genetics will sort this out in the future. That may not be what most people on this forum think, but that’s how science often works – continually adjusting frameworks. And this site was one of the places that got me interested in this subject area to begin with.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    If I may add another thing: this Eurogenes K15 West Asian component seems to have appeared out of nowhere. I haven’t seen it in hardly any ancient samples that are dated before Yamnaya. And it's missing in Ust'-Ishim, Kostenki_14 and the Mal'ta boy. This is similar for the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b and to a lesser extent the West Asian component in Dodecad V3. I wonder if there was some isolated population (probably carrying some forms of y-dna R1) that then had a big population explosion with the Yamnaya people? -- Or maybe it will show up in ancient dna samples from parts of West- and Central Asia that we have yet to sample from.

    Here are the Dodecad: K12b and V3 results for the R1b-U106 3,736 ybp Swedish fellow from Southern Sweden. He has none of the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b, but he does have a substantial portion (3.83%) of the West Asian component from Dodecad V3:

    Dodecad K12b Dodecad V3
    Gedrosia 10.01% East_European 16.69%
    Siberian - West_European 60.70%
    Northwest_African - Mediterranean 16.06%
    Southeast_Asian - Neo_African 0.61%
    Atlantic_Med 34.45% West_Asian 3.83%
    North_European 54.19% South_Asian 1.35%
    South_Asian 0.47% Northeast_Asian -
    East_African - Southeast_Asian 0.20%
    Southwest_Asian - East_African -
    East_Asian - Southwest_Asian -
    Caucasus - Northwest_African -
    Sub_Saharan 0.86% Palaeo_African 0.58%
    But he has K12b Gedrosia. 10% is like modern NW-Euro levels, the highest in Europe. Gedrosia was never found in any pre-bronze sample from europe, so also this result supports the link between R1b and Gedrosian. It is autosomally not that far from Yamna. Maybe west Russia or Baltics is the place of origin like MOESAN suggested.
    West Asian(Caucasus) is more complex with ENF being very important.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Baltics and West Russia is place of 0 Gedrosia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    But he has K12b Gedrosia. 10% is like modern NW-Euro levels, the highest in Europe. Gedrosia was never found in any pre-bronze sample from europe, so also this result supports the link between R1b and Gedrosian. It is autosomally not that far from Yamna. Maybe west Russia or Baltics is the place of origin like MOESAN suggested.
    West Asian(Caucasus) is more complex with ENF being very important.

    Sample
    Gedrosian admixture
    Anzick 1
    7.83
    Corded Ware
    21.94
    German Bell Beaker
    9.62
    Mal’ta
    24.39
    Mesolithic Karelia
    6.05
    Mesolithic Samara
    12.98
    Yamna
    26.29

    Good point. Notice also how the Bell Beakers have just the right amount of Gedrosia for NW Europe.

    I’m not so sure RISE98 is autosomally not far from Yamna. I guess it depends how you look at it. It certainly doesn’t look close to Yamna on Eurogenes15.

    @arvistro: That’s right, e.g. Lithuanians have zero Gedrosia, but have about 9% Caucasus. A Corded Ware individual had 6.82% Caucasus and a Bell Beaker fellow had 2.71% Caucasus. Although a Yamna guy had just 2.12% Caucasus. It looks more and more to me like Bell Beakers tend to approximate modern Western Europeans, and Corded Ware folk in some ways tend to approximate modern Eastern Europeans and in other ways don’t. It’s strange to me how little Gedrosia they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Many of Atlantic regions were actually sparsely populated.

    Farming came to those regions late, and some groups of hunter-gatherers survived there for a long time (even until PIE arrival).

    The limit of the expansion of farmers (and farming) in Europe by ca. 6500 years ago:



    Based on this map:

    http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...6.figures-only



    Check also:

    https://www.academia.edu/677271/Expe...gical_Evidence



    As well as:

    "Regional population collapse followed initial agriculture booms in mid-Holocene Europe":

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...comms3486.html

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...ncomms3486.pdf
    That Royal Society Map for the spread of agriculture is great. I'm going to steal it for my files. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Baltics and West Russia is place of 0 Gedrosia..
    But was it 0 in the past too? For instance there was Corded Ware which was found to be rich in Gedrosia.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    The autosomal dna for the R1b-U106 individual who lived 3736 years ago on the Southern tip of the Swedish peninsula is now available. This is the oldest U106 sample I’m aware of. Today U106 peaks in North Holland, if I’m not mistaken, and is pretty common in England as well – where I believe my U106 patrilineal ancestors came from.

    The Eurogenes K15 results gave me some surprises:

    98.44% of the genes came from the first 5 of the 15 categories: North Sea, Atlantic, Baltic, Eastern Euro, and West Med. And another 1.07% was South Asian. This was like the older Motala 12, Loschbour and La Brana 1 individuals in that way, although with different proportions of those components and the older samples didn’t have any of the West Med component, which today peaks in Sardinians.

    There was no West Asian component. I thought there would be some Yamna / Corded Ware influence there, thus leaving at least a trace of the West Asian component, but no there wasn’t any! In the table below I averaged the seven Yamna samples and 4 Corded Ware samples from a Eurogenes K15 spreadsheet and got 18.85% West Asian for the Yamna, and 11.2% West Asian for the Corded Ware samples. And the Bell Beaker average even had 5.02% West Asian. The Hinxton Celt average (samples 1 and 4) had 4.45% West Asian, which was more than the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon average (samples 2, 3 and 5) of 3.24. Todays Swedes have 2.54% of the West Asian component. How did this Swedish U106 guy miss out on all the fun?

    There was no East Med component either, of which today Swedes and SouthEast English have 1.06% and 2.5% of, respectively. Many ancient European farmers had this component. Stuttgart had 25.91% of it, and Gokhem 2 had 4.66%.

    This makes me think this U106 guy may not have spoken a Germanic language or have had a Norse religion. I suspect those things probably came with the West Asian component. Although I think he may have had smaller parts of those things. But if that were the case, what Y-haplogroup did those conquering tribes have? Were they R1a, and then over time some leaders became U106 and I1?
    I think your surprises / doubts can be explained by this theory from Anthrogenica forum:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93532

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1198743

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar
    I have this theory of native component recovery after admixture. Some native markers are selected for and they bring along with them the recovery of their associated component. Recovery of WHG after admixture would therefore be expected in areas where WHG was native and similarly EEF would recover where EEF was native. The converse is also true - Euro WHG type markers would not be selected for in South Asia, and the component would reduce over time in South Asia.
    Another suggested explanation:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93464

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth
    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro
    Sorry if im being ignorant here, but this Sintashta admixture in Pashtuns doesn't make any sense to me. Sintashta are 45% WHG, whereas Pashtun are only 1-2%. So if Pashtuns were 40% Sintashta, that would make them aroud 20% WHG...
    The Sintashta-like ancestry in Pashtuns is covered under components other than WHG. ADMIXTURE clusters are not absolutes, but dependant on the number and type of samples used in the initial run. They don't need to correlate with qpAdm results or Haak et al fit results for them to work, and should not be expected to considering all the different ADMIXTURE runs around.

    An example of what I mean: Han can be represented as unmixed or significantly mixed in ADMIXTURE if an East Asian component isn't allowed to form. In the recent Eurogenes ancient genome runs they are a mix of East Asian and ASE, in Verenich's newest calculator they are a mix of East Siberian and Oceanian and in the analysis below they are a mix of Native American, SSA and West Eurasian.

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar
    A few points on Pakhtoon, Sintashta, Dai etc.

    1. Modern Pakhtoons as an input to Sintashta has to fail as Pakhtoons have ASI which is near South Asia specific. Non HGDP Pakhtoons as an input may look better as they have less ASI, but then they have higher SW Asian which would create the same problem as ASI. Folk should be careful with ASI - it is a very old 40000+year separation from ASI ancestors which included the Dai, Ongee, ANE etc., and ASI is not extant in an unadmixed form (the Dai is representing ASI here much as Reich uses the Santhal).

    2. The R1a1 Y chromosome overlap of the Pakhtoons and Sintashta folk are in line (along with their xM xU2i mtDNA).

    3. Moorjani et al. noted that the Pathan show a single pulse admixture dated to 2,117ybp (73+-9 gens) between ANI and ASI at 71% of the former. Again this is very consistent with the Sintashta Dai type admixture.

    4. I think WHG may be a red herring. While Sintashta may indeed turn out to a have a North Central Euro WHG type component, I have not yet seen good evidence as to how Sintashta's WHG differs from shared ancestry among all western hunter gatherers.

    I would add a couple more points in general.

    I have this theory of native component recovery after admixture. Some native markers are selected for and they bring along with them the recovery of their associated component. Recovery of WHG after admixture would therefore be expected in areas where WHG was native and similarly EEF would recover where EEF was native. The converse is also true - Euro WHG type markers would not be selected for in South Asia, and the component would reduce over time in South Asia.
    And yet another explanation:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93340

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja
    Sintashta was R1a-Z93-Z2124, right? If so, it's extremely likely they are the direct ancestors of most R1a-Z93 Afghans (and a sizable chunk of Indian R1a, mostly from the South/Southwest) since they're mostly Z2124. We'd need next generation level sequencing of ancient Sintashta Y-DNA to confirm it (along with FGC/Big Y of Afghan R1a).

    It is weird to think that Admixture might be totally screwing this up though. There's like none of the WHG admixture of Sintashta left, it's not even at Tajik or Haryana levels in what we've seen so far. One explanation is that 3000 years is a long time and while being descended from Sintashta, the Pashtun people were heavily autosomally influenced by other West Asian populations ("Gedrosian"? Either as a late arrival or what the local contribution was. It's ground zero of a WHG "sink", and WHG goes up around it in all directions except west and south). qpAdm could just be picking up the connection that Admixture isn't best equipped for.

    The other is that Admixture is totally unreliable here and the WHG autosomal signature is there but being picked up as ENF, ANE, and/or something else. This seems exceedingly unlikely (because, for instance, WHG is found throughout South Asia in a more discernible spread) but it has to be a possibility since we can be fairly certain the end solution should be Sintashta -> Pashtun.

    Getting ancient DNA from Iran and Afghanistan would be a huge help.

    WHG is still there in higher quantities among some groups like Pamiri Tajiks, there since probably before the population movements of the last 2000 years. Has there been any study on their haplogroups? Are they R1a-Z2124 too?

    Makes me wonder when we'll find out who brought L657 into South Asia. I wouldn't be surprised if they're autosomally similar to Sintashta.
    =================
    =================

    More about Pashtun - Sintashta links (Sintashta DNA has recently been published in Allentoft's paper):

    Pashtuns seem to have at least 40-45% of their ancestry derived from people of that culture, and in male lineages (Y-DNA lineages) actually even more, well over half. "Population X" represents a hypothetical local substrate population who had lived there before Sintashta-like people came, or some later immigrants absorbed by those Sintashta-like guys - explaining how Pashtuns plot genetically nowadays:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93441

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd
    I have used an input ancestral population with similar admixture as modern Armenians. This change from above results in repositioning of Population X. Under this scenario, Pashtuns can be modeled as 43% Sintashta + 38% BA [Bronze Age] population similar in admix to modern Armenians + 19% Pop X, with Pop X's position being shifted from above.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Sein
    The Sintashta culture, also known as the Sintashta-Petrovka culture[1] or Sintashta-Arkaim culture,[2] is a Bronze Age archaeological culture of the northern Eurasian steppe on the borders of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, dated to the period 2100–1800 BCE.[3] The earliest known chariots have been found in Sintashta burials, and the culture is considered a strong candidate for the origin of the technology, which spread throughout the Old World and played an important role in ancient warfare.[4] Sintashta settlements are also remarkable for the intensity of copper mining and bronze metallurgy carried out there, which is unusual for a steppe culture.[5]

    Because of the difficulty of identifying the remains of Sintashta sites beneath those of later settlements, the culture was only recently distinguished from the Andronovo culture.[2] It is now recognised as a separate entity forming part of the 'Andronovo horizon'.[1]

    (...)

    The people of the Sintashta culture are thought to have spoken Proto-Indo-Iranian, the ancestor of the Indo-Iranian language family. This identification is based primarily on similarities between sections of the Rig Veda, an Indian religious text which includes ancient Indo-Iranian hymns recorded in Vedic Sanskrit, with the funerary rituals of the Sintashta culture as revealed by archaeology.[11]
    The Kalash and the Tajiks also speak Indo-Iranian languages, and share many genetic similarities with the Pashtuns. All these groups also show ancestral genetic similarities with various North-Eastern and Eastern Europeans, such as for example Lithuanians:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93207

    Quote Originally Posted by Sein
    Also, the IBD links [of ancient Sintashta people and modern Pashtuns] are pretty strong, despite the fact that the samples aren't of ideal quality for IBD analysis, and despite the fact that it is very hard to detect IBD over the time scale which currently concerns us. I don't know where this notion stems from.

    In addition, Sintashta have the right R1a1a subclades. We can be 100% certain that 50%-70% of Pashtun males are direct descendants of Sintashta and/or it's descendant/related steppe cultures. Even the mtDNA shows links. Taking this into consideration, it is of no real surprise that Pashtuns are predominantly steppe-derived in terms of genome-wide ancestry.

    Edit: Also, Pashtuns came out as 66% Lithuanian-admixed in ALDER*, not qpAdm. This was more than a year ago. At the time, I dismissed the results. But now, it seems that Everest was on to something.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93179

    Quote Originally Posted by Sein
    3) The Pashtun-Sintashta fits are always the best fits produced by this software, probably because Sintashta are directly ancestral to Pashtuns and company (a fact borne out by the presence of R1a1a lineages in Sintashta which are the exact same lineages found in anywhere from around 50% to 70% of Pashtun males. Also, Sintashta and Andronovo in Allentoft et al. have a hefty share of mtDNA U2 lineages, which constitute the largest share of the modern Pashtun mtDNA gene pool). If they were a broad proxy for general steppe admixture, the fits would be great, but not as amazingly excellent as they are now.

    Just something to think about.

    (...)

    Edit: Everest once used ALDER (another piece in the ADMIXTOOLS package) on the HGDP Pashtuns. With Lithuanians, he got Pashtuns to be 66% Lithuanian-admixed. That is quite close to the Sintashta percentages. Here is what he wrote to me:

    "Interesting. Alder can calculate admixture % using just 1 reference samples. I tried computer admixture % for Pashtuns using Georgians, Sindhis and then Lithuanians. The admixture using Lithuanian was a whopping 66%."
    *ALDER is this software: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/cb/alder/

    IBD = Identity By Descent:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_by_descent

    A DNA segment is identical by state (IBS) in two or more individuals if they have identical nucleotide sequences in this segment. An IBS segment is identical by descent (IBD) in two or more individuals if they have inherited it from a common ancestor without recombination, that is, the segment has the same ancestral origin in these individuals.
    "The IBD links are pretty strong" = they share a lot of common ancestors, or one is descended from the other one.

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    where it lists haplogroups of many European Kings and Queens
    Dynasties from which monarchs listed there by Maciamo originated, were established thousands of years after Indo-European expansions into Europe - so there is no direct connection whatsoever. Some of those dynasties were established on their thrones even as late as the 19th century (for example George I of Greece from Maciamo's list was elected king by the Greek National Assembly in 1863):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_I_of_Greece

    BTW - here some more royal Y-DNA and mtDNA can be found: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/royaldna.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    But was it 0 in the past too? For instance there was Corded Ware which was found to be rich in Gedrosia.
    It is Mystery to me. Just like many things related to Balts :)
    Perhaps someone should run two Altentoft samples from Baltics for Gedrosia - the Estonian CW and Lithuanian 500 bce. To check for dynamics.
    (There was another surprise for Lithuanian 500 bce was less SHG/WHG than modern... Crazy...).

    Gedrosia used to be in Meso Karelia and Samara as noted couple of posts up and very rich in (German) Corded Ware. It looks like Balts landed from ??? moon?? to avoid it.
    Or its just a glitch in calculators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    It is Mystery to me. Just like many things related to Balts :)
    Perhaps someone should run two Altentoft samples from Baltics for Gedrosia - the Estonian CW and Lithuanian 500 bce. To check for dynamics.
    (There was another surprise for Lithuanian 500 bce was less SHG/WHG than modern... Crazy...).

    Gedrosia used to be in Meso Karelia and Samara as noted couple of posts up and very rich in (German) Corded Ware. It looks like Balts landed from ??? moon?? to avoid it.
    Or its just a glitch in calculators.
    Balts start to resemble the Basques in terms of mystery :)

    I do think that certain significant autosomal changes did happen in NE Europe. Perhaps a necessary question would be: how much of which admixture is necessary to transform Gedrosia into something else.

    Gedrosia is also a mystery in Basques. They shouldn't have it, given their low ANE and West-Asian scores in all other calculators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Perhaps a necessary question would be: how much of which admixture is necessary to transform Gedrosia into something else.
    I agree, this makes perfect sense. Maybe it somehow overlaps with Caucasus?

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    There was another surprise for Lithuanian 500 bce was less SHG/WHG than modern
    This might be a confirmation of Anthrogenica Parasar's theory (see quotes from my post above).

    Or a gene flow from Estonian-like population (Estonians have even more Hunter-Gatherer autosomal).

    BTW - I wonder if Mesolithic Lithuania was inhabited by WHG or by EHG (Eastern Hunter-Gatherers).

    EHG can be modelled as roughly 50-55% WHG + 35-40% ANE (proportions 6:4), but it was a thing on its own:


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    It looks like we were mostly WHG not EHG. But I believe most likely we were Motala like folk with some Neolithic blood, before Corded Ware arrived.

    Davidsky wrote this on May on Lithuanians:
    "I've already pointed out the unusually high WHG affinity in the East Baltic, so these stats aren't surprising.

    EHG WHG Yamnaya Yoruba 0.0371 10.902
    EHG WHG Corded_Ware_LN Yoruba 0.0205 5.393
    EHG WHG Bell_Beaker_LN Yoruba -0.0054 -1.495
    EHG WHG Lithuanian Yoruba -0.013 -4.365
    SHG WHG Lithuanian Yoruba -0.0004 -0.158

    And they don't mean that Lithuanians are a mixture of EEF, WHG and Pashtun-like people from Central Asia, but rather that there weren't any EHG or even SHG populations in the East Baltic, and all of the ANE, and probably Near Eastern admixture, among Balts comes from the Corded Ware/Battle-Axe people.

    The apparent lack of SHG and EHG in the East Baltic might seems surprising, but not the fact that Balts are in large part of Corded Ware origin. That was already suspected a long time ago from archaeological data."


    I quote him, but I do not necessarily agree. Since there is more recent post by Krefter June 29:
    Lithuanian using Corded Ware Estonia, WHG/SHG, and MNs.

    74% CWC_Est + 18% SHG + 0% WHG + 8% Gokhem_MN @ D = 0.0146
    74% CWC_Est + 18% SHG + 0% WHG + 8% Baalberge_MN @ D = 0.0144
    73% CWC_Est + 19% SHG + 0% WHG + 8% Esperstedt_MN @ D = 0.0145


    So, we are like 3 parts of Corded Ware Estonia (who is localised Corded Ware in itself, more WHG) + 1 part of mix (70% SHG + 30% Middle Neolithic Germans)).

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    In this new doctoral dissertation by Anna Szécsényi-Nagy (link):

    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf

    In point 4.3.5 the author writes about TPC (Test for Population Continuity).

    There is a 2013 math formula for this: https://github.com/joepickrell/tpc

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    Thanks Tomenable. Your responses made me more confused, but I guess that's probably a good thing in the long run.

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