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Thread: Autosomal analysis of Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples

  1. #101
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    Apparently when I feel smthg is wrong, it is wrong. David checked Lithuanian ba again and this is his latest statement:
    The Lithuanian BA sample is very similar to Lithuanians, except it's a little more northern, suggesting more HG ancestry.

    Which is what I would expect.

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    Agree until the 4000 BC and around, because after the 4000 BC we see an increasing densitiy of megalithic momuments on Ataltnic façade, sepultures and territories marks, all of which needed a dense enough population, for I think. Some tries for archeodemography estimated the bigger increase in Germany was around the megalithic period, not the BB's one, before Urnfields; perhaps this new science requires some more time to publish more accurate results. But I think the introgression of Western megaliths into West Germany between 4000 and 3000 BC, along Loire and East France trail is sufficient to prove Atlantic shores were not a desert. By the way, physical changes occurred among future Brittany people at theses times, before others changes at and after BBs times. Megalithic types on the way to Long Barrows types, with some cromagnoid accretions, and what seems an other HG people from West of France (more 'capelloid') would have left the Atlantic shores to take along Garonne river towards North Mediterranea, maybe pushed by the new.comers or coming with them? the problem of Western France for skeletal remnants is its soil acidity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Balts start to resemble the Basques in terms of mystery :)

    I do think that certain significant autosomal changes did happen in NE Europe. Perhaps a necessary question would be: how much of which admixture is necessary to transform Gedrosia into something else.

    Gedrosia is also a mystery in Basques. They shouldn't have it, given their low ANE and West-Asian scores in all other calculators.

    I agree things are not too easy. But 'gedrosia' is not so low among Basques compared to other SW Europeans. and 'ANE' is an older concept a sa whole, based upon Mal'ta if I'm not wrong. 'ANE' is "larger" than 'gedrosia'. possibly, the all 'ANE' for Basque was in its 'gedrosia', almost as in Celts, when in east Europe, the former 'ANE' component was split into more than a new component. and I repeat, old 'gedrosia' IS NOT EQUAL to new 'gedrosia' of Baluchis. these components are a bit unsteady products of diverse poolings. By the way, Basques should not have Y-R1b in the proportions they have, but they have!

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    [QUOTE=arvistro;461350]Baltics and West Russia is place of 0 Gedrosia..[/QUOTE

    We are speaking of Past. Things changed more than a time meanwhile. As I already said in ancient times some countries could have been run across by more than an ethny before these ethnies begun to cross one with another, aside some females rapts. I see Y-R1b-U106 or future U106 passing South the Baltic, maybe without too much contacts with sedentary ex HGs neolithicized population which had NO 'gedrosia' when the U106's had. its possible the most of ex-HGs Y-R1a of North did not have ancient 'gedrosia'. And perhaps it was the same cas with Y-N1 people speaking finnic-uralic, who could have reinforced this lack of 'gedrosia'
    The today Baltic speaking people are not only primary I-Ean speakers and their 'ANE' was without 'gedrosian ANE', possibly.
    I see Corded entering Scandinavia, at first without too much contacts with the stayed aback populations of South Baltic shores (Y-I1?) and no more contacts with first Y-R1b-U106. More than a wave entered Scandinavia after first Neolithic people. I think the most of the fusion between Y(R1b, Y-R1a and Y-I1 occurred in or around southern Scandinavia during Bronze, before creating Jastorf culture? the 'west-asian- or 'gedrosia' component were perhaps stronger in Scandinavia before the Germanic concretion and diminshed by I1 (0%)+ R1b (smaller %?) actions?
    concerning ancient and current components; I think they have all of them their advantages and defects. Porosity between 'Caucasus', 'east-med', 'gedrosia' and even 'south-asian' in 'west-asian' by instance. old 'south-asian' surely split off into some of 'west-asian', 'gedrosia', even 'caucasus according to runs.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Gedrosia used to be in Meso Karelia and Samara as noted couple of posts up and very rich in (German) Corded Ware. It looks like Balts landed from ??? moon?? to avoid it.
    Or its just a glitch in calculators.
    Yeah, I think a glitch in the calculator is the most likely explanation for Lithuanians have 0% Gedrosia. I guess the algorithm just doesn't do its job in picking up a similar component in them. Since the ancient Western European Hunter Gatherers don't have it either though, maybe that suggests that Balts are the modern populations most closely related to them.

    I'm glad to see that heated debate between Dienekes and Davidski trashing each others' calculators. I doubt any of those calculators are perfect by any stretch. And I don't know which of them is the best. I would by no means want to discard the whole K12b calculator based on that, though. I hope someone else comes along with a different calculator.

    One thing I think that the new 4,000 ybp Swedish U106 sample has shown about the calculators though, is that when the Eurogenes K15 West Med (Sardinian-like Ancient Farmers) component shows up, the Dodecad K12b Gedrosia component shows up as well. Or rather, the algorithm distinguishes it from the other components.


    Afterthought: Actually, those ancient Swedish Hunter-Gatherers didn’t have Y-dna R. They were all Y-dna I, as far as I know. So the Gedrosia may well have come with the Y-dna R. Mal’ta (Y-dna R*) had 24% Gedrosia, Anzick 1 (Y-dna Q) had 8% Gedrosia, and the 4000 ybp Paleo-Eskimo (Y-dna Q) had 5%, so Gedrosia may well be associated with Y-dna R and maybe Q too. But how did the current East Europeans end up with so little of it? Polish: 0.5%, Ukranians: 0.3%, Belorussians: 0%. I guess another explanation might be they heavily mixed with a different population that was associated with Y-dna I or another haplogroup. I don’t understand how they could have selectively lost Gedrosia otherwise.
    Last edited by JS Bach; 16-07-15 at 02:11. Reason: added afterthought

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    'gedrosia' was well represented among very ancient people or Central Asia South Siberia, not to different from some of the famous ANE - I think in Ust-Ishim, Mal'ta, Kostentki14 -
    but this 'gedrosia' component of Central Asia Eastern Eurasia is NAMED 'gedrosia' because TODAY its more high frequence is among Baluchis, ALONG with other genes labelled 'gedrosia' too for the same present days reasons, even if these last ones had never been present in Central Asia and around (all that if I have well understood the pooling work).
    So, a set of genes maybe has been common in a huge territory between Northeast Europe, East Eurasia Central Asia and after some separations of tribes they has been kept by every new population but not all of them and not allways the same ones; some of the most southern ones became 'gedrosia' in nomenclature when some of the more northern did not: a "washing" of ancient DNA by modern namings? surely they were some old asian 'gedrosia' in North (see Karelia) but less tha in South, and some more mutations plus exchanges of genes with foreign population achieved to "clean" definitely?
    for these reason, I would be glad to know if the N-W Europe (Celtic, Germanic) 'gedrosia' elements are sharedthe with the S-Caucasus-Near-Eastern 'gedrosia'...
    sorry for my laborious english and the noise maid by my brain gering. In some way I repaet myself, trying to be clearer, what is not sure!

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    gearing, repeat - sorry

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    IN fact I partly agree with JS Bach.

    + We can also see things otherwise
    there were 'gedrosia' and 'gedrosia' and there is new 'gedrosia' - my above explanation plays a role in the question, I think. But we could say: old 'gedrosia' was for the most an Eastern component for Eurasia (it seems confirmed with some East Asian populations) and the introgression in Eastern Europe (not Eurasia) came by SOutheast, through Caucasus, and did not concern northernmost populations accultured later, before they became Balts and Slavs???
    I avow I think the first explanation (ancient N and new S 'gedrosia') has more weight but?
    I recall if it can be useful that Balts and Slavs favor 'sardinian' at the depend of 'basque' when Scandinavians, Western Europeans do the opposite; even Finland is more 'basque' and less 'sardinian' than Balts and Slavs... W

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    Interesting. In one source Gimbutas derived Balts from Lower Dnieper and related folk in Fatyanovo from middle Dnieper. Which is basically Sredny Stog.
    But also GAC folk was there.
    Anyway those all were Gedrosia rich populations. Maybe "East European" eats "Gedrosia".
    I ve seen different estimates from 75% (with additional SHG and ENF) to 98% Lithuanians from CW Estonia. Archeologically there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Will re-read anthropology study by Raisa Denisova on Balts.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I can think of a third possible explanation now for why Lithuanians have 0% Gedrosia. I was reading one of the comments on the Eurogenes site where the poster was providing an explanation for why the admixture results of the Bell Beaker samples varied so widely among the samples. And he said the reason for that was because the algorithm had to randomly choose what categories to place the SNPs in because the mutations hadn’t occurred yet, at that point in history. And if a better algorithm were used, there wouldn’t be as much variance among those Bell Beaker samples in their results. I think that’s what may be happening with the ancient DNA samples here. That is, the Gedrosia in the Mal’ta boy may actually just be phantom Gedrosia, since the algorithm is guessing between the North_European and Gedrosia sister clades. And likewise for Anzick 1 (18% North_European) and the Paleo Eskimo (12% North_European). And likewise also for Karelia, Yamna and Corded Ware. And since those aforementioned Eastern European countries have so little R1b, maybe that’s the answer. I definitely like this one better than my second explanation, and now it’s a toss-up between whether I like this explanation better than my first explanation of there being a glitch in the calculator. A question is, are NorthWest European and NorthEast European languages so different as to warrant such a stark contrast in Gedrosia?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I can think of a third possible explanation now for why Lithuanians have 0% Gedrosia. I was reading one of the comments on the Eurogenes site where the poster was providing an explanation for why the admixture results of the Bell Beaker samples varied so widely among the samples. And he said the reason for that was because the algorithm had to randomly choose what categories to place the SNPs in because the mutations hadn’t occurred yet, at that point in history. And if a better algorithm were used, there wouldn’t be as much variance among those Bell Beaker samples in their results. I think that’s what may be happening with the ancient DNA samples here. That is, the Gedrosia in the Mal’ta boy may actually just be phantom Gedrosia, since the algorithm is guessing between the North_European and Gedrosia sister clades. And likewise for Anzick 1 (18% North_European) and the Paleo Eskimo (12% North_European). And likewise also for Karelia, Yamna and Corded Ware. And since those aforementioned Eastern European countries have so little R1b, maybe that’s the answer. I definitely like this one better than my second explanation, and now it’s a toss-up between whether I like this explanation better than my first explanation of there being a glitch in the calculator. A question is, are NorthWest European and NorthEast European languages so different as to warrant such a stark contrast in Gedrosia?
    I also think there is some problem with calculators. It is impossible that generosity could disappear completely from Eastern Europe, being at pretty high level few thousand years.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I also think there is some problem with calculators. It is impossible that generosity could disappear completely from Eastern Europe, being at pretty high level few thousand years.
    Maybe, but reread my 104# 106# - maybe too a part of the explanation -
    and about 'basque' and 'sardinian' components of some poolings: as a matter of fact, Basque population is not void of 'gedrosia' when Sardinian population is...
    a population of the region comprised between SE Poland, E Carpathians and NW Ukraina could have been left a moment aside the great first changes, a population with high %s of WHG + a bit lowest %s of classical EEF ('sardinianlike') ? So Y-I2a(1) + some Y-G2a, later impacted by Y-R1a northeastern people, themselves rich enough in WHG/EHG + ANE ??? No 'gedrosia ' with the northeastern Y-R1a people and no 'gedrosia' with the former EEF and WHG ???

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Maybe, but reread my 104# 106# - maybe too a part of the explanation -
    and about 'basque' and 'sardinian' components of some poolings: as a matter of fact, Basque population is not void of 'gedrosia' when Sardinian population is...
    a population of the region comprised between SE Poland, E Carpathians and NW Ukraina could have been left a moment aside the great first changes, a population with high %s of WHG + a bit lowest %s of classical EEF ('sardinianlike') ? So Y-I2a(1) + some Y-G2a, later impacted by Y-R1a northeastern people, themselves rich enough in WHG/EHG + ANE ??? No 'gedrosia ' with the northeastern Y-R1a people and no 'gedrosia' with the former EEF and WHG ???
    I would agree that we could see Gedrosia diminishing to lower numbers through times, but not vanishing completely. There was no total population replacement there. Therefore problem needs to be the calculators.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I would agree that we could see Gedrosia diminishing to lower numbers through times, but not vanishing completely. There was no total population replacement there. Therefore problem needs to be the calculators.
    So, let's wait for other calculators... the two explanations can converge to the present apparent result?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    So, let's wait for other calculators... the two explanations can converge to the present apparent result?
    I agree. I guess we'll wait and see in the next 5 or 10 years what the results will bring. No way modern Germans can have 7% Gedrosia, Corded Ware 22%, and then Lithuanians and Belorussians 0%. I can see maybe 3 percent but not zero.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Do we know Gedrosia for RISE000? The Estonian CW sample?
    If this guy had Gedrosia, then Lithuania must have one too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Do we know Gedrosia for RISE000? The Estonian CW sample?
    If this guy had Gedrosia, then Lithuania must have one too.
    Is this the one you mean?

    RISE00 Sope, Estonia F999955 F H5a1 ~2000 years

    http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html


    Population
    Gedrosia 9.76%
    Siberian 0.27%
    Northwest_African -
    Southeast_Asian -
    Atlantic_Med 32.02%
    North_European 56.99%
    South_Asian 0.96%
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian -
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus -
    Sub_Saharan -

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    Million thanks! Can you add modern Lithuanians and Estonians with same calc!

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Million thanks! Can you add modern Lithuanians and Estonians with same calc!
    I didn't find Estonians for Dodecad K12b, but I found two Lithuanian samples there.

    Here are the Dodecad K12b results, and also the Eurogenes K15 results.

    I guess since more than 93% of the genes of these modern Balts comes from the first four categories in Eurogenes 15, maybe they are the most closely related to the ancient European hunter-gatherers.

    Actually, the Caucasus component in the modern samples looks like the Gedrosia component in the 2,000-year-old sample.


    Dodecad K12b
    Population Lithuanian_D Lithuanians RISE00
    Source Dodecad Behar y-str.org
    N 9 9 1
    Gedrosia 0 0 9.76%
    Siberian 0 0 0.27%
    Northwest_African 0 0 -
    Southeast_Asian 0 0 -
    Atlantic_Med 13.9 13.7 32.02%
    North_European 73.7 77.1 56.99%
    South_Asian 0.7 0.1 0.96%
    East_African 0 0 -
    Southwest_Asian 1.6 1 -
    East_Asian 0 0 -
    Caucasus 10.1 8 -
    Sub_Saharan 0 0 -


    Eurogenes K15
    Population RISE00 Estonian Lithuanian
    North_Sea 37.87% 26.23 20.15
    Atlantic 30.48% 16.33 15.72
    Baltic 18.50% 30.12 36.36
    Eastern_Euro 13.16% 20.68 21.18
    West_Med - 1.83 2.5
    West_Asian - 0.56 1.63
    East_Med - 0.01 0.61
    Red_Sea - 0.00 0.34
    South_Asian - 0.53 0.61
    Southeast_Asian - 0.02 0.06
    Siberian - 2.13 0.13
    Amerindian - 1.09 0.36
    Oceanian - 0.46 0.19
    Northeast_African - 0.00 0.11
    Sub-Saharan - 0.00 0.06
    Last edited by JS Bach; 18-07-15 at 18:54. Reason: Added the line about the Caucasus component

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    Rise00 is marked late Neolithic or bronze age. It should therefore be 2000 bce (4000 years old) not 2000 BP.

    If we go by blindly by stats:
    K15 stats show that CW was more Western than modern Balts.
    North Sea + Atlantic higher than Baltic + East European in RISE 00.

    K12b. Either CW population in Baltics got major replaced by something North Euro + Caucasus rich.
    Or Gedrosia ~ Caucasus and CW simply assimilated some more North Euros.

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    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I didn't find Estonians for Dodecad K12b, but I found two Lithuanian samples there.

    Here are the Dodecad K12b results, and also the Eurogenes K15 results.

    I guess since more than 93% of the genes of these modern Balts comes from the first four categories in Eurogenes 15, maybe they are the most closely related to the ancient European hunter-gatherers.

    Actually, the Caucasus component in the modern samples looks like the Gedrosia component in the 2,000-year-old sample.


    Dodecad K12b
    Population Lithuanian_D Lithuanians RISE00
    Source Dodecad Behar y-str.org
    N 9 9 1
    Gedrosia 0 0 9.76%
    Siberian 0 0 0.27%
    Northwest_African 0 0 -
    Southeast_Asian 0 0 -
    Atlantic_Med 13.9 13.7 32.02%
    North_European 73.7 77.1 56.99%
    South_Asian 0.7 0.1 0.96%
    East_African 0 0 -
    Southwest_Asian 1.6 1 -
    East_Asian 0 0 -
    Caucasus 10.1 8 -
    Sub_Saharan 0 0 -


    Eurogenes K15
    Population RISE00 Estonian Lithuanian
    North_Sea 37.87% 26.23 20.15
    Atlantic 30.48% 16.33 15.72
    Baltic 18.50% 30.12 36.36
    Eastern_Euro 13.16% 20.68 21.18
    West_Med - 1.83 2.5
    West_Asian - 0.56 1.63
    East_Med - 0.01 0.61
    Red_Sea - 0.00 0.34
    South_Asian - 0.53 0.61
    Southeast_Asian - 0.02 0.06
    Siberian - 2.13 0.13
    Amerindian - 1.09 0.36
    Oceanian - 0.46 0.19
    Northeast_African - 0.00 0.11
    Sub-Saharan - 0.00 0.06

    Thanks. It's interesting to notice all the Corded people seem richer for North Sea (element among the 'nordic' classic type I think) than today Balts and Estonians, spite being lower for other northern component ('baltic') and even 'east-euro'; higher for 'atlantic' - at the contrary, no 'caucasus' component in them in these calculations.
    It could confirm the passage of Corded people throught South before reaching the northern lands of Europe and the origin somewhere around the North-East of Caspian Sea of some elements contributing ot the 'nordic' dolichocephalic phenotype ("nordic" today, geographically speaking); it could explain also the shorter distance between 'northwest-euro' and 'westasian' (without separating, helas, 'gedrosia' from 'caucasus') than between 'baltic' and 'westasian', in some poolings.... the %s dominating depigmentation among the 'nordic' phenotype nad the longiligne skeleton could have been picked in central Eurasia of ancient times, not in North Europe...


  22. #122
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    all the way the ancient (perhaps ghosty) 'gedrosia' is in fact more linked to a northern component than to modern 'caucasus'; even above
    I cannot put on the algorythms errors the fact that modern 'gedrosia' and 'caucasus' show very different absolute but also relative %s in TODAY populations of Eurasia:
    is it an hazard if almost everytime you can link a lot of regions relatively rich either for ratio 'basque'/'sardinian' or 'gedrosia'/'caucasus'? Then 'gedrosia' seems relatively "northern" and 'caucasus' : "southern" and it does not seem an error betweeb 'gedrosia' abd 'caucasus' - 'gedrosia 'seems to me "steppic" and linked to Y-R1b more than to Y-R1a or otehrs;
    could it be linked to a kind of 'tadjik' ancient population ?

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    Autosomal analysis of Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples

    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Yes, that surprises me that the Els Trocs R1b sample could be so completely opposite in Eurogenes 15 from the Samara R1b samples of around the sample time period. But I guess that would be the reason, with the Els Trocs and Basque R1b’s mating with an autosomally Sardinian-like population – although how the Basques got a different language would be another question. Here are the results of these R’s for Eurogenes 15:


    Eurogenes 15
    Population Mal'ta
    Siberia
    Samara
    Russia
    Els Trocs
    Spain
    Yamnaya
    Samara
    Russia
    Corded
    Ware
    Germany
    Bell
    Beaker
    Germany
    Me
    Canada
    Age 24,000 ybp 7,500 ybp 7,000 ybp 5,000 ybp 4,400 ybp 4,250 ybp 0 ybp
    Y-dna Haplogroup R* R1b1a* R1b1* R1b1a2a* R1a1a1 R1b1a2a1a2 R1b1a2a1a1
    North_Sea 15.91% 25.51 0.01 22.57 25.93 36.57 34.08%
    Atlantic 0.01 25.14 5.55 27.79 29.08 28.20%
    Baltic 6.54% 17.68 13.9 12.84 12.89 6.18%
    Eastern_Euro 38.02% 41.73 28.6 17.26 7.22 6.84%
    West_Med 61.98 9.76%
    West_Asian 19.61 11.6 12.34 5.22%
    East_Med 11.98 5.53%
    Red_Sea 0.89 0.01 0.04 2.38%
    South_Asian 20.31% 1.99 5.59 3.09 0.57 0.56%
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian 0.18 1.03%
    Amerindian 18.62% 12.02 4.18 1.49 1.09 -
    Oceanian 0.12% 1.07 0.01 -
    Northeast_African 0.20%
    Sub-Saharan 0.47% -


    From the new samples, I look somewhat more like a Bell Beaker than a Corded Ware dude, and have nearly all NorthWestern European ancestry that’s mostly English, with the other one-sixteenth being Jewish. Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more genes to modern NorthWest Europeans than Corded Ware / Yamna did.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I've been trying other populations from Eurogenes 15 with this model, and here are a couple more:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    Danish 0.995665 0.57223 -0.02596 0.452749 0.006023
    North_Dutch 0.995606 0.672777 -0.1185 0.450742 -0.03299
    These two seem to fit the model very well, and come out as a mixture of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons and the Bell Beakers, with a bit less of the Bell Beakers. Maybe they correspond to the Angle, Frisian, Jute and Danish Viking invasions of England. The West Scottish and Irish come out as the opposite, with the same components but the large majority being the Hinxton Celts.


    Now here are the Germans:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    North_German 0.991923 -0.19132 0.663382 0.505257 0.151681
    West_German 0.962378 1.570118 -1.66584 0.991526 0.692574
    East_German 0.965777 0.686971 -1.81043 2.148594 -0.1685
    Looking at the North Germans, I thought maybe the Saxons brought over a Hinxton Celtic-Bell Beaker mix. (The South Dutch and French were also high in Bell Beakers) But then, the West and East Germans had more of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon component and less of the Hinxton Celts -- although their models didn't fit as well.


    Now for the Scandinavians:

    R-Squared Anglo-Saxon Celt Bell Beaker Intercept
    West_Norwegian 0.990316 2.251309 -1.97525 0.757186 -0.22386
    Norwegian 0.986636 2.07966 -2.0498 0.991973 -0.14615
    Icelandic 0.993988 0.742832 -0.2822 0.58937 -0.33384
    Orcadian 0.998015 0.547285 0.498763 -0.06765 0.144096
    Swedish 0.970309 1.96859 -1.97326 1.019808 -0.10206
    The Norwegians, Icelanders and Swedes had lots of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons plus some Bell Beakers, and were low in Hinxton Celts. However, the intercepts were higher, thus suggesting additional components and confounding the results more. The Orcadians had a more even blend of the two Hinxton groups and had less of the Bell Beakers, which made sense to me, seeing how different from the rest of Britain they come out as on other genetic population measures. I don't see much evidence against them being largely a mixture of the West Norwegian and West Scottish samples. All the other populations I tried had lower R-squared values.
    Spot on Bach!!!

    My Northern Dutch K15

    Population
    North_Sea 39.01
    Atlantic 27.71
    Baltic 12.19
    Eastern_Euro 10.20
    West_Med 5.86
    West_Asian 2.80
    East_Med 0.51
    Red_Sea -
    South_Asian 1.02
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.48
    Northeast_African 0.22
    Sub-Saharan -

    In every analysis this comes close to the Bell Beaker (especially the North Sea component) too. But especially with higher and Eastern Euro the Corded Ware component is higher than in the Bell Beaker (or yours).

    I think that's the North Sea gene pool, or a Zoned Beakers in which Corded Ware (CW) an Bell Beaker (BB) both played a part. This area is Northern Dutch, Northwest Germany and Southwestern Scandinavia (Denmark/Norway).

    In K15 represented with on one hand typically Bell Beaker components like 1/3 and more North Sea ánd a relative higher Southwestern Europe component like West Med (CW=0!) than CW on the other with a relative bigger East-European component than in BB which is typically CW.

    The genetics of this area has the same genetic 'matrushka' within this cultural complexes:
    1. Ertebølle, HG culture (about 50% in these region!)
    2. Funnelbeaker, Early Neolithic (influx from EEF)
    3. Corded ware/ single grave, Neolithic
    4. Bell Beaker, Late Neolithic


    As stated elsewhere I think C.S. Coon has a case when he stated in Races of Europe (1948), page 156: 'The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. These three, of which the Bell Beaker element formed perhaps the dominant one, amalgamated to form an Early Bronze Age cultural unit, the so-called Zoned Beaker people who invaded England an Scotland as the first important carriers of metal.'
    Last edited by Northener; 18-01-17 at 04:04.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't remember in which thread Tomenable or Northerners gave me auDNA admixt K15 for 5 Scandinavian CWC - but their results show neat differences with 4 CWC from Espersetdt, the Scandinavians seeming more Northwestern (so with a bit of local input taken on the road?

    4 Esperstedt CWC: N-Sea / Atlan / Balt / EEuro / WMed / WAsia / SthAsia / EMed / RSea / Siber / Amer / SEAsi / Ocean / NEAfri / SSA
    28,44 / 19,01 / 15,38 / 19,30 / 0,00 / 11,20 / 3,45 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,12 / 2,07 / 0,00 / 0,43 / 0,62 / 0,00 /
    5 Scandinavian(?) CWC: same order
    41,61 / 26,79 / 11,60 / 8,65 / 5,52 / 2,94 / 0,21 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,02 / 0,00 / 0,50 /

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't remember in which thread Tomenable or Northerners gave me auDNA admixt K15 for 5 Scandinavian CWC - but their results show neat differences with 4 CWC from Espersetdt, the Scandinavians seeming more Northwestern (so with a bit of local input taken on the road?

    4 Esperstedt CWC: N-Sea / Atlan / Balt / EEuro / WMed / WAsia / SthAsia / EMed / RSea / Siber / Amer / SEAsi / Ocean / NEAfri / SSA
    28,44 / 19,01 / 15,38 / 19,30 / 0,00 / 11,20 / 3,45 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,12 / 2,07 / 0,00 / 0,43 / 0,62 / 0,00 /
    5 Scandinavian(?) CWC: same order
    41,61 / 26,79 / 11,60 / 8,65 / 5,52 / 2,94 / 0,21 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,02 / 0,00 / 0,50 /
    Thanks Moesan. Must have been Tomenable. But when I compare my aDNA with CW Eperstedt and CW Scandinavia my aDNA comes very close to the Scandinavian in stead of Eperstedt. I guess Ertebølle and Funnelbeaker, your 'local input' make the difference to Eperstedt.


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