I agree for the most concerning components %s - THIS BB AVERAGE shows a bit more central asian elements, -
the question for me is: what is BB people? at what time AND WHERE? we credit what was firstable a small number of pioneers fo the populating of all Western Europe: but I suppose the BBs we find in Germany are partly acculturated tribes and not the genuine previous prospectors - they mixed with local people and took their females in more than a place - the homogeneization in Central Europe between Atlantic populations and Central Europe populations was begun, I think, during the mMegalithic,

After seeing the Eurogenes K15 breakdown of the 8,000 ybp R1b1* from El Trocs, Spain, which I posted on the first page of this thread, and seeing how starkly different it is from other ancient R1b's, I find what you said much easier to believe - perhaps especially with R1b's.
 
After seeing the Eurogenes K15 breakdown of the 8,000 ybp R1b1* from El Trocs, Spain, which I posted on the first page of this thread, and seeing how starkly different it is from other ancient R1b's, I find what you said much easier to believe - perhaps especially with R1b's.

As Maciamo said, there is not really a BB culture. There is only lose cultural contact between the Iberian BB and Central European BB.
 
Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more to modern Western Europeans than we give them credit for.

If LP was at very low frequencies and then increased dramatically to 70%+ along the Atlantic coast then might whoever had LP initially have benefited from a huge founder effect?
 
It actually does. If we asume that Cucuteni_Trypilian culture is related to other farming cultures of Europe. Than it should show EEF type farmer DNA just like all the other farming cultures there. Even Iron Age Balkan farmer DNA was typically EEF. There is not much room left.

I remember Reich (not sure if it was Eurogenes quoting him or his own opinion) said the fact that the farmer DNA is typical for modern Near Easterners. Speaks for a direct introduction from the Near East and not a detour through Europe.

The only possibility left for a CT origin of this farmer DNA, is to assume that this culture was a rather recent wave of farmer migrants from the Near East, who differed from the early Neolithic farmers who reached Europe earlier.

But I'm not assuming that Cucuteni-Trypilian culture is the same genetically as other farming cultures in Europe, such as LBK. I'm assuming that it could have been formed by a somewhat different wave of Middle Eastern farmers mixing with a specific group of European hunter gatherers. We can't know for certain at present, it's just an idea.
 
As Maciamo said, there is not really a BB culture. There is only lose cultural contact between the Iberian BB and Central European BB.

What do you think of Vadim's K14 model for this topic...........it seems to me he has found something
 
As Maciamo said, there is not really a BB culture. There is only lose cultural contact between the Iberian BB and Central European BB.

And that is based on what evidence?
 
I've been trying to model NorthWestern European populations from the Eurogenes 15 spreadsheet as a combination of the Bell Beaker and Hinxton genomes from their Eurogenes 15 results.

The two Celtic Hinxton samples were said to be Hinxton 1 and Hinxton 4, so I averaged them; the three Anglo-Saxon samples were said to be Hinxton 2, 3 and 5, so I averaged them; and I also averaged the seven Bell Beaker samples. I first weighted them as 1/4 Hinxton Celts, 1/4 Hinxton Anglo-Saxons, and 1/2 Bell Beakers, and got quite similar results to the SouthEast English results. I then weighted them with equal weights (1/3 each) and the results looked perhaps even closer the SouthEast English:


Hinxton 1 and 4 Average37.8329.63510.169.2156.5554.4450.0050.7050.950.020.060.00500.150.255
Hinxton 2, 3 and 5 Average41.3733328.593338.859.4833336.1633333.2366670.3066670.280.360.23333300.0333330.1333330.2733330.686667
Bell Beaker Average30.7571427.0812.5357110.635719.065.0171430.7328570.290.9257140.010.6057141.8142860.1314290.0814290.317143
Southeast_English35.5229.869.898.368.773.352.50.330.580.030.050.350.310.060.03
.25, .25, .5 proportions35.179428.0970811.020369.992447.7095834.4289880.4443450.391250.7903570.0683330.3178570.9167260.0990480.1465480.393988
.33, .33, .33 (equal) proportions36.6534928.4361110.515249.7780167.2594444.2329370.3481750.4250.7452380.0877780.2219050.617540.0882540.1682540.419603


I then did a linear regression analysis modeling different NorthWestern European populations with the three averaged ancient samples, and got the following results:

R-SquaredAnglo-SaxonCeltBell BeakerIntercept
Southeast_English0.9926430.090910.5868550.32388-0.01117
Southwest_English0.9872260.2915280.1722330.548788-0.0828
South_Dutch0.9778760.0159840.0697050.8637340.337549
Irish0.996459-0.234111.1347450.112403-0.08599
West_Scottish0.9976140.0355140.8839530.092273-0.077

They all seemed to be very good fits, with the West-Scottish having the highest R-square value. The South Dutch had the largest coefficient for the Bell Beakers; the Irish had the largest coefficient for the Hinxton Celts; and the SouthWest English had the largest coefficient for the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons, although its Bell Beaker coefficient was higher. And the Hinxton Celt Average had the largest coefficient for the SouthEast English.
 
Last edited:
I've been trying other populations from Eurogenes 15 with this model, and here are a couple more:

R-SquaredAnglo-SaxonCeltBell BeakerIntercept
Danish0.9956650.57223-0.025960.4527490.006023
North_Dutch0.9956060.672777-0.11850.450742-0.03299
These two seem to fit the model very well, and come out as a mixture of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons and the Bell Beakers, with a bit less of the Bell Beakers. Maybe they correspond to the Angle, Frisian, Jute and Danish Viking invasions of England. The West Scottish and Irish come out as the opposite, with the same components but the large majority being the Hinxton Celts.


Now here are the Germans:

R-SquaredAnglo-SaxonCeltBell BeakerIntercept
North_German0.991923-0.191320.6633820.5052570.151681
West_German0.9623781.570118-1.665840.9915260.692574
East_German0.9657770.686971-1.810432.148594-0.1685
Looking at the North Germans, I thought maybe the Saxons brought over a Hinxton Celtic-Bell Beaker mix. (The South Dutch and French were also high in Bell Beakers) But then, the West and East Germans had more of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon component and less of the Hinxton Celts -- although their models didn't fit as well.


Now for the Scandinavians:

R-SquaredAnglo-SaxonCeltBell BeakerIntercept
West_Norwegian0.9903162.251309-1.975250.757186-0.22386
Norwegian0.9866362.07966-2.04980.991973-0.14615
Icelandic0.9939880.742832-0.28220.58937-0.33384
Orcadian0.9980150.5472850.498763-0.067650.144096
Swedish0.9703091.96859-1.973261.019808-0.10206
The Norwegians, Icelanders and Swedes had lots of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons plus some Bell Beakers, and were low in Hinxton Celts. However, the intercepts were higher, thus suggesting additional components and confounding the results more. The Orcadians had a more even blend of the two Hinxton groups and had less of the Bell Beakers, which made sense to me, seeing how different from the rest of Britain they come out as on other genetic population measures. I don't see much evidence against them being largely a mixture of the West Norwegian and West Scottish samples. All the other populations I tried had lower R-squared values.
 
I've been trying other populations from Eurogenes 15 with this model, and here are a couple more:

R-SquaredAnglo-SaxonCeltBell BeakerIntercept
Danish0.9956650.57223-0.025960.4527490.006023
North_Dutch0.9956060.672777-0.11850.450742-0.03299
These two seem to fit the model very well, and come out as a mixture of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons and the Bell Beakers, with a bit less of the Bell Beakers. Maybe they correspond to the Angle, Frisian, Jute and Danish Viking invasions of England. The West Scottish and Irish come out as the opposite, with the same components but the large majority being the Hinxton Celts.


Now here are the Germans:

R-SquaredAnglo-SaxonCeltBell BeakerIntercept
North_German0.991923-0.191320.6633820.5052570.151681
West_German0.9623781.570118-1.665840.9915260.692574
East_German0.9657770.686971-1.810432.148594-0.1685
Looking at the North Germans, I thought maybe the Saxons brought over a Hinxton Celtic-Bell Beaker mix. (The South Dutch and French were also high in Bell Beakers) But then, the West and East Germans had more of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon component and less of the Hinxton Celts -- although their models didn't fit as well.


Now for the Scandinavians:

R-SquaredAnglo-SaxonCeltBell BeakerIntercept
West_Norwegian0.9903162.251309-1.975250.757186-0.22386
Norwegian0.9866362.07966-2.04980.991973-0.14615
Icelandic0.9939880.742832-0.28220.58937-0.33384
Orcadian0.9980150.5472850.498763-0.067650.144096
Swedish0.9703091.96859-1.973261.019808-0.10206
The Norwegians, Icelanders and Swedes had lots of the Hinxton Anglo-Saxons plus some Bell Beakers, and were low in Hinxton Celts. However, the intercepts were higher, thus suggesting additional components and confounding the results more. The Orcadians had a more even blend of the two Hinxton groups and had less of the Bell Beakers, which made sense to me, seeing how different from the rest of Britain they come out as on other genetic population measures. I don't see much evidence against them being largely a mixture of the West Norwegian and West Scottish samples. All the other populations I tried had lower R-squared values.

interesting ty
 
If LP was at very low frequencies and then increased dramatically to 70%+ along the Atlantic coast then might whoever had LP initially have benefited from a huge founder effect?

I'm interested but don't understand well here - could you tell me what you call LP please (I missed something?)
 
I'm interested but don't understand well here - could you tell me what you call LP please (I missed something?)

Yes, LP = milk drinking.

It was assumed previously that either neolithic farmers or steppe pastoralists brought it to the Atlantic fringe in sizable frequencies and it expanded from there but so far it's not being found among the farmers at all and only in very low frequencies among the steppenwolfs (IIRC one corded ware and one BB and a group in Iberia near the Basques).

So if, wherever it came from, it only existed at frequencies of c. 1% until it arrived at the Atlantic coast and then dramatically expanded along the Atlantic coast then either it happened fast or slow. If it happened fast then that could imply a very dramatic founder effect.

So possibly not a migration wave in itself but 1% of a wave that had a lucky gene (for that environment) which led to them having a higher TFR than their neighbors.

This is in response to JS Bach's point

Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more to modern Western Europeans than we give them credit for.

If the frequency of LP among the people who arrived at the Atlantic coast was tiny, 1-2% for example, then a lot of the homogeneity of western Europe might be because of that 1-2% founder effect.
 
Yes, LP = milk drinking.

It was assumed previously that either neolithic farmers or steppe pastoralists brought it to the Atlantic fringe in sizable frequencies and it expanded from there but so far it's not being found among the farmers at all and only in very low frequencies among the steppenwolfs (IIRC one corded ware and one BB and a group in Iberia near the Basques).


So if, wherever it came from, it only existed at frequencies of c. 1% until it arrived at the Atlantic coast and then dramatically expanded along the Atlantic coast then either it happened fast or slow. If it happened fast then that could imply a very dramatic founder effect.

So possibly not a migration wave in itself but 1% of a wave that had a lucky gene (for that environment) which led to them having a higher TFR than their neighbors.

This is in response to JS Bach's point



If the frequency of LP among the people who arrived at the Atlantic coast was tiny, 1-2% for example, then a lot of the homogeneity of western Europe might be because of that 1-2% founder effect.

Thanks Greying Wanderer
that said, I stay very often amazed in front of these founder effects - except for a very advantageous gene submitted to strong straightforwards selection pressure, I consider it as very unexpected (not "impossible") event in already well populated regions - we have to imagine empty regions but Atlantic regions were rather the opposite of that I think


 
Thanks Greying Wanderer
that said, I stay very often amazed in front of these founder effects - except for a very advantageous gene submitted to strong straightforwards selection pressure, I consider it as very unexpected (not "impossible") event in already well populated regions - we have to imagine empty regions but Atlantic regions were rather the opposite of that I think

Yes it does seem very dramatic but the fact remains *if* the rate of LP among ancient dna remains at the 1-2% mark then there must (?) be a dramatic founder effect in populations that are now 90%+.

edit:

for example was Niall (or his wife)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages

particularly tough or particularly LP?

edit:

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/recent-radiation-of-r-m269-males-in.html
 
Last edited:
I post that here, even if it could be placed in an anthropology thread -
we are sepaking in more than a thread of the affinities of Yamanya people - maybe are you aware of it but I mention here the Aleksey KAZARNITSKY
 
... KAZARNITSKY 's paper (sorry):On the Bilological Distinctness of the Pit Grave (Yamnaya) People in the Northwestern Caspian - Cranial Evidence
as very often I am not fully statisfied by this kind of paper where no grouping typology is proposed, only means and distances with principal composants (lack of precious details): the new mode in anthropology - but there are some things spite that:
shortly, the paper shows the Yamnaya Culture sharing population were not homogenous, at least the N-W Caspian (Kalmykia) one is well distinct from the more northern and largely spred other Pit Grave ones, owing to the Neolithic (but not commonly 'mediter') people of Lower Dniepr region more than to any other predecessors, and well distinct too from the Armenian and Maykop contemporaneous populations, spite a "Pan-Armenian" paper we red sometime ago -
some other good points can be obtained from this paper concerning the links of Sredny Stog and Khvalinsk with a different population of the Mesolithic (resurgence) and with other Pit Grave culture sites (# Kalmykia) and the demic changes in this region (N-Caucasus Pontic steppes, and even more noerthernly) between Mesolithic and Neolithic (>> 2500 BC) -
so what we say (autosomes, Y-DNA, mt-DNA) about Yamnaya has to be cautiously looked at according to sites -
 
The EEF found in germany in the haak paper must surely only have come form north of the Zargos mountains, maybe south-caucasus, because no J or E farmers have been found in Germany.
unless they ( J and E ) where happy to stay in the levant and arabian peninsula


answering SILE and ALAN
we lack big enough samples of Late Neolithic people in Eastern (and Western) Balkans to be sure of our thoughts -(or I ignore it) - but I think the metals ages (early enough in E-Balkans) saw a new wave of southerners partly different from the "danubian" and "cardial" first EEF, passed there across Anatolia but coming from farther East- it would be the cause of 'west-asian-c
 
sorry-
it could be the cause of 'west-asian-caucasus' form poor for 'gedrosia', and present today in Southeastern Europe when it was absent during the plain Neolithic there - but it does not evocate a Yamnaya nor any other I-Ean colonization through North the Caspian See, at first sight - for language I don't risk any bet -
 
The autosomal dna for the R1b-U106 individual who lived 3736 years ago on the Southern tip of the Swedish peninsula is now available. This is the oldest U106 sample I’m aware of. Today U106 peaks in North Holland, if I’m not mistaken, and is pretty common in England as well – where I believe my U106 patrilineal ancestors came from.

The Eurogenes K15 results gave me some surprises:

98.44% of the genes came from the first 5 of the 15 categories: North Sea, Atlantic, Baltic, Eastern Euro, and West Med. And another 1.07% was South Asian. This was like the older Motala 12, Loschbour and La Brana 1 individuals in that way, although with different proportions of those components and the older samples didn’t have any of the West Med component, which today peaks in Sardinians.

There was no West Asian component. I thought there would be some Yamna / Corded Ware influence there, thus leaving at least a trace of the West Asian component, but no there wasn’t any! In the table below I averaged the seven Yamna samples and 4 Corded Ware samples from a Eurogenes K15 spreadsheet and got 18.85% West Asian for the Yamna, and 11.2% West Asian for the Corded Ware samples. And the Bell Beaker average even had 5.02% West Asian. The Hinxton Celt average (samples 1 and 4) had 4.45% West Asian, which was more than the Hinxton Anglo-Saxon average (samples 2, 3 and 5) of 3.24. Todays Swedes have 2.54% of the West Asian component. How did this Swedish U106 guy miss out on all the fun?

There was no East Med component either, of which today Swedes and SouthEast English have 1.06% and 2.5% of, respectively. Many ancient European farmers had this component. Stuttgart had 25.91% of it, and Gokhem 2 had 4.66%.

This makes me think this U106 guy may not have spoken a Germanic language or have had a Norse religion. I suspect those things probably came with the West Asian component. Although I think he may have had smaller parts of those things. But if that were the case, what Y-haplogroup did those conquering tribes have? Were they R1a, and then over time some leaders became U106 and I1?


Eurogenes_K15
Population
North_SeaAtlanticBalticEastern_EuroWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed_SeaSouth_AsianSoutheast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceanianNortheast_AfricanSub-Saharan
U106_Southern_
Sweden_3736_ybp
39.93%18.64%15.82%16.41%7.64%0001.07%0000.12%00.36%
Swedish39.3222.5815.5510.955.232.541.060.30.520.20.390.490.40.20.28
Norwegian39.7423.4713.2611.486.362.240.80.140.810.080.50.720.320.060.04
North_Swedish36.662115.7815.374.021.350.680.340.690.552.210.640.620.070.03
Motala1234.3610.0626.8727.500000000.970.2500
Loschbour29.6929.5731.498.31000000000.9300
La_Brana-129.0527.2627.7814.10.0100000001.800
Gokhem216.7427.713.78045.3404.660.7800000.980.010
Bell_Beaker_Avg30.7627.0812.5410.649.065.020.730.290.930.010.611.810.130.080.32
Corded_Ware_Avg28.4419.0115.3819.300.0011.200.000.003.450.000.122.070.430.620.00
Yamnaya_Average24.734.0513.0528.680.0018.850.000.005.890.000.004.570.030.000.15
Hinxton_AS_Avg41.3728.598.859.486.163.240.310.280.360.230.000.030.130.270.69
Hinxton_Celt_Avg37.8329.6410.169.226.564.450.010.710.950.020.060.010.000.150.26
Southeast_English35.5229.869.898.368.773.352.500.330.580.030.050.350.310.060.03
North_Dutch37.6327.0912.329.196.803.691.510.770.370.040.080.210.200.080.04
Ust'-Ishim011.2403.084.82003.3630.7615.252.022.210.9610.086.22
Kostenki_1418.8112.396.529.719.77005.717.421.330.664.745.115.192.66
Mal'ta15.9106.5438.02000020.310018.620.1200.47
 
Last edited:
If I may add another thing: this Eurogenes K15 West Asian component seems to have appeared out of nowhere. I haven’t seen it in hardly any ancient samples that are dated before Yamnaya. And it's missing in Ust'-Ishim, Kostenki_14 and the Mal'ta boy. This is similar for the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b and to a lesser extent the West Asian component in Dodecad V3. I wonder if there was some isolated population (probably carrying some forms of y-dna R1) that then had a big population explosion with the Yamnaya people? -- Or maybe it will show up in ancient dna samples from parts of West- and Central Asia that we have yet to sample from.

Here are the Dodecad: K12b and V3 results for the R1b-U106 3,736 ybp Swedish fellow from Southern Sweden. He has none of the Caucasus component in Dodecad K12b, but he does have a substantial portion (3.83%) of the West Asian component from Dodecad V3:

Dodecad K12bDodecad V3
Gedrosia10.01%East_European16.69%
Siberian-West_European60.70%
Northwest_African-Mediterranean16.06%
Southeast_Asian-Neo_African0.61%
Atlantic_Med34.45%West_Asian3.83%
North_European54.19%South_Asian1.35%
South_Asian0.47%Northeast_Asian-
East_African-Southeast_Asian0.20%
Southwest_Asian-East_African-
East_Asian-Southwest_Asian-
Caucasus-Northwest_African-
Sub_Saharan0.86%Palaeo_African0.58%
 
Last edited:

This thread has been viewed 126287 times.

Back
Top