New map of the Atlantic admixture (Eurogenes K15)

[John Doe]

I think North Sea and East European are two sides of the same medal. So we should see them as one. Ashkenazis are heavily admixed with East European genes. So naturally taken both components together they should have more of it. Most of their East European DNA is probably North Sea like.

And most of AJ European genes seem to be in Atlantic and West Med component. I have almost no Atlantic. And less West Med but suprisingly more East Med. Also I have some of the ANI/South Asian (Gedrosia) genes just like Yamna.


Here are my results => http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post451225

I don't know... AJs plot next to Sicilians and Maltese according to the last test by Lazaridis. I Tested with Eurogenes K8 and I plot in southern Europe, apparently next to south Italians, according to Davidski.

[Maciamo]

Finns seem to have also HV0a1 which according to Wikipediais a sister branch of V. Familytree reports two HV0a1 sequences from Finland (inlandareas).

According to ”Mitochondrial DNA sequence variation inFinnish patients with matrilineal diabetes mellitus”, the Finnish HV0/V haplotypesare HV0a, V5, V7a, V8, V1a.

(Figure 1, http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...0500-5-350.pdf)

17-18th century Sámi samples (Chalmny-Varre) had a highfrequency of V7a. (https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.../1/02whole.pdf)

The mtDNA study on Tatar mtDNA is interesting in thisrespect as they say that ”we analyzed 32 published haplogroup V mitochondrialgenomes from populations of Finns and Saami and three novel genomes frompopulations of Russians and Czechs. As a result, we have found that threemtDNAs of Tatars fall into subcluster V1a that is very frequent among Finns. Itis noteworthy that Tatars and Finns share mtDNAs from this subcluster on alarge time span—from 7.9 and 2.8 ka ago (for complete genome and synonymousrates, respectively) for subcluster V1a to 0.85 ka ago and even less (forcomplete genome and synonymous rates) for small subcluster V1a1a1 (table 3). Inaddition, analysis of subcluster V3a demonstrates that divergence betweenRussian/Finnish mtDNAs is estimated as 4.8 and 7.9 ka ago (for complete genomeand synonymous rates, respectively).
Based on complete mtDNA variation of eastern Europeans (for40 mitochondrial genomes from populations of Finns, Saami, Tatars, Russians,and Czechs), haplogroup HV0a dates to ∼14.5 ka ago, fitting the time ofexpansion from European glacial refuge zones (the Franco-Cantabrian, Balkan,and Ukrainian ones). Meanwhile, haplogroup V (39 genomes of eastern Europeans)dates to 11.8 ka ago for complete genome rate and to 6.9 ka ago for synonymousrate, that is, somewhat less than previously reported dating results forhaplogroup V in Europe—13.7 (12.1–15.2) ka ago for complete genome rate and12.2 (10.0–14.3) ka ago for synonymous rate (Soares et al. 2009).”
(http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/10/2220.full)
It is interesting that HV0 is so frequent in Eastern Europeconsidering its postulated origin in Western Europe. According to the Tatar paper, the age of V3ais quite old in Eastern Europe (divergence between Russian/Finnish clusters is 4.8-7.9ka).

Thanks for sharing. This paper does show the branching of HV0a in the graph, but nowhere does it indicate that HV0a was actually found in the population, nor at what frequency. It's of course possible that HV0a is found in Finland, since only a tiny percentage of the European population has had their mtDNA tested. However based on the data I have, if HV0a is found in Finland it is only at trace frequencies (<1%).

EDIT : I have checked the FTDNA Projects for HV0 and for V. They do have 4 HV0a members from Finland (and 30 V members). Considering that haplogroup HV0+V have a frequency of 7% in Finland, the frequency of HV0 itself is about 0.75%, which is what I expected (<1%).

The frequency of HV0 (including V) in Volga-Ural is thefollowing: Mari 11, Chuvash 7.3, Karelians 6.5, Tatars 5.1/3.9, Russians 5.0, Mordvine4.9, Bashkirs 3.2.
By the way, preV seems to have been detected also in ancientHungarians with a frequency of 3.9%.

Many studies report HV0 and V together, as they can only be distinguished from one another by testing the coding region (more expensive test). That is why I made a map of HV0+V as there just wasn't enough data only for V. The Uralic people of the Volga region share essentially the same subclades of V as the Finns. I have seen confirmed data at least for V1a1 and V7a.

[Maciamo]

Hay Maciamo; or any others who can fill me in on this.


I noticed you mentioned in your Haplogroup R1B report that the Paleolithic R1B people aka Mammoth Hunters had the mtdna markers of U5 and V also shared with Uralic tribes and Mesolithic Europeans. I'm also intrigued that Mtdna Haplogroup U5 and V have ancestral ties to the Middle east; Mtdna U and HV yet I'm supposedly getting 30.5% Atlantic Dna/Mtdna V clan as a Celto-Germanic and I would like to get enlighten on this matter if that is okay with you

That's for reminding me of that. I am getting doubts about mtDNA V being one of the original maternal lineages of R1b tribes. I came to this conclusion due to several elements:

- Haplogroup V is found alongside U5 in North Africa and in cattle herding communities of the Sahel, where haplogroup R1b-V88 is often quite common (Hausa, Fulani).

- Haplogroup V (V7 and V15) is one of the typical European lineages that has been found in Armenia and Azerbaijan, which is close to the Neolithic homeland of R1b cattle herders.

- No mtDNA V has been found among Mesolithic or Neolithic Europeans to date, which suggests a later diffusion.


However the modern data points at a Middle Eastern origin of haplogroup HV0 and a probable expansion of the V branch from Northwest Africa to Iberia then to the rest of Europe. It's hard to reconcile the two datasets. Actually the only way to reconcile the two is to assume that haplogroup HV0 and V both originated in the Middle East, and that V was indeed found at least (but perhaps not exclusively) among Neolithic R1b cattle herders, and that some V subclades spread to Iberia via North Africa with R1b-V88, while others spread across the Caucasus with R1b-M269 and later Indo-Europeans. So far haplogroup V hasn't been found in Yamna, but it was found in Corded Ware and Unetice.

Interestingly haplogroup V seems virtually absent from Central and South Asia, which at least means it wasn't linked to the Indo-Iranian branch (R1a-Z93) of the Indo-Europeans.

[Twilight]

That's for reminding me of that. I am getting doubts about mtDNA V being one of the original maternal lineages of R1b tribes. I came to this conclusion due to several elements:

- Haplogroup V is found alongside U5 in North Africa and in cattle herding communities of the Sahel, where haplogroup R1b-V88 is often quite common (Hausa, Fulani).

- Haplogroup V (V7 and V15) is one of the typical European lineages that has been found in Armenia and Azerbaijan, which is close to the Neolithic homeland of R1b cattle herders.

- No mtDNA V has been found among Mesolithic or Neolithic Europeans to date, which suggests a later diffusion.


However the modern data points at a Middle Eastern origin of haplogroup HV0 and a probable expansion of the V branch from Northwest Africa to Iberia then to the rest of Europe. It's hard to reconcile the two datasets. Actually the only way to reconcile the two is to assume that haplogroup HV0 and V both originated in the Middle East, and that V was indeed found at least (but perhaps not exclusively) among Neolithic R1b cattle herders, and that some V subclades spread to Iberia via North Africa with R1b-V88, while others spread across the Caucasus with R1b-M269 and later Indo-Europeans. So far haplogroup V hasn't been found in Yamna, but it was found in Corded Ware and Unetice.

Interestingly haplogroup V seems virtually absent from Central and South Asia, which at least means it wasn't linked to the Indo-Iranian branch (R1a-Z93) of the Indo-Europeans.

You're most welcome :)

Interesting, considering that the Maikop and South Yamna Cultures are made up of R1B and G2a clans predominately and that the Bud Dniester Culture; R1a is negatve of G2a men. I have a hunch that if haplogroup V might have been a native clan of the R1B Cattle Herders then mtdna V would have originated from the Caucasian Neolithic Culture; G2A clan although I could be wrong.

[Greying Wanderer]

What peaks in Basques and Irish which might have spread from the Atlantic to the east?

[Twilight]

What peaks in Basques and Irish which might have spread from the Atlantic to the east?

Let's not forget that R1B haplotype was once considered to have originated from CroMagons in the Isles and Basques as well as V is considered to be in the present day; due to a saturated R1B and V haplotypes in the area.

[Melancon]

Let's not forget that R1B haplotype was once considered to have originated from CroMagons in the Isles and Basques as well as V is considered to be in the present day; due to a saturated R1B and V haplotypes in the area.

This is most likely not true. R1b was born in Central Asia. Read Maciamo's article: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ues-become-R1b - How did the Basques become R1b?

[Greying Wanderer]

Let's not forget that R1B haplotype was once considered to have originated from CroMagons in the Isles and Basques as well as V is considered to be in the present day; due to a saturated R1B and V haplotypes in the area.

I was thinking LP.

People from the east arrive in the Atlantic region - LP spreads because cattle are ideal for the Atlantic bio-region - LP spreads back east.

bio-regions:

http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-ma...image_original


LP:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-k4oPZEUauf...equencies..png

[Twilight]

This is most likely not true. R1b was born in Central Asia. Read Maciamo's article: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ues-become-R1b - How did the Basques become R1b?

And that is my point, we can't just assume that the Atlantic Admixture originated from the Basque/Ireland area just because the gene has saturated the area's population.

And neither should we assume that R1B or V clans spread from Western Europe to an Eastern Migration

[Melancon]

And that is my point, we can't just assume that the Atlantic Admixture originated from the Basque/Ireland area just because the gene has saturated the area's population.

And neither should we assume that R1B or V clans spread from Western Europe to an Eastern Migration

Uh, R1b originated in Central Asia and spread into Western Europe.

[Twilight]

Uh, R1b originated in Central Asia and spread into Western Europe.

I feel attacked so just to cover my tracts I'm agreeing with you :) and you have assisted my point. I'm not disagreeing with you in any way

[Melancon]

I feel attacked so just to cover my tracts I'm agreeing with you :) and you have assisted my point. I'm not disagreeing with you in any way

The Atlantid admixture is likely from pre-R1b neolithic individuals; who were most likely I2 and to a lesser extent; G2a.

[Greying Wanderer]

If LP developed along the Atlantic coast then it wouldn't matter where the haplogroups originally came from. The dna of the people who developed LP could gradually spread eastwards.

[Twilight]

The Atlantid admixture is likely from pre-R1b neolithic individuals; who were most likely I2 and to a lesser extent; G2a.

Probably, both haplotypes have close historical contact with the middle east, Well see. :)

[Twilight]

If LP developed along the Atlantic coast then it wouldn't matter where the haplogroups originally came from. The dna of the people who developed LP could gradually spread eastwards.

Any V subclades come to mind? :)

[Greying Wanderer]

Any V subclades come to mind? :)

Lactose Tolerance

[Twilight]

Lactose Tolerance

I'm so sorry to non this but I don't quite se a connection with the Atlantic admixture and Lactose persistence

[Greying Wanderer]

I'm so sorry to non this but I don't quite se a connection with the Atlantic admixture and Lactose persistence

The distribution is practically identical.

[Llandeilo]

Hi, I'm a newbie and very happy to have found this group.

I'm Welsh, with very many generations, on nearly all lines, coming from 2 Welsh counties, I would have expected a higher Atlantic admixture. It seems I do get higher numbers on other tools.

North Sea: 41.20%
Atlantic: 23.81%
Baltic: 9.69%
Eastern Euro: 8.93%
West Med: 11.59%
West Asian: 2.86%
South Asian: 0.73%
Siberian: 0.61%
Amerindian: 0.11%
Oceanian: 0.47%

Although, when I look at the other break outs using Eurogenes K15, I seem to be predominantly West Norwegian.

[gervais]

Welcome Llandeilo!

I think "Atlantic" in K15, is a mixture of two different components origin: North Atlantic (Origin WHG) + Iberian (EEF), which gives it a hardly understandable aspect in K15.
In clear, i think "Atlantic" did not exist!

You should try K36.
It is possible that you have a higher rate for North Atlantic and low for Iberian.
For comparison, in K36, British have about 17% for North Atlantic and 12% for Iberian

[Tchek]

I'm HV0 and have Atlantic 31% on K15

[Greying Wanderer]

Welcome Llandeilo!

I think "Atlantic" in K15, is a mixture of two different components origin: North Atlantic (Origin WHG) + Iberian (EEF), which gives it a hardly understandable aspect in K15.
In clear, i think "Atlantic" did not exist!

You should try K36.
It is possible that you have a higher rate for North Atlantic and low for Iberian.
For comparison, in K36, British have about 17% for North Atlantic and 12% for Iberian

I think "Atlantic" represents the expansion of LP people after the neolithic from a source in Cantabria/Brittany

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/conten...-admixture.png

and "North Sea" represents the same thing but from a second source around the North Sea/Scandinavia

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso...hwest_European

both were particular local mixtures of paleo HG/neolithic farmer/IE DNA imo so neither represent base populations but those particular local mixtures had an explosive expansion along the Atlantic coast at a particular moment in time as a result of LP and a slower eastward drift over time after that initial explosion.

If you add the two components together (Atlantic + NW Euro) the combined value more or less maps onto modern LP levels.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7VSAmkCAAMMS8c.png:large

[MOESAN]

it's difficult to compare 'atlantic' in different K's: K12, K15, K36 etc... it's confusing I think
for K15, if I'm right, 'atlantic' appears about more than 12% in Ust'Ishim and Kostenki-14 (>30000 BC and >20000 BC) and it disappears almost completley in HG Samara man. It regains some strength (about 5%) in later Yamnaya Samara. Question: is this the same 'atlantic'? did people from Finland or Karelia get southwards meanwhile without 'atlantic' or almost, and Central Asia 'atlantic' arrived or came back into Samara at Yamanaya times, or is it a West to East introgression of North Atlantic North Sea people in the Steppes???
according to periods, the moves changed direction. Archeology seems attesting migrations after LGM from France-Cantabria complex to NorthEast Europe and maybe very late even during Neolithic South the Baltic until North Russia. these last expansions could have leaven some spotty populations differing in big proportions from the previous ones. So a part of 'atlantic' DNA could have reached some tribes far in North-East Europe. But some of the MODERN 'atlantic' aDNA seems less WHG and more 'west-med': : could the megalithers (like the Long Barrows people having influenced Funnelbeaker C.) be responsible of an addition of aDNA (more of intruding 'west-med' + less of ancient WHG)? the question is not so ridiculous and archeology changes by time with new discoveries coming to complete the patchwork; the physical anthropology, so mocked by some people, doesn't contradict these facts concerning some places, even if I take it as a complement of knowledge, not as the main tool of it. Some of our old certitudes have bursted off. the East to West moves so typical of the I-Ean and others invasions can have dissimulated some opposite moves, less important. the ABO (O, rhesus -) distributions in Europe support partly the same scenario even if this tool is very unprecise sometimes. the m-tH distributions is interesting too.

[clarbg]

I got 29.42% Atlantic.

[New Englander]

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.55
2 Atlantic 19
3 West_Med 15.02
4 West_Asian 12.71
5 North_Sea 10.29
6 Eastern_Euro 7.04
7 Baltic 5.63
8 Red_Sea 4.42
9 South_Asian 1.49
10 Amerindian 0.55
11 Sub-Saharan 0.3