Autosomal results of Neolithic genome from Iberia

ElHorsto said:
To me it rather looks like a ~50% population change happened in NE europe since Corded Ware, not only because Gedrosia disappeared, but also the 27% Eurogenes15 'Atlantic' dropped to about 12%, and 'Baltic' increased from 13% to >21%. Finally also R1b lineages are very sparse in NE Europe compared to the rest.
One reason is probably the migration of mesolithic scandinavian hunter-gathers who increased I2a and WHG (~'Baltic') in NE europe. I also wonder how densely populated this region was. If sparse, then populations can be altered more easily.
Why Gedrosia disappeared completely though, is not completely explained yet.
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That theory makes some sense to me as well, as I've been saying for a long time. I think there was probably migration from the north post Yamnaya, but I also think it needs to be remembered that Corded Ware moved northwest off the more southern regions. It was only later that it moved east and incorporated what I think will turn out to be more EHG like people who were living in the forest steppe, EHG like people who probably had next to no Gedrosia. (I think it has to be kept in mind that the populations in eastern Europe were probably on a cline from north to south. Here we're talking about Yamna, which was to the south and a population-Corded Ware-related to Yamnaya.)While I know that some people will find it disappointing, it may be that Corded Ware really doesn't equal modern northeast European or even eastern European. It just isn't a very good match for those populations.

(The recent paper on these forest steppe populations, which discusses this movement east by Corded Ware is discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ers-in-NW-Russia-R1a1-M17?p=451213#post451213)

Since we've been talking about K12b, here are the K12b figures for Corded Ware, Lithuanians and Russians. In both of the modern populations, North Euro increased by 20 points and Gedrosia dropped by 20 points. Atlantic Med dropped by 7 points in both, and in Lithuanians, Caucasus stayed about the same, but in Russians, it increased.
Corded Ware:

  • 50.54% North_European
  • 21.94% Gedrosia
  • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
  • 6.82% Caucasus
  • 0.22% South_Asian
  • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% Siberian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan

Lithuanians:
77.1 North European
0 Gedrosia
13.7 Atlantic Med
8 Caucasus
1 S.W.Asian
.1 S Asian

Russians:
66.5 North Euro
.2 Gedrosia
13.1 Atlantic Med
14.3 Caucasus
.8 South Asian
.6 SW Asian
0 E.African
1.2 E.Asian
.1 Northwest African
2.7 Siberian
.4S.E.Asian
0 SSA

The Germans actually seem like a better fit with Corded Ware:
48.2 North Euro
7.3 Gedrosia
33 Atlantic Med
9.8 Caucasus
1.7 S.W.Asian

In their case it seems like the rise in Atlantic Med and S.W. Asian cut into the Gedrosia.

I think those more central European populations were formed by different migrations, which may have started off from the steppe at an earlier time, and they also probably experienced more admixture from the prior Neolithic farming communities.
 
LeBrok said:
This is what I think too, Northern Europe got population replacement up to 50%, or even higher in some locations, from the IE invaders. For some reason the farther South we go the less replacement there was. I guess, it would be due to higher population density of farmers in the south.
When we look at Corded Ware samples from Germany with 20% of Gedrosia, and compare it to 26 Gedrosia of Yamnaya, it would suggest that 4 in 5 farmers/locals were replaced in Germany. We can assume it was a similar case throughout of most CW territory. Whatever it really was, the rate of replacement was rather high. Since then the location of Bronze Age samples are very close to Modern Ones on PCA plot. Meaning that there was not much of replacement or a mixing since. That's why it is more perplexing to see Gedrosia evaporate completely from today's Eastern Europe, since Bronze Age. There is a similar story with Caucasian admixture in West Europe. All these clues together give an impression that there is something amiss with calculators of Gedrosia and Caucasus admixtures.
Click to expand...

You have started to convince me that some of the Gedrosia might really get eaten up by Northeast European, the same with Caucasus in Northwest European.

Remember Northeast Europeans have equally as much ANE as Northwest Europeans (if not even slightly more). We know ANE is allot more prevelant in Gedrosia (~50%) than Caucasus(~20%).

As we know Gedrosia peaks in Northwest Europeans with up to 12%. If we know take into account that most of Northwest European ANE is connected to Gedrosia and some of it to Northwest European there.

Than we must come to the conclusion that most ANE in Northeast Europe is connected to the Northeast European and just some to the Caucasus component.

So what do Gedrosia and Northeast European have in common? High ANE!

So is it really falce to assume that Gedrosia merged in East Europe with Northeast European component and therefore "dissapeared". While Caucasus, which pre Bronze Age was heavy in West Europe merged with Northwest European component and therefore "dissapeared".

I mean look at it, today it is completely the opposite how it was in ancient times. fomer Caucasus rich West Europe becomes Gedrosia rich and former Gedrosia rich East Europe becomes Caucasus rich.
 
Alan said:
So is it really falce to assume that Gedrosia merged in East Europe with Northeast European component and therefore "dissapeared". While Caucasus, which pre Bronze Age was heavy in West Europe merged with Northwest European component and therefore "dissapeared".

I mean look at it, today it is completely the opposite how it was in ancient times. fomer Caucasus rich West Europe becomes Gedrosia rich and former Gedrosia rich East Europe becomes Caucasus rich.
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This is exactly why we should stick to ancient basal admixtures in discription of composition of today's societies. To invent modern admixtures or invent ancient admixture based on modern (mixed) populations muds the water a lot.

I think at the end of the day we will find few very defined basal ones, like ENF (Natufian?), WHG, Caucasus (Kostenki HG/pastoralist?), Gedrosia (Central Asian HG?), EHG (East European HG), and of course few others from Asia and Africa that we don't know yet.
I think some of the basal once were trapped in separate areas during LGM for 10 ky or so developing unique genomes. When Ice Age ended they started building in numbers, expanding and mixing. It will be important to get a snapshot of these genomes as they were about 10 kya, before mixing started.
 
LeBrok said:
Gedrosia must have been quite to the East in Asia. First farmers didn't meet Gedrosia for first few thousand years they lived in Middle East. And we know farmers spread, traded and moved around a lot. They've surely met people with Caucasus admixture and mixed heavily with them, but they didn't even get a smidge of Gedrosia. It means that Gedrosia was far enough not to manage to spread by bride exchange, invasions, or slow radiation from the center of it, or however genes manage to spread.
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I'm tempted to agree with you, on this question
 
Angela said:
That theory makes some sense to me as well, as I've been saying for a long time. I think there was probably migration from the north post Yamnaya, but I also think it needs to be remembered that Corded Ware moved northwest off the more southern regions. It was only later that it moved east and incorporated what I think will turn out to be more EHG like people who were living in the forest steppe, EHG like people who probably had next to no Gedrosia. (I think it has to be kept in mind that the populations in eastern Europe were probably on a cline from north to south. Here we're talking about Yamna, which was to the south and a population-Corded Ware-related to Yamnaya.)While I know that some people will find it disappointing, it may be that Corded Ware really doesn't equal modern northeast European or even eastern European. It just isn't a very good match for those populations.

(The recent paper on these forest steppe populations, which discusses this movement east by Corded Ware is discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ers-in-NW-Russia-R1a1-M17?p=451213#post451213)

Since we've been talking about K12b, here are the K12b figures for Corded Ware, Lithuanians and Russians. In both of the modern populations, North Euro increased by 20 points and Gedrosia dropped by 20 points. Atlantic Med dropped by 7 points in both, and in Lithuanians, Caucasus stayed about the same, but in Russians, it increased.
Corded Ware:

  • 50.54% North_European
  • 21.94% Gedrosia
  • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
  • 6.82% Caucasus
  • 0.22% South_Asian
  • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% Siberian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan

Lithuanians:
77.1 North European
0 Gedrosia
13.7 Atlantic Med
8 Caucasus
1 S.W.Asian
.1 S Asian

Russians:
66.5 North Euro
.2 Gedrosia
13.1 Atlantic Med
14.3 Caucasus
.8 South Asian
.6 SW Asian
0 E.African
1.2 E.Asian
.1 Northwest African
2.7 Siberian
.4S.E.Asian
0 SSA

The Germans actually seem like a better fit with Corded Ware:
48.2 North Euro
7.3 Gedrosia
33 Atlantic Med
9.8 Caucasus
1.7 S.W.Asian

In their case it seems like the rise in Atlantic Med and S.W. Asian cut into the Gedrosia.

I think those more central European populations were formed by different migrations, which may have started off from the steppe at an earlier time, and they also probably experienced more admixture from the prior Neolithic farming communities.
Click to expand...

the 'gedrosia' question is not a light one - the drop down of 'gedrosia' in N-E Europe can be linked to maybe not emigrations from North but rather an osmosis: maybe the Y-R1a of proto-Balto-Slavic tribes created the Baltic culture by incorporating previous WHG-EHG (already partly ANE?) populations: here persons with a good knowledge of mt-DNA could confirm or infirm this "theory" - the Battle Axes cultures of N-E Europe seems a "pupil" of the Corded culture, a mix - true Corded were previously more southern, along an axis NW-SE - yet, later proto-Slavs had incorporated some WHG of Carpathians, surely without 'gedrosia' - physically true 'Corded' men were distinct for the most (spite a bit of 'brünn') from the WHG populations more present among NE inhabitants ('brünnoid'+'cro-magnoid' plus some WHG without 'gedrosia' nor ANE) - Corded were a specific population, from Steppes (but not the WHOLE steppes)
 
ElHorsto said:
To me it rather looks like a ~50% population change happened in NE europe since Corded Ware, not only because Gedrosia disappeared, but also the 27% Eurogenes15 'Atlantic' dropped to about 12%, and 'Baltic' increased from 13% to >21%. Finally also R1b lineages are very sparse in NE Europe compared to the rest.
One reason is probably the migration of mesolithic scandinavian hunter-gathers who increased I2a and WHG (~'Baltic') in NE europe. I also wonder how densely populated this region was. If sparse, then populations can be altered more easily.
Why Gedrosia disappeared completely though, is not completely explained yet.
Click to expand...

I am not so sure that the whole population of NE Europe changed so dramatically since the Mesolithic. What we know is that the population of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Karelia changed a lot, but I already knew that many years ago since R1b left the steppe, and N1c1 moved into the Volga-Ural, Karelia and Finland.

However central western European Russia and Belarus probably didn't change so radically. Obviously they inherited some Near Eastern genes from Neolithic farmers (Cucuteni-Trypillian expansion ?) and some gene flow from the Yamna R1b. But apart from that they remained fairly unmixed, and they re-exported their admixtures high in Baltic and East_Euro to the old Yamna territory and Karelia.
 
Alan said:
EHG had also this Gedrosia component. So bride exchange theory is finito, out and destroyed.

The only explanation where R1b could have spred from is Taurus_Zagros/Elbruz mountains or a region nearby, both EHG and farmer have only these components in common.

As I have explained in the past Gedrosia is 92% West Asian + 8% ANI thats what we see from the component break up.The reason why we see no Gedrosia in R1b the farmer is because this particular R1b sample belonged to a wave which had not yet diverged into Gedrosia (pastoralist).

Overall R1bs connection to Gedrosia can't be denied. Populations with the most basal clades of R1b, such as M343, m269 etc have all high frequency of Gedrosia. Gedrosia didn't come from the East. Gedrosia evolved somewhere probably in Western Asia.
Gedrosia peaks in Balochis who live in Southeastern Iran/West Pakistan which is situated in the Southeastern corner of West Aisa but they have settled there a few thousand years ago from Kurdistan. Thats what their oral traditions say and thats what their Northwest Iranian tongue indiciates (because Northwest Iranian tongue evolved in Kurdistan). So they might indiciate the ancient population of Kurdistan. I n every other direction from the Balochi tribes this component drops.


The whole point is R1b must have come from a place where ENF must have existed and been relatively dominant and at the same time had genes which were ancestral to Gedrosia and Caucasus, because that is exactly what all the R1b samples have in common.And in that case I see Kurdistan/Caucasus/Mesopotamia/Iran as most likely place. This is were Gedrosia meets Caucasus and at the same time the place were basal R1b m343 and R1a m420 is found.
Click to expand...

I'm ready to accept your explanations but somethings stay unclear to me:
'gedrosia' seems OLD and very largely spred in Central Asia for a very long time - not WestAsian (geographically speaking) at all...
it 's a problem concerning the place of origin -
Y-R1b, even if well present today around Kurdistan/Armenia and among some Caucasus small ethnies (drift?) would have been the standard haplo of a very racist clannic tribe having spred all around to very far places in Europe, Asia, Africa, almost without mixing with other male lignages (Y-G, Y-R1a, Y-J2...) on the road to vaste region of Europe (N-W by instance) - here I don't link by force Y-R1b to 'gedrosia', but I think what we know for now (it could change) tells us Y-R1b of Western Europe (the ones passed by land, the most numerous) travelled across East Eurasian regions where they had or picked 'gedrosia' bearers, and I don't see that near the Zagros, where apparently 'gedrosia' was absent in old times, before steppic invasions or penetrations of later periods, whatever these last bearers: Iranian I-Eans, Turkmens, even Mongols...
I've apriori no problem with our first Y-R1v being come from SOuth Caucasus, but for now it doesn't check the data: it could seem absurd, but simetimes I think seeing the contrary, Y-R1b intruding from North or South-East in South-Caucasus regions (but not native, again, to Zagros) -
It's a "reflex" answer, I'll try to look again at my notes (by example about Kostenki, Mal'ta, Ust'Ishim friends) -





 
Found Kostenki genome, interestingly no Caucasus but already some Gedrosia.
K12b

  • 26.45% North_European
  • 19.54% Atlantic_Med
  • 15.98% South_Asian
  • 11.83% Gedrosia
  • 6.59% Southeast_Asian
  • 4.92% East_African
  • 4.58% Southwest_Asian
  • 4.39% Sub_Saharan
  • 3.28% Siberian
  • 2.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.45% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Caucasus
PS. He was partially lactose tolerant.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/analyses-of-the-kostenki-14-genome/

His location was in European Russia, halfway between Moscow and Black Sea. The genome is very old, 40 ky, and possibly is not fully comparable with all admixtures. Some of them needed much longer to show up, to come to be fully formed. However, 0 Caucasus probably means that Caucasus was on the other side of Caucasus Mountains in Middle East, and probably not fully formed yet. Heavy mixture of ENF with Caucasus in early farmers alludes to closeness of these two on South Side of Caucasus Mountains, and lack of contact to HGs from the North.

Gedrosia is rather high in Kostenki (though probably also not fully formed yet), and it is at similar level as Gedrosia in Samara samples. As we know it is completely missing from first farmers from Near East. For these reasons, I'm going to move epicenter of Gedrosia from SE off Caspian to NE off Caspian, Kazakhstan. Knowing that Mal'ta genome contained some Gedrosia too, and Gedrosia containing ANE, it places both in Central Asia contact area. It doesn't seem there was a contact between them and area where ENF and Caucasus were formed in Near East.


His all Atlantic Med, might mean WHG component.
 
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Here is KO1, the hunter gatherer from Hungary, Early Neolithic. Thanks to Genetiker again:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/analyses-of-an-early-neolithic-hungarian-genome/
K12b

  • 70.14% North_European
  • 27.50% Atlantic_Med
  • 1.72% Sub_Saharan
  • 0.40% Siberian
  • 0.21% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.02% East_Asian
  • 0.01% East_African
  • 0.00% Caucasus
  • 0.00% Gedrosia
  • 0.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% South_Asian
  • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
Looks like there is a big portion of hunter gatherer in Atlantic Med admixture. Again some history of Sub Saharan Africa is showing in this hunter, WHG. Neither Caucasus (nor ENF) nor Gedrosia was reaching to Europe Center at this time, well, before Neolithic farmers showed up.

 
Then the Farmers came, KO2 from Hungary:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/analyses-of-a-second-early-neolithic-hungarian-genome/
K12b

  • 47.77% Atlantic_Med
  • 27.46% Caucasus
  • 13.95% Southwest_Asian
  • 10.17% Northwest_African
  • 0.60% East_Asian
  • 0.05% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% Gedrosia
  • 0.00% North_European
  • 0.00% Siberian
  • 0.00% South_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan
Half of Atlantic med, all Caucasus, Southwest Asian and Northwest Africa belongs to ENF admixture. Is Southwest Asian a Bedouin signal? This farmer might have up to 25% WHG admixture.


Stuttgart is very similar:
K12b

  • 53.68% Atlantic_Med
  • 29.29% Caucasus
  • 10.54% Southwest_Asian
  • 5.23% Northwest_African
  • 0.51% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.47% North_European
  • 0.27% Sub_Saharan
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Gedrosia
  • 0.00% Siberian
  • 0.00% South_Asian
 
Samara HG:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/analyses-of-a-hunter-gatherer-genome-from-samara/
K12b

  • 73.86% North_European
  • 12.98% Gedrosia
  • 10.00% Siberian
  • 2.59% South_Asian
  • 0.56% East_African
  • 0.01% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Atlantic_Med
  • 0.00% Caucasus
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan


Karelia:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/analyses-of-a-mesolithic-genome-from-karelia/
K12b

  • 80.67% North_European
  • 12.06% Siberian
  • 6.05% Gedrosia
  • 1.21% South_Asian
  • 0.00% Atlantic_Med
  • 0.00% Caucasus
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan
Gedrosia is falling in Karelia HG, farther from Epicenter.
 
Yamna:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30944-Autosomal-results-of-Neolithic-genome-from-Iberia/page2
K12b

  • 60.18% North_European
  • 26.29% Gedrosia
  • 4.89% Atlantic_Med
  • 4.50% Siberian
  • 2.12% Caucasus
  • 2.02% South_Asian
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan
Atlantic med is very low. It is hard to find any farmer genes in this genome. To bad there is only one Yamna sample tested for K12b, perhaps this individual didn't mix well yet.
Seams like the main genetic influence came from Gedrosia territory. I'm picturing Kazakhstan area.
 
Corded Ware:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/analyses-of-a-corded-ware-genome/
K12b

  • 50.54% North_European
  • 21.94% Gedrosia
  • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
  • 6.82% Caucasus
  • 0.22% South_Asian
  • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% Siberian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan
Now we see Atlantic Med and Caucasus rising, both indicating ENF farmer's influence. I'm almost sure the Cucuteni farmers are mixing in. This is the major difference between Yamna pastoralists and Corded farmers.
 
Unetic:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/analyses-of-a-unetice-genome/

K12b

  • 43.87% North_European
  • 34.36% Atlantic_Med
  • 11.94% Gedrosia
  • 5.24% Caucasus
  • 3.68% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.60% Northwest_African
  • 0.21% East_African
  • 0.06% South_Asian
  • 0.05% Siberian
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Sub_Saharan
Progressively more farmer admixtures than in Corded Ware.
 
Iron Age Anglo Saxon:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/analyses-of-an-ancient-english-genome/

K12b

  • 49.89% North_European
  • 30.08% Atlantic_Med
  • 9.78% Caucasus
  • 3.63% East_Asian
  • 3.19% Sub_Saharan
  • 1.31% Northwest_African
  • 1.16% Siberian
  • 0.79% East_African
  • 0.08% Gedrosia
  • 0.07% South_Asian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
Low Gedrosia and high Caucasus admixture. Was he modern East European?
 
Modern genome 12b, placeholder:
 
So this means that Neolithic people brought Mediterranean admixture?
Was wondering,is it possible that Roman Empire was the result of the evolution of a Neolithic society that reached it peak of development when Roman Empire started to expand?
Since I think if some ancients Romans bones would be examined,they will be quite closed to these Neolithic people,as genetics.
 
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