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Thread: Autosomal results of Neolithic genome from Iberia

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Autosomal results of Neolithic genome from Iberia

    So here it is, the results of the R1b1 sample from 5100 BC late neolithic Spain.

    Globe 13

    • 78.11% Mediterranean
    • 12.01% North_European
    • 9.78% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.09% Australasian
    • 0.01% West_Asian
    • 0.00% Amerindian
    • 0.00% Arctic
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% West_African


    K12b

    • 74.26% Atlantic_Med
    • 18.37% Caucasus
    • 3.70% Southwest_Asian
    • 3.67% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Gedrosia
    • 0.00% North_European
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan

    dv3

    • 67.94% Mediterranean
    • 22.30% West_European
    • 4.09% West_Asian
    • 4.07% Northwest_African
    • 1.60% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_European
    • 0.00% Neo_African
    • 0.00% Northeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian




    MDLP K=7

    • 75.11% Paleo-Mediterranean
    • 24.87% Caucasian
    • 0.02% South-Central-Asian
    • 0.00% Altaic-Turkic
    • 0.00% Paleo-Scandinavian
    • 0.00% Volga-Uralic
    • 0.00% West-Eurasian




    Typical European farmer with the typical Mediterranean/Southwest Asian/Caucasus DNA + some North European from admixing with WHG (also typical for European farmers).
    This is quite irritating. We have Samara H&G with not much sign of ENF but yet we have another R1b with typical farmer DNA.

    The only portion of the two genomes I see which might have a connection is the Gedrosia/West Asian in Karelian/Samara H&G, Yamna and Caucasus/West Asian portion in the Farmer.

    I think this is another indication that R1b migrated into the Steppes with the "Near Eastern ANE rich pastoralists". And to Neolithic Europe with farmers.

    But than another possibility is , R might have spred around the globe even before the ANE/ENF/WHG split.
    Last edited by Alan; 09-03-15 at 02:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    So here it is, the results of the R1b1 sample from 5100 BC late neolithic Spain.

    Globe 13

    • 78.11% Mediterranean
    • 12.01% North_European
    • 9.78% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.09% Australasian
    • 0.01% West_Asian
    • 0.00% Amerindian
    • 0.00% Arctic
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% West_African


    K12b

    • 74.26% Atlantic_Med
    • 18.37% Caucasus
    • 3.70% Southwest_Asian
    • 3.67% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Gedrosia
    • 0.00% North_European
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan

    dv3

    • 67.94% Mediterranean
    • 22.30% West_European
    • 4.09% West_Asian
    • 4.07% Northwest_African
    • 1.60% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_European
    • 0.00% Neo_African
    • 0.00% Northeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian




    MDLP K=7

    • 75.11% Paleo-Mediterranean
    • 24.87% Caucasian
    • 0.02% South-Central-Asian
    • 0.00% Altaic-Turkic
    • 0.00% Paleo-Scandinavian
    • 0.00% Volga-Uralic
    • 0.00% West-Eurasian




    Typical European farmer with the typical Mediterranean/Southwest Asian/Caucasus DNA + some North European wadmixing with WHG (also typical for European farmers).
    This is quite irritating. We have Samara H&G with not much sign of ENF but yet we have another R1b with typical farmer DNA.

    The only portion of the two genomes I see which might have a connection is the Gedrosia/West Asian in Samara H&G/Yamna and Caucasus/West Asian portion in the Farmer.

    I think this is another indication that R1b migrated into the Steppes with the "Near Eastern ANE rich pastoralists". And to Neolithic Europe with farmers.

    But than another possibility is , R might have spred around the globe even before the ANE/ENF/WHG split.
    It does look like this R1b came with farmers from Near East. However it says 0% Gedrosia, but still rich in Caucasus and some South-West Asian. How can we explain it?
    This is Late Neolithic genome who came from Near East recently or some time ago with farmers, so where is Gedrosia?
    Sorry for continually "grinding this stone of Gedrosia", but this is how we can figure out things. :)
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It does look like this R1b came with farmers from Near East. However it says 0% Gedrosia, but still rich in Caucasus and some South-West Asian. How can we explain it?
    This is Late Neolithic genome who came from Near East recently or some time ago with farmers, so where is Gedrosia?
    Sorry for continually "grinding this stone of Gedrosia", but this is how we can figure out things. :)
    This R1b sample is roughly the same age as R1b in Samara H&G. Even with the only difference that the farmer R1b is rather basal to the Samara R1b. Even the R1a samples from Samara, CW, Unetic are more Gedrosia.

    Gedrosia is definitely connected to Indo Europeans. Yamna, Corded Ware, Andronovo, Unetic etc. have all allot more of this Gedrosia component.

    But this R1b results from Neolithic Europe proof it is not exclusively connected to Gedrosia. But it's ancestors must have come from a region close to Gedrosia and where Caucasus is significant. And where might this place be if not Western Asia, where farmers and pastoralists started their journey. Remember there is also R1b V88 in Africa. Which was definitely brought there by farmers too.

    This is why I mentioned the only thing both the neolithic Iberian and Samara H&G have in common is the wider "West Asian" (Caucasus_Gedrosia) component.

    I don't think this whole R* mystery can be solved simply by ANE/ENF/WHG. This might be one of the major reasons why the HAAK and Reich papers did use new components instead of the WHG/ANE/ENF system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This R1b sample is roughly the same age as R1b in Samara H&G. Even with the only difference that the farmer R1b is rather basal to the Samara R1b. Even the R1a samples from Samara, CW, Unetic are more Gedrosia.

    Gedrosia is definitely connected to Indo Europeans. Yamna, Corded Ware, Andronovo, Unetic etc. have all allot more of this Gedrosia component.

    But this R1b results from Neolithic Europe proof it is not exclusively connected to Gedrosia. But it's ancestors must have come from a region close to Gedrosia and where Caucasus is significant. And where might this place be if not Western Asia, where farmers and pastoralists started their journey. Remember there is also R1b V88 in Africa. Which was definitely brought there by farmers too.

    This is why I mentioned the only thing both the neolithic Iberian and Samara H&G have in common is the wider "West Asian" (Caucasus_Gedrosia) component.
    Gedrosia must have been quite to the East in Asia. First farmers didn't meet Gedrosia for first few thousand years they lived in Middle East. And we know farmers spread, traded and moved around a lot. They've surely met people with Caucasus admixture and mixed heavily with them, but they didn't even get a smidge of Gedrosia. It means that Gedrosia was far enough not to manage to spread by bride exchange, invasions, or slow radiation from the center of it, or however genes manage to spread.

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    It should be interesting when we finally get to see some Iberian Bell Beaker Y DNA results - I think they will be R1b but that will be only part of the story. The autosomal analysis will also be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Gedrosia must have been quite to the East in Asia. First farmers didn't meet Gedrosia for first few thousand years they lived in Middle East. And we know farmers spread, traded and moved around a lot. They've surely met people with Caucasus admixture and mixed heavily with them, but they didn't even get a smidge of Gedrosia. It means that Gedrosia was far enough not to manage to spread by bride exchange, invasions, or slow radiation from the center of it, or however genes manage to spread.
    EHG had also this Gedrosia component. So bride exchange theory is finito, out and destroyed.

    The only explanation where R1b could have spred from is Taurus_Zagros/Elbruz mountains or a region nearby, both EHG and farmer have only these components in common.

    As I have explained in the past Gedrosia is 92% West Asian + 8% ANI thats what we see from the component break up.The reason why we see no Gedrosia in R1b the farmer is because this particular R1b sample belonged to a wave which had not yet diverged into Gedrosia (pastoralist).

    Overall R1bs connection to Gedrosia can't be denied. Populations with the most basal clades of R1b, such as M343, m269 etc have all high frequency of Gedrosia. Gedrosia didn't come from the East. Gedrosia evolved somewhere probably in Western Asia.
    Gedrosia peaks in Balochis who live in Southeastern Iran/West Pakistan which is situated in the Southeastern corner of West Aisa but they have settled there a few thousand years ago from Kurdistan. Thats what their oral traditions say and thats what their Northwest Iranian tongue indiciates (because Northwest Iranian tongue evolved in Kurdistan). So they might indiciate the ancient population of Kurdistan. I n every other direction from the Balochi tribes this component drops.


    The whole point is R1b must have come from a place where ENF must have existed and been relatively dominant and at the same time had genes which were ancestral to Gedrosia and Caucasus, because that is exactly what all the R1b samples have in common.And in that case I see Kurdistan/Caucasus/Mesopotamia/Iran as most likely place. This is were Gedrosia meets Caucasus and at the same time the place were basal R1b m343 and R1a m420 is found.
    Last edited by Alan; 05-03-15 at 15:34.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    It should be interesting when we finally get to see some Iberian Bell Beaker Y DNA results - I think they will be R1b but that will be only part of the story. The autosomal analysis will also be interesting.
    We already have the autosomal DNA of the Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a2-P312 results. Keep in mind this sample is 3000 years younger than the sample from Iberia and belongs to a completely different sub clade.

    Looking at the Bell Beaker genome and the timeframe most likely scenario is that Beall Beaker R1b came from Yamna or maybe from a similar wave of pastoralists who also moved into Yamna.


    globe13

    • 57.84% North_European
    • 27.43% Mediterranean
    • 6.17% West_Asian
    • 4.16% Arctic
    • 2.77% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.86% West_African
    • 0.55% Siberian
    • 0.18% Australasian
    • 0.03% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Amerindian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African


    K12b

    • 46.80% North_European
    • 34.63% Atlantic_Med
    • 9.62% Gedrosia
    • 3.28% Southwest_Asian
    • 2.71% Caucasus
    • 2.13% Siberian
    • 0.83% Sub_Saharan
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian



    • 37.95% West-European
    • 35.25% East-European
    • 15.27% Caucasian
    • 7.76% Volga-Finnic
    • 3.76% Paleo-Mediterranean
    • 0.00% Altaic-Turkic
    • 0.00% Paleo-Scandinavian
    • 0.00% South-Central-Asian



    Bell Beaker from Germany was already typically Central_North European. Makes me wonder if not all Central and Skando Europeans are descend of them for most part.
    Last edited by Alan; 05-03-15 at 14:37.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    We already have the autosomal DNA of the Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a2-P312 results. Keep in mind this sample is 3000 years younger than the sample from Iberia and belongs to a completely different sub clade.

    Looking at the Bell Beaker genome and the timeframe most likely scenario is that Beall Beaker R1b came from Yamna or maybe from a similar wave of pastoralists who also moved into Yamna.


    globe13

    • 57.84% North_European
    • 27.43% Mediterranean
    • 6.17% West_Asian
    • 4.16% Arctic
    • 2.77% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.86% West_African
    • 0.55% Siberian
    • 0.18% Australasian
    • 0.03% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Amerindian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African


    K12b

    • 46.80% North_European
    • 34.63% Atlantic_Med
    • 9.62% Gedrosia
    • 3.28% Southwest_Asian
    • 2.71% Caucasus
    • 2.13% Siberian
    • 0.83% Sub_Saharan
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian



    • 37.95% West-European
    • 35.25% East-European
    • 15.27% Caucasian
    • 7.76% Volga-Finnic
    • 3.76% Paleo-Mediterranean
    • 0.00% Altaic-Turkic
    • 0.00% Paleo-Scandinavian
    • 0.00% South-Central-Asian



    Bell Beaker from Germany was already typically Central_North European. Makes me wonder if not all Central and Skando Europeans are descend of them for most part.
    I don't think you can necessarily assume that German BB was the same autosomally as Iberian BB. I suspect there was quite a difference, although we won't really know until we have some data. A lot of people were saying for a long time that it was definite that R1b wasn't in Iberia during the Neolithic because we had four samples from one Epicardial Ware site and none were R1b, but all it took was a second Iberian Neolithic site to turn up an R1b sample. If people were that wrong about Iberia during the Neolithic, perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to assume we know what to expect from Iberian BB when we have zero data for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    We already have the autosomal DNA of the Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a2-P312 results. Keep in mind this sample is 3000 years younger than the sample from Iberia and belongs to a completely different sub clade.

    Looking at the Bell Beaker genome and the timeframe most likely scenario is that Beall Beaker R1b came from Yamna or maybe from a similar wave of pastoralists who also moved into Yamna.


    globe13

    • 57.84% North_European
    • 27.43% Mediterranean
    • 6.17% West_Asian
    • 4.16% Arctic
    • 2.77% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.86% West_African
    • 0.55% Siberian
    • 0.18% Australasian
    • 0.03% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Amerindian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African


    K12b

    • 46.80% North_European
    • 34.63% Atlantic_Med
    • 9.62% Gedrosia
    • 3.28% Southwest_Asian
    • 2.71% Caucasus
    • 2.13% Siberian
    • 0.83% Sub_Saharan
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian



    • 37.95% West-European
    • 35.25% East-European
    • 15.27% Caucasian
    • 7.76% Volga-Finnic
    • 3.76% Paleo-Mediterranean
    • 0.00% Altaic-Turkic
    • 0.00% Paleo-Scandinavian
    • 0.00% South-Central-Asian



    Bell Beaker from Germany was already typically Central_North European. Makes me wonder if not all Central and Skando Europeans are descend of them for most part.
    Thanks Alan, very interesting K12b. There is a big shift from farmer genome to this (IE?) bronze age one. Atlantic Med shrunk to half of its size, but more interestingly Caucasus collapsed from 18 to 3 percent.
    What do they include in North European here WHG and ANE?

    Do we have full K12b for Yamnaya and Corded, Maciamo posted only Gedrosia component?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks Alan, very interesting K12b. There is a big shift from farmer genome to this (IE?) bronze age one. Atlantic Med shrunk to half of its size, but more interestingly Caucasus collapsed from 18 to 3 percent.
    What do they include in North European here WHG and ANE?

    Do we have full K12b for Yamnaya and Corded, Maciamo posted only Gedrosia component?
    "North European" in this case is pred. WHG with a quarter of ANE and even some ENF. Gedrosia here is like 1/2 ANE and 1/2 ENF. Atlantic Med is like 4/5 ENF and 1/5WHG. These are just rough estimations.

    The decrease of Gedrosia from Yamna (26%) to Bell Beaker(10%) is relatively linear and goes well with the hypothesis that BB is 25% Yamna.

    But I see an untypical decrease of Caucasus at neolithic farmers from ~20% to 2-3% at BB. This is not systematic/linear decrease to Gedrosia.

    I sam speculating that with the introduction of Yamna admixture. Caucasus somehow merges and gets eaten up by North European and Atlantic_Med.


    Here are the Corded Ware and Yamna genomes for comparison.

    Yamna

    globe13

    • 62.21% North_European
    • 24.62% West_Asian
    • 5.57% Arctic
    • 3.18% Amerindian
    • 3.01% South_Asian
    • 1.42% Mediterranean
    • 0.00% Australasian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% West_African


    K7b

    • 60.23% Atlantic_Baltic
    • 29.33% West_Asian
    • 5.24% South_Asian
    • 5.19% Siberian
    • 0.00% African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Southern


    K12b

    • 60.18% North_European
    • 26.29% Gedrosia
    • 4.89% Atlantic_Med
    • 4.50% Siberian
    • 2.12% Caucasus
    • 2.02% South_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan


    Corded Ware

    globe13

    • 59.64% North_European
    • 20.19% West_Asian
    • 16.85% Mediterranean
    • 2.40% South_Asian
    • 0.62% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.24% Australasian
    • 0.05% Amerindian
    • 0.00% Arctic
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% West_African



    K7b

    • 66.02% Atlantic_Baltic
    • 27.10% West_Asian
    • 3.73% South_Asian
    • 3.13% Southern
    • 0.02% Siberian
    • 0.00% African
    • 0.00% East_Asian


    K12b

    • 50.54% North_European
    • 21.94% Gedrosia
    • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
    • 6.82% Caucasus
    • 0.22% South_Asian
    • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    "North European" in this case is pred. WHG with a quarter of ANE and even some ENF. Gedrosia here is like 1/2 ANE and 1/2 ENF. Atlantic Med is like 4/5 ENF and 1/5WHG. These are just rough estimations.

    The decrease of Gedrosia from Yamna (26%) to Bell Beaker(10%) is relatively linear and goes well with the hypothesis that BB is 25% Yamna.

    But I see an untypical decrease of Caucasus at neolithic farmers from ~20% to 2-3% at BB. This is not systematic/linear decrease to Gedrosia.

    I sam speculating that with the introduction of Yamna admixture. Caucasus somehow merges and gets eaten up by North European and Atlantic_Med.
    Yep, there is something unclear with Caucasus and Gedrosia falling surprisingly quickly, Caucasus in West Europeans and Gedrosia in East Europeans. Perhaps there is substantial amount of Gedrosia in modern East Europeans but it is eaten up by other admixtures, as you mentioned. Could modern East Euro contain 10% Gedrosia?

    Wherever East Euro dominates Gedrosia falls below 1%.




    And wherever West Euro dominates Caucasus falls below 1%:



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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yep, there is something unclear with Caucasus and Gedrosia falling surprisingly quickly, Caucasus in West Europeans and Gedrosia in East Europeans. Perhaps there is substantial amount of Gedrosia in modern East Europeans but it is eaten up other admixtures. Could modern East Euro contain 10% Gedrosia?

    Thank you for opening the way for this. I posted it already yesterday in the other thread but edited it later.


    Years ago I had this theory, that the reason we don't find Gedrosia in modern East Europe is, that it is ancestral to some of the Northeast European and with time passing it "shifted" into Northeast European. And the reason why Caucasus is so rare in West Europe is, that Caucasus is ancestral and shifted mostly to "West European" with time passing. Later Dienekes came with the womb of nations theory and this inspired me even more into believing this.

    When I presented this theory in the comment section of Dienekes Blogspot. Most people disagreed so that I threw this theory away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Thank you for opening the way for my old theory. I posted it already yesterday in the other thread but edited it later.


    In the past I had this theory, that the reason we don't find Gedrosia in modern East Europe is, that it is ancestral to some of the Northeast European and with time passing it "shifted" into Northeast European. And the reason why Caucasus is so rare in West Europe is, that Caucasus is ancestral and shifted mostly to "West European" with time passing. Later Dienekes came with the womb of nations theory and this inspired me even more into believing this.

    When I presented this theory in the comment section of Dienekes Blogspot. Most people disagreed so that I threw this theory away.
    You could be right on the money. So far I don't see alternative explanation without invoking population replacement in Europe since Bronze Age. Neither PCA distances, nor haplogroups, nor other admixtures point to total replacement. Also I don't believe admixtures can just evaporate with time. The only solution, as you presented, and supported by admixture maps above, is that calculators mix West and East Euro of modern populations with Caucasus and Gedrosia.
    I'm not sure if it is fault of calculator itself, or accumulation of mutated alleles, that makes parts of genome no longer recognizable as these two admixtures?
    Last edited by LeBrok; 06-03-15 at 07:43.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, so East Europeans, the Poles, Belorussians and Lithuanians might as well still contain 20% of Gedrosia.

    I hope some geneticists can clean up this issue for us, or provide believable alternative.

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    Thanks for posting these admixtures, Alan.

    I think it confirms what I wrote last month just after we got the Haak 2015 paper. This R1b1* is in all likelihood R1b-V88 (a SNP which was not tested) that can through North Africa with Neolithic cattle herders. The admixtures speak for themselves:

    - About 10% of Southwest Asian => point of origin of R1b-V88 in the southern Levant

    - 3-4% of Northwest African => Where would they have picked it up if those Neolithic farmers had come through Anatolia, Greece and Italy to Catalonia ? They must have come though North Africa.

    - Very high Mediterranean component associated mostly with G2a and E-M78 and as common in North Africa and South Europe today.


    NB : I am not surprised that there is no Gedrosia left in this 7000 year-old R1b-V88 sample. R1b would have mixed with G2a people in the Levant, then E1b1b people in North Africa, and probably also J1 and T1a people along the way. Since R1b-V88 only represents a small minority of lineages both in Southwest Asia and North Africa today, their autosomal genes must have got diluted pretty quickly, and after mixing with I2 and other people in Spain, how could anyone expect to find any significant trace of R1b's original admixture ?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    We already have the autosomal DNA of the Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a2-P312 results. Keep in mind this sample is 3000 years younger than the sample from Iberia and belongs to a completely different sub clade.

    Looking at the Bell Beaker genome and the timeframe most likely scenario is that Beall Beaker R1b came from Yamna or maybe from a similar wave of pastoralists who also moved into Yamna.

    ...

    Bell Beaker from Germany was already typically Central_North European. Makes me wonder if not all Central and Skando Europeans are descend of them for most part.
    If you have followed my arguments about the spread of R1b, there is doubt that modern West and North Europeans descend from those R1b-P312 people from Germany 4500 years ago. Ever since 2009 I have argued that it is these R1b men descended from Yamna who invaded the Bell Beaker culture. I keep repeating that those R1b samples aren't descended from Iberian Bell Beakers, but are foreigners who migrated there. It's frustrating how nobody seems to understand that. This map hasn't been edited since 2010.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for posting these admixtures, Alan.

    I think it confirms what I wrote last month just after we got the Haak 2015 paper. This R1b1* is in all likelihood R1b-V88 (a SNP which was not tested) that can through North Africa with Neolithic cattle herders. The admixtures speak for themselves:

    - About 10% of Southwest Asian => point of origin of R1b-V88 in the southern Levant

    - 3-4% of Northwest African => Where would they have picked it up if those Neolithic farmers had come through Anatolia, Greece and Italy to Catalonia ? They must have come though North Africa.

    - Very high Mediterranean component associated mostly with G2a and E-M78 and as common in North Africa and South Europe today.


    NB : I am not surprised that there is no Gedrosia left in this 7000 year-old R1b-V88 sample. R1b would have mixed with G2a people in the Levant, then E1b1b people in North Africa, and probably also J1 and T1a people along the way. Since R1b-V88 only represents a small minority of lineages both in Southwest Asia and North Africa today, their autosomal genes must have got diluted pretty quickly, and after mixing with I2 and other people in Spain, how could anyone expect to find any significant trace of R1b's original admixture ?
    What do you think of this theory.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post451377

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    To me it rather looks like a ~50% population change happened in NE europe since Corded Ware, not only because Gedrosia disappeared, but also the 27% Eurogenes15 'Atlantic' dropped to about 12%, and 'Baltic' increased from 13% to >21%. Finally also R1b lineages are very sparse in NE Europe compared to the rest.
    One reason is probably the migration of mesolithic scandinavian hunter-gathers who increased I2a and WHG (~'Baltic') in NE europe. I also wonder how densely populated this region was. If sparse, then populations can be altered more easily.
    Why Gedrosia disappeared completely though, is not completely explained yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    To me it rather looks like a ~50% population change happened in NE europe since Corded Ware, not only because Gedrosia disappeared, but also the 27% Eurogenes15 'Atlantic' dropped to about 12%, and 'Baltic' increased from 13% to >21%. Finally also R1b lineages are very sparse in NE Europe compared to the rest.
    One reason is probably the migration of mesolithic scandinavian hunter-gathers who increased I2a and WHG (~'Baltic') in NE europe. I also wonder how densely populated this region was. If sparse, then populations can be altered more easily.
    Why Gedrosia disappeared completely though, is not completely explained yet.
    This is what I think too, Northern Europe got population replacement up to 50%, or even higher in some locations, from the IE invaders. For some reason the farther South we go the less replacement there was. I guess, it would be due to higher population density of farmers in the south.
    When we look at Corded Ware samples from Germany with 20% of Gedrosia, and compare it to 26 Gedrosia of Yamnaya, it would suggest that 4 in 5 farmers/locals were replaced in Germany. We can assume it was a similar case throughout of most CW territory. Whatever it really was, the rate of replacement was rather high. Since then the location of Bronze Age samples are very close to Modern Ones on PCA plot. Meaning that there was not much of replacement or a mixing since. That's why it is more perplexing to see Gedrosia evaporate completely from today's Eastern Europe, since Bronze Age. There is a similar story with Caucasian admixture in West Europe. All these clues together give an impression that there is something amiss with calculators of Gedrosia and Caucasus admixtures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for posting these admixtures, Alan.

    I think it confirms what I wrote last month just after we got the Haak 2015 paper. This R1b1* is in all likelihood R1b-V88 (a SNP which was not tested) that can through North Africa with Neolithic cattle herders. The admixtures speak for themselves:

    - About 10% of Southwest Asian => point of origin of R1b-V88 in the southern Levant

    - 3-4% of Northwest African => Where would they have picked it up if those Neolithic farmers had come through Anatolia, Greece and Italy to Catalonia ? They must have come though North Africa.

    - Very high Mediterranean component associated mostly with G2a and E-M78 and as common in North Africa and South Europe today.


    NB : I am not surprised that there is no Gedrosia left in this 7000 year-old R1b-V88 sample. R1b would have mixed with G2a people in the Levant, then E1b1b people in North Africa, and probably also J1 and T1a people along the way. Since R1b-V88 only represents a small minority of lineages both in Southwest Asia and North Africa today, their autosomal genes must have got diluted pretty quickly, and after mixing with I2 and other people in Spain, how could anyone expect to find any significant trace of R1b's original admixture ?
    should be V88/PF6279 or Direct ancestor V88/PF6279

    south american people close to near east people

    in african Y7771 under V88*/PF6279*

    in saudi V69 under V88*/PF6279*

    The common denominator is Levant V88*/PF6279*

    But disagree with you on some points

    And you have to know something important btween thise branch and germans branch not less than 10.000 years

    Do not fall into the same mistakes that have fallen

    There is no relationship between the germans p297+/v88- and near east v88+/p297- less than 10.000 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    To me it rather looks like a ~50% population change happened in NE europe since Corded Ware, not only because Gedrosia disappeared, but also the 27% Eurogenes15 'Atlantic' dropped to about 12%, and 'Baltic' increased from 13% to >21%. Finally also R1b lineages are very sparse in NE Europe compared to the rest.
    One reason is probably the migration of mesolithic scandinavian hunter-gathers who increased I2a and WHG (~'Baltic') in NE europe. I also wonder how densely populated this region was. If sparse, then populations can be altered more easily.
    Why Gedrosia disappeared completely though, is not completely explained yet.
    That theory makes some sense to me as well, as I've been saying for a long time. I think there was probably migration from the north post Yamnaya, but I also think it needs to be remembered that Corded Ware moved northwest off the more southern regions. It was only later that it moved east and incorporated what I think will turn out to be more EHG like people who were living in the forest steppe, EHG like people who probably had next to no Gedrosia. (I think it has to be kept in mind that the populations in eastern Europe were probably on a cline from north to south. Here we're talking about Yamna, which was to the south and a population-Corded Ware-related to Yamnaya.)While I know that some people will find it disappointing, it may be that Corded Ware really doesn't equal modern northeast European or even eastern European. It just isn't a very good match for those populations.

    (The recent paper on these forest steppe populations, which discusses this movement east by Corded Ware is discussed here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...213#post451213)

    Since we've been talking about K12b, here are the K12b figures for Corded Ware, Lithuanians and Russians. In both of the modern populations, North Euro increased by 20 points and Gedrosia dropped by 20 points. Atlantic Med dropped by 7 points in both, and in Lithuanians, Caucasus stayed about the same, but in Russians, it increased.
    Corded Ware:

    • 50.54% North_European
    • 21.94% Gedrosia
    • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
    • 6.82% Caucasus
    • 0.22% South_Asian
    • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan


    Lithuanians:
    77.1 North European
    0 Gedrosia
    13.7 Atlantic Med
    8 Caucasus
    1 S.W.Asian
    .1 S Asian

    Russians:
    66.5 North Euro
    .2 Gedrosia
    13.1 Atlantic Med
    14.3 Caucasus
    .8 South Asian
    .6 SW Asian
    0 E.African
    1.2 E.Asian
    .1 Northwest African
    2.7 Siberian
    .4S.E.Asian
    0 SSA

    The Germans actually seem like a better fit with Corded Ware:
    48.2 North Euro
    7.3 Gedrosia
    33 Atlantic Med
    9.8 Caucasus
    1.7 S.W.Asian

    In their case it seems like the rise in Atlantic Med and S.W. Asian cut into the Gedrosia.

    I think those more central European populations were formed by different migrations, which may have started off from the steppe at an earlier time, and they also probably experienced more admixture from the prior Neolithic farming communities.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is what I think too, Northern Europe got population replacement up to 50%, or even higher in some locations, from the IE invaders. For some reason the farther South we go the less replacement there was. I guess, it would be due to higher population density of farmers in the south.
    When we look at Corded Ware samples from Germany with 20% of Gedrosia, and compare it to 26 Gedrosia of Yamnaya, it would suggest that 4 in 5 farmers/locals were replaced in Germany. We can assume it was a similar case throughout of most CW territory. Whatever it really was, the rate of replacement was rather high. Since then the location of Bronze Age samples are very close to Modern Ones on PCA plot. Meaning that there was not much of replacement or a mixing since. That's why it is more perplexing to see Gedrosia evaporate completely from today's Eastern Europe, since Bronze Age. There is a similar story with Caucasian admixture in West Europe. All these clues together give an impression that there is something amiss with calculators of Gedrosia and Caucasus admixtures.
    You have started to convince me that some of the Gedrosia might really get eaten up by Northeast European, the same with Caucasus in Northwest European.

    Remember Northeast Europeans have equally as much ANE as Northwest Europeans (if not even slightly more). We know ANE is allot more prevelant in Gedrosia (~50%) than Caucasus(~20%).

    As we know Gedrosia peaks in Northwest Europeans with up to 12%. If we know take into account that most of Northwest European ANE is connected to Gedrosia and some of it to Northwest European there.

    Than we must come to the conclusion that most ANE in Northeast Europe is connected to the Northeast European and just some to the Caucasus component.

    So what do Gedrosia and Northeast European have in common? High ANE!

    So is it really falce to assume that Gedrosia merged in East Europe with Northeast European component and therefore "dissapeared". While Caucasus, which pre Bronze Age was heavy in West Europe merged with Northwest European component and therefore "dissapeared".

    I mean look at it, today it is completely the opposite how it was in ancient times. fomer Caucasus rich West Europe becomes Gedrosia rich and former Gedrosia rich East Europe becomes Caucasus rich.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    So is it really falce to assume that Gedrosia merged in East Europe with Northeast European component and therefore "dissapeared". While Caucasus, which pre Bronze Age was heavy in West Europe merged with Northwest European component and therefore "dissapeared".

    I mean look at it, today it is completely the opposite how it was in ancient times. fomer Caucasus rich West Europe becomes Gedrosia rich and former Gedrosia rich East Europe becomes Caucasus rich.
    This is exactly why we should stick to ancient basal admixtures in discription of composition of today's societies. To invent modern admixtures or invent ancient admixture based on modern (mixed) populations muds the water a lot.

    I think at the end of the day we will find few very defined basal ones, like ENF (Natufian?), WHG, Caucasus (Kostenki HG/pastoralist?), Gedrosia (Central Asian HG?), EHG (East European HG), and of course few others from Asia and Africa that we don't know yet.
    I think some of the basal once were trapped in separate areas during LGM for 10 ky or so developing unique genomes. When Ice Age ended they started building in numbers, expanding and mixing. It will be important to get a snapshot of these genomes as they were about 10 kya, before mixing started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Gedrosia must have been quite to the East in Asia. First farmers didn't meet Gedrosia for first few thousand years they lived in Middle East. And we know farmers spread, traded and moved around a lot. They've surely met people with Caucasus admixture and mixed heavily with them, but they didn't even get a smidge of Gedrosia. It means that Gedrosia was far enough not to manage to spread by bride exchange, invasions, or slow radiation from the center of it, or however genes manage to spread.
    I'm tempted to agree with you, on this question

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That theory makes some sense to me as well, as I've been saying for a long time. I think there was probably migration from the north post Yamnaya, but I also think it needs to be remembered that Corded Ware moved northwest off the more southern regions. It was only later that it moved east and incorporated what I think will turn out to be more EHG like people who were living in the forest steppe, EHG like people who probably had next to no Gedrosia. (I think it has to be kept in mind that the populations in eastern Europe were probably on a cline from north to south. Here we're talking about Yamna, which was to the south and a population-Corded Ware-related to Yamnaya.)While I know that some people will find it disappointing, it may be that Corded Ware really doesn't equal modern northeast European or even eastern European. It just isn't a very good match for those populations.

    (The recent paper on these forest steppe populations, which discusses this movement east by Corded Ware is discussed here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...213#post451213)

    Since we've been talking about K12b, here are the K12b figures for Corded Ware, Lithuanians and Russians. In both of the modern populations, North Euro increased by 20 points and Gedrosia dropped by 20 points. Atlantic Med dropped by 7 points in both, and in Lithuanians, Caucasus stayed about the same, but in Russians, it increased.
    Corded Ware:

    • 50.54% North_European
    • 21.94% Gedrosia
    • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
    • 6.82% Caucasus
    • 0.22% South_Asian
    • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan


    Lithuanians:
    77.1 North European
    0 Gedrosia
    13.7 Atlantic Med
    8 Caucasus
    1 S.W.Asian
    .1 S Asian

    Russians:
    66.5 North Euro
    .2 Gedrosia
    13.1 Atlantic Med
    14.3 Caucasus
    .8 South Asian
    .6 SW Asian
    0 E.African
    1.2 E.Asian
    .1 Northwest African
    2.7 Siberian
    .4S.E.Asian
    0 SSA

    The Germans actually seem like a better fit with Corded Ware:
    48.2 North Euro
    7.3 Gedrosia
    33 Atlantic Med
    9.8 Caucasus
    1.7 S.W.Asian

    In their case it seems like the rise in Atlantic Med and S.W. Asian cut into the Gedrosia.

    I think those more central European populations were formed by different migrations, which may have started off from the steppe at an earlier time, and they also probably experienced more admixture from the prior Neolithic farming communities.
    the 'gedrosia' question is not a light one - the drop down of 'gedrosia' in N-E Europe can be linked to maybe not emigrations from North but rather an osmosis: maybe the Y-R1a of proto-Balto-Slavic tribes created the Baltic culture by incorporating previous WHG-EHG (already partly ANE?) populations: here persons with a good knowledge of mt-DNA could confirm or infirm this "theory" - the Battle Axes cultures of N-E Europe seems a "pupil" of the Corded culture, a mix - true Corded were previously more southern, along an axis NW-SE - yet, later proto-Slavs had incorporated some WHG of Carpathians, surely without 'gedrosia' - physically true 'Corded' men were distinct for the most (spite a bit of 'brünn') from the WHG populations more present among NE inhabitants ('brünnoid'+'cro-magnoid' plus some WHG without 'gedrosia' nor ANE) - Corded were a specific population, from Steppes (but not the WHOLE steppes)

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