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Thread: Red hair existed in pre-historic Europe

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    Red hair existed in pre-historic Europe


    Geneticker posted the genotypes of some of the ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...storic-europe/

    Here's an informative 23andme article about red hair variants.

    http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/

    I don't mean to be biased and ethnocentric about my own hair color, just it's nice to confirm some people in pre-historic times had red hair. Two of the Haak genomes appear to have been redheads and 6 were carriers for red hair.

    This is especially true for the Mesolithic people of Motala Sweden. 3/7(I0013, I0012, I0016) had a red hair variant(rs1110400, rs1805007, rs1805008). One of them(I0016) had two red hair variants which according to Hirisplex means he was most defiantly a redhead. The Moatal_HGs appear to have been Albino-like compared to swathy WHGs from west Europe. They didn't just have a lot of red hair, one was a carrier for blonde hair, 7/7 had blue eyes, and most had light skin alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982.

    Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

    LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

    According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.
    Last edited by Fire Haired14; 07-03-15 at 11:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post

    Geneticker posted the genotypes of the 69 ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...storic-europe/

    Here's an informative 23andme article about red hair variants.

    http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/

    I don't mean to be biased and ethnocentric about my own hair color, just it's nice to confirm some people in pre-historic times had red hair. Two of the Haak genomes appear to have been redheads and 6 were carriers for red hair.

    This is especially true for the Mesolithic people of Motala Sweden. 3/7(I0013, I0012, I0016) had a red hair variant(rs1110400, rs1805007, rs1805008). One of them(I0016) had two red hair variants which according to Hirisplex means he was most defiantly a redhead. The Moatal_HGs appear to have been Albino-like compared to swathy WHGs from west Europe. They didn't just have a lot of red hair, one was a carrier for blonde hair, 7/7 had blue eyes, and most had light skin alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982.

    Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

    LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

    According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.
    He posted less than half of the 69
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    He posted less than half of the 69
    Thanks for letting me know.

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    Ergo, R1B did not bring red hair into Europe from the East during the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post

    Geneticker posted the genotypes of some of the ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.
    Genetiker also claims that the R1b in Iberian neolithic is descend of paleolithic Gravettians. Since than I find his conclusions dubious. Even if he might be right on this one.

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    Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.
    But I doubt they have much connection to red hair in humans today. The Motala_HGs are directly connected because they have the same markers. MCR1 mutations associated with red hair today are most popular in the north and Baltic seas, which was the region SHG-types lived. Modern ones in Europe could be getting it from Mesolithic SHG-types.

    If you picture the primitive, cold, and harsh world the Motala_HGs lived in it makes you wonder if they were so Albino-like because of their environment.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

    LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

    According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.
    Interesting - Halberstadt I0099 was part of the Lusatian culture.

    His Y-DNA haplogroup was R1a Z280 and his mtDNA haplogroup was H23.

    He died around 1113 - 1021 years BCE. From Haak et. al. 2015:

    ID number - I0099
    Pop Label for Analysis - Halberstadt_LBA
    Culture - Late Bronze Age [Urnfield cultures, precisely - Lusatian culture)
    Group - LBA
    Location and sample details (e.g. sample, grave and museum ID) - Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany; HAL36C, grave 40, feature 1114
    Date (lab no.) - 1113-1021 cal BCE (MAMS 21484)
    Country - Germany
    Sex - M
    mt-hg - H23
    Y-hg - R1a1a1b1a2 [Z280]
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml



    http://s1.postimg.org/z962wr6hb/Halberstadt.png



    https://translate.google.com/#auto/e...B3%D0%B8%D0%B5

    Today Z280 is most common among Slavic and Baltic populations:

    R1a1a1b1a2 (S204 / Z91, S466 / Z280) - an Eastern European marker (probably Balto-Slavic), is found throughout Central and Eastern Europe, the western limit of distribution stretches from East to South-western Germany and further to the north-eastern Italy, is spread in Russians, Ukrainians, Volga Tatars and others. Inside branches divided into several clusters studied so far only in general terms: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, Eastern Alps, Czechoslovakia and others.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml

    R1a-Z280 is also a Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe, with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.
    According to Underhill 2014, the highest frequency of Z280 is among Russians from Belgorod (48,3%) and from Oryol (47,7%):

    The distance from Oryol to Belgorod is 300 km by road:



    Some groups of Belarusians and Ukrainians also have over 40% of Z280:



    But where is the highest diversity of Z280 ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    But I doubt they have much connection to red hair in humans today. The Motala_HGs are directly connected because they have the same markers. MCR1 mutations associated with red hair today are most popular in the north and Baltic seas, which was the region SHG-types lived. Modern ones in Europe could be getting it from Mesolithic SHG-types.

    If you picture the primitive, cold, and harsh world the Motala_HGs lived in it makes you wonder if they were so Albino-like because of their environment.
    Surely there is a new allele involved now in red hair than Neanderthal had. However it is not very conclusive after so many thousands of years and many mutations where it came from. Let's see what genomes of gravettians will tell in the future.

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    This can't be true....Maciamo said Indo-Europeans brought it.

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    Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

    Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
    Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
    Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
    LBK I0025: - / T2b
    Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
    LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

    So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

    While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

    It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

    Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).

    This can't be true....Maciamo said Indo-Europeans brought it.
    Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

    Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

    No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

    One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

    It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

    Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

    No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

    One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

    It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.
    I believe you are correct.

    However, Maciamo's point is that because R1B "correlates" with red hair in Europe today, therefore they must be the "cause" of red hair, in essence bringing over the trait from the East.

    The new data suggests otherwise.

    It appears red hair has been in Europe since before the Mesolithic and is an indigenous trait. Red hair actually correlates to areas that were hunter-gatherer refuges from Neolithic farmers. It's frequent in fringe locations like Scotland, Scandinavia, the Alps, and even in the Eastern fringes of Europe with Udmurts (who are y-dna "N" btw). Unless R1B L-51 was hiding somewhere in the North West with HGs (highly unlikely but nothing surprises me anymore with genetics :)) then the invading males married the red-haired natives, as you say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

    Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
    Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
    Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
    LBK I0025: - / T2b
    Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
    LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

    So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

    While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

    It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

    Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).



    Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

    Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

    No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

    One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

    It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.
    Red hair could have been replaced by more blond mutations. Could it be the transitional step into more blondism of north Europe?

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    However, Maciamo's point is that because R1B "correlates" with red hair in Europe today, therefore they must be the "cause" of red hair, in essence bringing over the trait from the East.
    It does not necessarily suggest otherwise. After all, red hair could be present both in the East and in the West.

    Indo-Europeans could spread the trait from the East even if the same trait (or a very similar one) existed also in the West.

    If LeBrok is right that this trait comes from Neanderthals, then admixture could happen anywhere between the Altai and Iberia.

    Neanderthals were not restricted to Western Europe but lived in much of Eurasia, as recent findings of new bones suggest.

    Red hair could exist in several distant groups of Neanderthals, and could be inherited on a few occasions, not just once.

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    It appears red hair has been in Europe since before the Mesolithic and is an indigenous trait.
    Europe is not Australia. It is not a real continent - there is no natural boundary between Europe and Asia, at least not in the steppe zone.

    This kind of thinking about Europe as a "fortress" led people to believe that Neanderthals lived only in Europe.

    But now we have Neanderthal burials as far as the Altai Mountains - actually they had been there before (!) migrating into Western Europe.

    And it is possible that they lived also in China (even though no bones were found so far).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If LeBrok is right that this trait comes from Neanderthals, then admixture could happen anywhere between the Altai and Iberia.
    I am under the impression that the gene giving Neanderthals red hair is not the same gene responsible for red hair in modern people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

    Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
    Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
    Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
    LBK I0025: - / T2b
    Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
    LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

    So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

    While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

    It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

    Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).



    Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

    Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

    No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

    One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

    It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.
    I answer yu and others here, so, you haven' t to take it for your account:
    more than a biallelic locus exists, I think concerning red hair - I don't see the link with Neanderthal -
    Y-haplo's CAN have links with other autosomes as long as a population doesn't mix with an other? not more, not less -
    red hairs, today, aren't the Baltic richness, not at all (only Estonians seem having about the European mean or just above, about the 2% - Latvians and Lithuanians are under 0,6% of red + reddish hairs -
    IT'S NOT RARITY OF A GENE VARIANT THAT PUSH IT TO DISAPPEAR, IN NO WAY IT'S RECESSIVE QUALITY/ HOW COULD PORTUGUESES HAVE BLOND HAIR (1,5%) OR SARDINIANS (1%)??? blond would have disappeared after all these centuries of scarcity - THE RECESSIVE QUALITY PERMITS THE REAPPARITION OF A VARIANT WE BELIEVE IT WAS DISAPPEARED, AT THE CONTRARY!!!

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    According Genetiker, Mesolithic Samara EHG (ancestor of Yamna) was blond haired, blue eyes with fair skins, I guess that make him the first individual with these features; he was probably R1b (or maybe R1a;).

    There are also another link in Genetiker blog, about Kostenki:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014...nki-14-genome/

    "The results also show Kostenki 14 as having derived alleles associated with red hair, milk digestion, Mongoloid light skin, and blond hair and blue eyes. Some caution must be exercised in interpreting these results, because the Kostenki 14 genome is not nearly as high-coverage as some of the other prehistoric genomes. But the results also can’t simply be dismissed, because it’s not impossible that Kostenki 14 did have the derived alleles shown below."

    That could explain why we find these features to the different group of peoples in Europe; and Kostenti has already the same three ancestors that the modern European (it was already a very big surprise).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Genetiker did not use the Hisiplex system, so those results are doubtful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Genetiker did not use the Hisiplex system, so those results are doubtful.
    Allot of Genetikers hypothesis are doubtfull and sound more like fantasy. Genetiker even claims the R1b1 in Iberian Neolithic is descend of Gravitterian (Paleolithic Europeans! while we haven't even found mesolithic European R1b1). This is why I will stay cautious as long as not one of the Reich lab confirms this. I would have expected them to mention it if these H&G were really light haired.


    "light skin" here seems to be relativicaly. Relative to Indian color range they might have been "light". I doubt that they were as light as the farmers let alone modern Europeans. And it must have been some H&G anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.
    West Eurasians mixed with Neanderthals only in the Middle East, so we must suppose that all Neanderthals had that red hair mutation, because the humans also have it.

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    Genetiker himself have said to be cautious about Kostenki analysis; for the "light skin"; he talk about "Mongoloid light skin"; so far lighter than indians or west asians in general.

    For EHG; if we talk about light colors (hairs, skins and eyes) well, that not a surprise if we take the Andronovo; Bell Beaker or Tocharians peoples:

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....439-009-0683-0

    "Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization."

    I don't think they use "fair skinned"; if these peoples were not "fair-skinned" (they don't hesitate, in these kind of studies, to use the words "olive skin" if they have some doubt), imho they were probably more fair-skinned that the europeans farmers, and logically closer to modern europeans...

    Also Motola WHG have lot of ANE (unlike the others "brown skinned" WHG; maybe that the "key"); Yamna have 40-45% WHG; so that seem "logical" in they have lot of the same features.

    but I'm agree for Genetiker tests about WHG redhairs; EHG blonds etc..., we should wait for the other analysis; but that still very interesting and intriguing.
    Last edited by Drax; 10-03-15 at 19:02.

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    Those bronze age Siberians were not tested for many pigmentation SNPs. From what I saw they had similar results as modern north Euros. The SNPs tested can't tell much about their hair color. All we know is that they had light skin and mostly blue eyes. Although a closely related bronze age Mongolian who was put through Hirisplex was predicted to have dark blonde hair, and mummies from relatives of these people, ancient writings, and ancient art prove they had diversity in hair color.

    Most Mesolithic SHG and EHG samples surprisingly have the same light skin mutations as modern Europeans, although not all did. But I don't have faith in the current "light skin" mutations making much of an affect, so their skin color remains unknown. I am very confident that EHG and SHG ranged in hair color from yellow-black-red and had mostly blue eyes. It makes me wonder if they're the source of such pigmentation in modern Euros and Andronovo, but that's a bit of stretch.

    Although Neolithic EEF may have been more dark haired(we can't say till we get more EHG and SHG) they did range in hair color from yellow-black and may have had red to. So, why can't they also be a source for hair color diversity in modern Europe and Andronovo. Both EEF and EHG-SHG-WHG(?) probably gave later Europeans hair color diversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drax View Post
    According Genetiker, Mesolithic Samara EHG (ancestor of Yamna) was blond haired, blue eyes with fair skins, I guess that make him the first individual with these features; he was probably R1b (or maybe R1a;).

    There are also another link in Genetiker blog, about Kostenki:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014...nki-14-genome/

    "The results also show Kostenki 14 as having derived alleles associated with red hair, milk digestion, Mongoloid light skin, and blond hair and blue eyes. Some caution must be exercised in interpreting these results, because the Kostenki 14 genome is not nearly as high-coverage as some of the other prehistoric genomes. But the results also can’t simply be dismissed, because it’s not impossible that Kostenki 14 did have the derived alleles shown below."

    That could explain why we find these features to the different group of peoples in Europe; and Kostenti has already the same three ancestors that the modern European (it was already a very big surprise).
    K-14 only had a red hair marker. He had ancestral dark alleles for everything else. Geneticker must be referring to genes that are very weakly associated with pale traits. The dude lived 38,000 years ago, so there's no way a hair-eye color test based on modern people will work on him anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    West Eurasians mixed with Neanderthals only in the Middle East, so we must suppose that all Neanderthals had that red hair mutation, because the humans also have it.
    We don't know where all the mixing went. It started in Near East, because it was the first contact area between H Sapiens from Africa and Neanderthals. When the first mixing happened there were no West Eurasians yet, just black people from Africa.

    Now, for these Africans to populate the North they needed to lighten up. What is the easiest way to get lighter skin? Wait tens of thousands of years for one to show up accidently, or "borrow" existing one from Neanderthals? As long as they could have offspring together, the later was way easier option.

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