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Thread: Mesolithic source of Pale pigmentation in modern Europe?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Mesolithic source of Pale pigmentation in modern Europe?

    or or both?

    I posted yesterday about the discovery of several red hair variants discovered in Mesolithic Sweden, along with a blonde variant, 7/7 blue eyes, and majority having light skin mutations. Now I'm posting about the Samara_HG who is consistent with the trend of pale Mesolithic Europeans. Geneticker just added the individual from Mesolithic Samara Russia to his phenotype list.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...storic-europe/

    I was very surprised to learn he had light skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes. Not only that but he had TT in rs12203592, and note that all Mesolithic Euros tested for that SNP to date have at least one T allele except (genetically Mesolithic)K01 from Hungary. The Mesolithic individual from Karelia is consistant with EHG and SHG light pigmentation because had light skin(But CG in rs16891982 not GG), brown eyes, and dark hair.

    EHG and SHG so far are consistent with being significantly lighter skinned and haired than WHG. Although some WHG may have been light haired to because several blonde variants and a red hair variant have been found the LBK samples who were supposedly a mix of Neolithic west Asians and WHG.

    Could SHG, EHG, and even WHG have passed down high frequencies of pale genes to modern Europeans? We'll have to wait for more samples to have that question answered. Just last week if my life depended on it I would say little to no Mesolithic Europeans had anything but dark hair because of the samples we had so far.

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    I originally thought fair skin/ light hair was a mesolithic trait but then I abandoned the idea once we started getting genomes from WHG and they had dark phenotypes.

    These new findings are confusing.... and exciting. If I read those charts correctly, it would seem the R1B Samara HG is actually fairer than the more Northern R1A Karelia HG. Weird and unexpected!

    The plot thickens.

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    The hunter gatherers seem to be a mixed group phenotypically. I wonder if this is evidence that they are ethnically diverse and not as uniform genetically as we believe.

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    We only have two EHG samples. The Karelia_HG having brown eyes is just revealing EHG had multiple eye colors, like Euros today. It doesn't mean EHG in Karelia were all brown eyed and EHG in Samara were all blue eyed.

    I kept saying over and over last year that all the markers that cause light skin in modern Europe are not known and so Mesolithic Euros could have been light skinned in the same way. I also left room for the possibility they're the main source of pale pigmentation in modern Europe, and was ridiculed and called a raciest.

    Now we have EHG and SHG samples going along with what that idea. Several people here at Eupedia need to understand paying attention to the pigmentation of ancient people isn't raciest. I'm as open to saying they were dark skinned as I am to saying they were light skinned. I'm simply interested in learning how they looked and don't have an agenda.

    I'm afraid how the media and public are going to react to the news that pale pigmentation has been in Europe since at least the Mesolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    The hunter gatherers seem to be a mixed group phenotypically. I wonder if this is evidence that they are ethnically diverse and not as uniform genetically as we believe.
    Could be, only future research can tell if they were mixed. Some may have been brown skinned and some may have been light skinned, even within the same family. I see that as a possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post

    I kept saying over and over last year that all the markers that cause light skin in modern Europe are not known and so Mesolithic Euros could have been light skinned in the same way. I also left room for the possibility they're the main source of pale pigmentation in modern Europe, and was ridiculed and called a raciest.
    .
    I'm sure it was more about how you presented the hypothesis and not about idea itself.


    Before we were getting brownish skin WHG from Europe, I imagined that blondism showed up on North side of Black Sea, at the end of Ice Age refuge, and then migrated North and West into current (maximum blondism) location when weather warmed up. To get brownish WHG was a bit confusing. I'm still thinking that they were not as brown as people imagine and could carry additional genes, unknown alleles, of white skin that are not "in use" today, perhaps more copies of less efficient genes. The same why the white mutations of Neanderthal are not present today. More efficient mutations "delete" the old ones.

    There are many mutations leading to today's fully blond person, so there was definitely fusion of many HGs and Farmers genes leading to blondism. From the link supplied I can see that Motala HGs carried some blond genes and not necessarily the same as Samara HGs, the farmers had same distinct ones too.

    Thanks for posting the finds.

    PS. Looks like both HGs were lactose intolerant.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I'm afraid how the media and public are going to react to the news that pale pigmentation has been in Europe since at least the Mesolithic.
    I`m sure the media couldn`t care less or knows the first thing about anthropology. Most of them would probably assume that as a fact anyhow. If you haven`t noticed, there are important things going on in the world than the hair pigments of 8,000 year old hunter gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    I`m sure the media couldn`t care less or knows the first thing about anthropology. Most of them would probably assume that as a fact anyhow. If you haven`t noticed, there are important things going on in the world than the hair pigments of 8,000 year old hunter gatherers.
    True that.

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    Very interesting, Fire-Haired. Are you talking about the results that are appearing on the Genetiker Blog? I haven't been following it. Were all the de-pigmentation snps for particular individuals collected and then run through Hirsplex to come up with a prediction by sample?

    Kudos to the poster "JeanL" on Anthrogenica btw; I think he was the first one to notice some de-pigmentation snps in the Motala samples.

    Since you seem to have been following this, do the Yamnaya samples come in derived for SLC24A5 as we had speculated? (We know they didn't have modern levels of the derived alleles for SLC42A5 because Sandra Wilde tested for that one.)

    Also, am I understanding you correctly that the Karelia Hunter Gatherer (R1a) also didn't have the derived alleles? How does he compare to the Samara Hunter Gatherer (R1b)?

    So, basically, in terms of Hunter-Gatherers and the derived alleles, are we just talking about the Motala ones? Also, is there a compilation somewhere that lists all the depigmentation derived alleles for each sample?


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    he is slowly doing them all

    Below are the genotypes for SNPs that have a large effect on phenotype for 53 of the 69 newly available genomes from prehistoric Europe.

    an extra 18 done in last 2 days ..................spanish sample included recently
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very interesting, Fire-Haired. Are you talking about the results that are appearing on the Genetiker Blog? I haven't been following it. Were all the de-pigmentation snps for particular individuals collected and then run through Hirsplex to come up with a prediction by sample?

    Kudos to the poster "JeanL" on Anthrogenica btw; I think he was the first one to notice some de-pigmentation snps in the Motala samples.

    Since you seem to have been following this, do the Yamnaya samples come in derived for SLC24A5 as we had speculated? (We know they didn't have modern levels of the derived alleles for SLC42A5 because Sandra Wilde tested for that one.)

    Also, am I understanding you correctly that the Karelia Hunter Gatherer (R1a) also didn't have the derived alleles? How does he compare to the Samara Hunter Gatherer (R1b)?

    So, basically, in terms of Hunter-Gatherers and the derived alleles, are we just talking about the Motala ones? Also, is there a compilation somewhere that lists all the depigmentation derived alleles for each sample?
    Here's a link to Geneticker's post with the phenotype SNPs.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...storic-europe/

    Here's a link to many ancient individuals Hirisplex predictions.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1862023606

    We've known about Motala12 having derived skin-color alleles since last March. We all thought it was a fluke, including me. Now my opinion is starting to change because of Sf11 and the 2 EHG genomes. jeanL is now making us more aware of the EHG and SHG trend, and showing Motala12 wasn't a fluke.

    2/2 Yamna indviduals have rs1426654 AA. 2/2 EHGs and AG2(Upper Palaeolithic ANE) had it(unless it's a miss read or contamination) and most EEFs do, so it makes sense Yamna does. Yamna alleles in those two other SNPs are consistent with Wilde. 2014.

    Bronze age/Late Neolithic Germans have more derived alleles in the three SNPs tested by Wilde/ 2014 than Yamna-Catacomb but more dark alleles than modern north Europeans. All the Bell beaker and Corded ware tested so far in rs12913832 have brown eyes and most of the other Bronze age Germans do to and a decent number have a C allele in rs16891982.

    The Samara HG had GG in rs16891982 and rs12913832. The Karelia HG had GC in rs16891982 and AA in rs12913832. Also the Samara HG had TT in rs12203592 and CC in rs12821256, while the Karelia HG had two ancestral alleles in both. So, both according to Hirisplex are light skinned, but the Karelia HG is brown eyed and dark haired while the Samara HG is blue eyed and blonde haired.

    So far SHG and EHG mostly have derived alleles in both rs16891982 and rs1426654. The only ones that don't are Ajv58 and two of the Moatals. We now have 4 different sites of unrelated(even the Motalas) SHG and EHG individuals telling the same story.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here are two links showing rs12913832 calls in modern pops.

    http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=15:28365118-28366118;v=rs12913832;vdb=variation;vf=9124585

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013...p-populations/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Here are two links showing rs12913832 calls in modern pops.

    http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=15:28365118-28366118;v=rs12913832;vdb=variation;vf=9124585

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013...p-populations/

    Thanks for the links. The results for the Italian HGDP populations for genotype seem accurate based on sheer observation (about 40% GG for Lombards and 25% for Tuscans). The rate for the Veneto would be even higher. Interesting that the Lombards are only 8% AA.

    The results for the Tuscans for allele frequency seem pretty robust...about 42% for the presence of G in both sample sets if I'm reading it correctly.

    On the other hand, the results seem a little counter intuitive for the Orcadians. However, I'm not familiar with them, so I'll let others speak to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the links. The results for the Italian HGDP populations for genotype seem accurate based on sheer observation (about 40% GG for Lombards and 25% for Tuscans). The rate for the Veneto would be even higher. Interesting that the Lombards are only 8% AA.

    The results for the Tuscans for allele frequency seem pretty robust...about 42% for the presence of G in both sample sets if I'm reading it correctly.

    On the other hand, the results seem a little counter intuitive for the Orcadians. However, I'm not familiar with them, so I'll let others speak to that.
    A little? More like they flagrantly contradict actually observed values. Orcadians are in fact the lightest population in Scotland according to actual anthropological observations (information on the subject can be found in The People of Orkney by Robert James Berry and Howie N. Firth, 1986.) Pigmentation "predictions" based on a few SNPs are hardly reliable.

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    So, there is a good chance EHG is found as source of Baltic blondism. Makes perfect sense.

    Is there a population list by EHG admixture %? Then I could find somewhere on net say blond hair % list and see if there is modern correlation between two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Here are two links showing rs12913832 calls in modern pops.

    http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=15:28365118-28366118;v=rs12913832;vdb=variation;vf=9124585

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013...p-populations/
    now that all 69 samples are done, why is their 3 groupings for skin colour
    2 x Caucasus types and 1 as light skin with no freckling

    Any idea where these come from?
    I presume the light skin with no freckles would be BMAC , since it it not caucasus

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    So, there is a good chance EHG is found as source of Baltic blondism. Makes perfect sense.

    Is there a population list by EHG admixture %? Then I could find somewhere on net say blond hair % list and see if there is modern correlation between two.
    I would think, if anything, it would be SHG, yes? Karelia is EHG and had dark hair?

    There are some percentages for EHG for some populations in the Haak and Lazardis et al paper. It's in the Resnorm graphic, but it doesn't include all populations.
    Lazaridis and Haak resnorm table.JPG

    The Finns and the Lithuanians appear to be about 22% EHG? Then there's the WHG percentage...31% in Lithuanians plus 2.7% Nganasan. Then there's the 44% "EN", of course.

    I think some caution is still in order in terms of concluding where each particular snp arose and how it spread, however. We only have three WHG samples. Perhaps some will be discovered that have de-pigmentation snps that correlate more strongly with skin and hair. Also, although the SLC42A5 has a definite hotspot in Scandinavia if these results are accurate, I'm not so sure about SLC24A5 originating there.

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    So I guess we can put a fork in the theory that Europeans became lighter because of cereal farming and a subsequent lack of vitamin D.

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    If one looks at pigmentation there is a clear trend from the equator to the north to become gradually lighter. It is even visible in Sub-Saharan Africa, as the San are slightly lighter skinned. IIRC also Tasmanian Aboriginals were reputed (There are no full blooded Tasmanians left anymore) to be lighter than continentals.

    Maybe it's like the HG's also had that skin lightening trend to the north and that the neolithic transition basically pushed that gradient southwards rather than abolish HG darkness.

    EDIT: Isn't La Brana darker than Loschbour? Today the Spanish are slightly swarthier than Luxembourgians.

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    Here's a spreadsheet of all the red hair variants Geneticker tested (most of)the Haak genomes for and the indviduals who were carriers. I also put the percentage of carriers in the HGDP pops and ave a link to a 23andme article giving red hair varient percentages. R151C(rs1805007) is the most popular red hair variant in modern and ancient pops. R160W(rs1805008) is about equally popular in modern pops, but we only have one ancient example so far. The other red hair variants are very unpopular in modern and ancient pops.


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1542882145


    ~30-45% of north Euros(FIN, CEU, GBR) and ~10-15% of south Euros(TSI, IBS) are carriers of red hair via R151C(rs1805007) and R160W(rs1805008). R151C(rs1805007) was found in Upper Palaeolithic Russia, Mesolithic Sweden, Samara Yamna, German Bell Beaker, and German Urnfield. R160W(rs1805008) has only been found in Mesolithic Sweden.


    Two African pops, all Latin American(Largely Spanish) pops, and one east Asian pop had red hair carriers. I bet the two African pops and maybe the east Asian pop have some European ancestry. All the south Asian pops had red hair carriers. I tend to think they don't get it from European ancestry but instead distant common ancestry with Europeans.


    Because of the existence of red hair variants in Mesolithic Sweden and that there's documented existence of red hair in the middle east and central Asia, I think red hair has been around since the Upper Palaeolithic. The few statistics I've seen say it's most popular in north Europe(inclu. Northeast), and IMO in Europe it's Mesolithic(WHG?, SHG, EHG) descended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    So, there is a good chance EHG is found as source of Baltic blondism. Makes perfect sense.

    Is there a population list by EHG admixture %? Then I could find somewhere on net say blond hair % list and see if there is modern correlation between two.
    The Mesolithic Karelian probably had dark hair and the Mesolithic man from Samara probably had blonde hair. A Mesolithic woman from Motala, Sweden was a carrier of the same blonde variant(but was just a carrier), as were two individuals from Neolithic Hungary.

    Blonde hair very likely existed in EEF, SHG, EHG, and maybe even WHG. It's hard to trace it's popularity in modern pops to one ancient source.

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    hmm

    is there anybody that believes or wonders about or if red hair came from neantherdal?

    could neanderdalis to was a red haired?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The Mesolithic Karelian probably had dark hair and the Mesolithic man from Samara probably had blonde hair. A Mesolithic woman from Motala, Sweden was a carrier of the same blonde variant(but was just a carrier), as were two individuals from Neolithic Hungary.

    Blonde hair very likely existed in EEF, SHG, EHG, and maybe even WHG. It's hard to trace it's popularity in modern pops to one ancient source.
    That's because it took all of their lighter mutations to produce today's blondest European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's because it took all of their lighter mutations to produce today's blondest European.
    That's possible I guess. Hirisplex may be totally irrelevant when looking at people from certain eras.

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    I was quite confident I would find nice table with average blond hair percents in Euro countries on the net :)
    I found only few maps instead, and gonna use this one:
    europe-hair0223--light-h.jpg

    Ok, guys sample was small, but fixed stuff for me nicely. Please find the graphs below from my Excel:

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