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So lest's call this tomb "Celtic" as it is Hallstattian.Originally Posted by Sile
no, the tomb is on the LaTene side and not the hallstatt side
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
A Hallstattian tomb means a tomb from the Hallstatt period which ends in the middle of the Vth century. The tomb is probably from the 1st half of the Vth century, so is Hallstattian, as are Vix or Heuneburg.
La Tene side doesn't mlean anything.
it's a pity I've not the link at hand just now but I red a Survey speaking about females considered at first as males based upon statureand frontal partly rugginess, and reconsidered because their pelvis –allas I don't remember if the first impression was strengthened byweapons presence. I think it was in Germany ancient tombs... SorryThere should have been at least some, perhaps even reaching 1% of the tombs with swords, but I haven't found any example (except one from the Przeworsk culture). So can you provide examples?
As far as texts are concerned, I don't remember so many texts with women fighting with swords, here alsoperhaps reaching 0,1% of the texts mentioning fighting men(I know a few texts indicating women fighting, but I don't remember that these texts were indicating they were fighting with swords)? Can you also provide examples?
However, coming back to the Celtic tomb of Lavau, the only reason why all the articles say it is the tomb of a prince is the presence of a sword, which indicates it's very probably a man.
I was attending a conference by Stéphane Verger about this Celtic tomb last week, and when he said that the DNA tests had not been yet done, somebody asked: "So how do we know it's not a princess?", he answered; "thanks to the sword".
I'm sure he is familiar enough with the Celtic culture and archaeology to be almost certain he is right...
a
to SILE
the distinction celtic-gallic seems irrelevant for specialists, at linguistic level at least - have you something to precise us?
they do seperate Celtic into
Gaelic
Noric
gallic
Galatian
celti-iberian
belgae
and many more......................the term celtic is misleading and is a term from the eighties.
The first recorded use of the term "Celtae" to refer to the various Celtic speaking tribes was by the Greek geographer Heataeus of Miletus in 517 BC. The modern use of the term "Celt" came into vogue among ethnographers about 300 years ago.
OK if you want to split hairs
Celtic had two means: 1- the language of Gauls named Galli or Celti according to Latins and Greeks if I remember well - 2 as you say, a "bag" term for very close branches of I-E (what became Gaelic, Brittonic, Gaulish (not a so sure term because there were maybe gaeliclike dialects even in Gallia), Celtiberic, Lepontic, surely too Belgic and ...? to discover!
Galatian is a term employed for Eastern Celts (after Iron I think): greek term too - no true linguistic distinctive value, I think -
HERE I was speaking about the difference tou seem putting between Gallic (La Tène for you?) and the language of Hallstatt people (unkown to us today, for I know):
and as said by Diviacus there is no big difference of territories between celtic (sorry for the term) Hallstatt and La T7ne: only differences of way to settle in the territory
and differences of period too, of course!
As you said in your later post, the difference between "Hallstatt" and "La Tene" is a question of period.
The territories are only the results of the artefacts that have been found, corresponding to one or the other period. The usual maps where we can see a "La Tene area" and a "Hallstatt area" show only the areas where the density of findings is high.
For instance, we can look at the following map, showing the wheel cart graves from the VIIIth to the Vth century BC.
We can see that there are 3 wheel carts graves of the VIth century in Western "present France", ( so Hallstattian graves), very far from the Hallstattian core.
Brown : wheel cart graves from the VIIIth and VIIth centuries
Yellow : whell carts from the VIth century
Green : whell carts from the Vth century
thanks for this map -
for the little I red, the center of gravity changed between the 2 periods, but yes, some places knew the 2 cultural successive aspects, without big changes in population composition (what is not NO change as I already wrote - but even in the same provinces or small regions, a change appeared in settlements and social hyerarchy between the 2 periods, showing a narrower "fork" or differences in La Tène, less manifestations of "shameless richess" (I've not the personal knowledge to evaluate the accuracy of specialists here, I 'm obliged to believe them - maybe a first introgression of small dominant groups pulling behind them the previous elites before being demographically assimilated by number -
I red something by Peake (very old work) about different types of swords of these period with very great variance in Hungary and more specific regional groups in North 'DK), South (Italy) or West Europe (Celts?) - but I have no more this book at hand - could it have helped us for the present question, I don't know?
I found some papers about warrior women buried with swords :
according to Mike Adamson, the females envolved in war or social power/leadership were rare but real - present among Celts (it's only a report, Ithink) and among Sauro-Sarmatians and Saka (Eastern Steppes), but absent in Scythians society - accroding to him the females could have taken part in the open society life (and war) through the horse use -
Sophie Bergerbrant speaking about Scandinavia / North Germany Lünerburg, wrote long phrases about sex and gender (as Adamson) and spoke about female tombs there, but (I didn't read all the paper, it requires soud-bicarbonate to digere), but according to her, the swords in female tombs were under the form of the distant half of a broken sword blade, only...
I say: the most of the time (99%) the swords tombs are males tombs, but in this case (this thread) we CANNOT exclude a female's tomb -
THE MORE IMPORTANT : TO WAIT THE DNA RESULTS
wait and see
you're an idiot.
Gallic is Celtic if for no other reason Old Gaullish is a well proven Celtic language (P-Celtic)
plus the Greeks and Romans all referred to both,the Halstatt and La Tene peoples/cultures as Celtae which is where the word came from
al modern day (2015)historians, archeologists etc...... refer to and call both the Halstatt and La Tene cultres as Celtic,and I think they would know more than you, no offense
when you get a Phd on the subject let us know.
As far as I know, no Celtic female tomb has been attested with a sword (Mike Adamson doesn't provide any example). Obviously we may found one in the future, but it's unlikely. With the thousands of graves excavated, if we haven't found one, it means that the female ritual was not to put a sword in a female tomb (the fact that women may have used a sword is not equivalent to the fact that they have been buried with a sword). We could say the same with the razor : they have been only found in men's tombs (which cannot exclude that we may find one, but it's unlikely).
So the probability that the dead of Lavau would be a man is certainly > 99,9%, which is not only "most of the time".
The alps where not full of gallic people when Celts formed la Tene in the west and Halstatt in the east of the lower northern alps. La Tene was on the Helvetica side and halstatt was in Noricum, the illyric side , named after the Nori people who once celtinized became known as Norici
There was no cultural discontinuity between Hallstatt and La Tene. Scholars have agreed on a specific date after which the culture was to be referred to as La Tene rather than Halstatt, and the separate name was applied to the period when the culture expanded westward and also came under the influence of Etruscans and also Greeks who had settled in what is now southern France. So the two cultures can be distinguished in the sense that La Tene is a continuation of Hallstatt. And since we know that La Tene people spoke a Celtic language, it's reasonable to believe that Halstatt people did as well, or at least that most Hallstatt people did. And the Gallic people are simply the continuation of the La Tene culture in a specific geographical area during the Roman era.
The logic is circular, since in most cases archeologists did not test the genetics of the bodies they found and assumed that if one was found with a sword, it must be male. They made the same mistake with Scythian finds, but subsequent DNA testing showed that a small percentage of those Scythian men who were buried with swords were actually women. I'm sure that if some of those Celtic finds were tested for DNA, a small percentage of those who were buried with swords would be found to be women. And the reason I think that is because there's some evidence that in both the Scythian and Celtic cultures, the right to bear arms had more to do with social class than gender.
Contrary to what you say, in most cases archeologists identified the sex by looking at the bones. As written by the Archaeological Center of Bibracte, sex can be identified by the pelvic bones (95% reliability) and the skull bones (90% reliability). So it's not a circular logic.
Thanks to these examinations, hundreds of Celtic skeletons have been identified as female skeletons. In these tombs, no sword, no razor, no tools (except textile and leather tools) have been found.
Lest's speak about the Celts. Do you mean the Celtic armies were full of women? Unhappily Caesar has not seen one, or at least not quoted one, during the 7 years spent in Gaul. Just be serious. The warriors were obviously men, with very marginal exceptions.
Relating to our discussion about "female warriors":
http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...ains-was-male/
It's now confirmed that the dead of Lavau was a male.
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