Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 45 of 45

Thread: Celtic Tomb Sheds Light On Iron Age Trade

  1. #26
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    La tene was referred to as Gallic and Hallstatt was referred to as celtic, because Hallstatt sits in ancient illyrian homeland and Illyrians are not gallic

    referring everything as celtic is not exacting and is going backwards to the eighties in terms of origins of people........I will not be a part of this .........something you seem to head to
    So lest's call this tomb "Celtic" as it is Hallstattian.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    So lest's call this tomb "Celtic" as it is Hallstattian.
    no, the tomb is on the LaTene side and not the hallstatt side
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #28
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    no, the tomb is on the LaTene side and not the hallstatt side
    A Hallstattian tomb means a tomb from the Hallstatt period which ends in the middle of the Vth century. The tomb is probably from the 1st half of the Vth century, so is Hallstattian, as are Vix or Heuneburg.
    La Tene side doesn't mlean anything.


  4. #29
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,844

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    There should have been at least some, perhaps even reaching 1% of the tombs with swords, but I haven't found any example (except one from the Przeworsk culture). So can you provide examples?

    As far as texts are concerned, I don't remember so many texts with women fighting with swords, here alsoperhaps reaching 0,1% of the texts mentioning fighting men(I know a few texts indicating women fighting, but I don't remember that these texts were indicating they were fighting with swords)? Can you also provide examples?

    However, coming back to the Celtic tomb of Lavau, the only reason why all the articles say it is the tomb of a prince is the presence of a sword, which indicates it's very probably a man.
    I was attending a conference by Stéphane Verger about this Celtic tomb last week, and when he said that the DNA tests had not been yet done, somebody asked: "So how do we know it's not a princess?", he answered; "thanks to the sword".
    I'm sure he is familiar enough with the Celtic culture and archaeology to be almost certain he is right...
    it's a pity I've not the link at hand just now but I red a Survey speaking about females considered at first as males based upon statureand frontal partly rugginess, and reconsidered because their pelvis –allas I don't remember if the first impression was strengthened byweapons presence. I think it was in Germany ancient tombs... Sorry
    a

  5. #30
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,844

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    to SILE
    the distinction celtic-gallic seems irrelevant for specialists, at linguistic level at least - have you something to precise us?

  6. #31
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    to SILE
    the distinction celtic-gallic seems irrelevant for specialists, at linguistic level at least - have you something to precise us?
    they do seperate Celtic into
    Gaelic
    Noric
    gallic
    Galatian
    celti-iberian
    belgae
    and many more......................the term celtic is misleading and is a term from the eighties.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    they do seperate Celtic into
    Gaelic
    Noric
    gallic
    Galatian
    celti-iberian
    belgae
    and many more......................the term celtic is misleading and is a term from the eighties.
    The first recorded use of the term "Celtae" to refer to the various Celtic speaking tribes was by the Greek geographer Heataeus of Miletus in 517 BC. The modern use of the term "Celt" came into vogue among ethnographers about 300 years ago.

  8. #33
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,844

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    they do seperate Celtic into
    Gaelic
    Noric
    gallic
    Galatian
    celti-iberian
    belgae
    and many more......................the term celtic is misleading and is a term from the eighties.
    OK if you want to split hairs
    Celtic had two means: 1- the language of Gauls named Galli or Celti according to Latins and Greeks if I remember well - 2 as you say, a "bag" term for very close branches of I-E (what became Gaelic, Brittonic, Gaulish (not a so sure term because there were maybe gaeliclike dialects even in Gallia), Celtiberic, Lepontic, surely too Belgic and ...? to discover!
    Galatian is a term employed for Eastern Celts (after Iron I think): greek term too - no true linguistic distinctive value, I think -
    HERE I was speaking about the difference tou seem putting between Gallic (La Tène for you?) and the language of Hallstatt people (unkown to us today, for I know):
    and as said by Diviacus there is no big difference of territories between celtic (sorry for the term) Hallstatt and La T7ne: only differences of way to settle in the territory

  9. #34
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,844

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    and differences of period too, of course!

  10. #35
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    ...and as said by Diviacus there is no big difference of territories between celtic (sorry for the term) Hallstatt and La T7ne: only differences of way to settle in the territory
    As you said in your later post, the difference between "Hallstatt" and "La Tene" is a question of period.
    The territories are only the results of the artefacts that have been found, corresponding to one or the other period. The usual maps where we can see a "La Tene area" and a "Hallstatt area" show only the areas where the density of findings is high.

    For instance, we can look at the following map, showing the wheel cart graves from the VIIIth to the Vth century BC.
    We can see that there are 3 wheel carts graves of the VIth century in Western "present France", ( so Hallstattian graves), very far from the Hallstattian core.




    Brown : wheel cart graves from the VIIIth and VIIth centuries
    Yellow : whell carts from the VIth century
    Green : whell carts from the Vth century

  11. #36
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,844

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    thanks for this map -
    for the little I red, the center of gravity changed between the 2 periods, but yes, some places knew the 2 cultural successive aspects, without big changes in population composition (what is not NO change as I already wrote - but even in the same provinces or small regions, a change appeared in settlements and social hyerarchy between the 2 periods, showing a narrower "fork" or differences in La Tène, less manifestations of "shameless richess" (I've not the personal knowledge to evaluate the accuracy of specialists here, I 'm obliged to believe them - maybe a first introgression of small dominant groups pulling behind them the previous elites before being demographically assimilated by number -
    I red something by Peake (very old work) about different types of swords of these period with very great variance in Hungary and more specific regional groups in North 'DK), South (Italy) or West Europe (Celts?) - but I have no more this book at hand - could it have helped us for the present question, I don't know?

  12. #37
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,844

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    thanks for this map -
    for the little I red, the center of gravity changed between the 2 periods, but yes, some places knew the 2 cultural successive aspects, without big changes in population composition (what is not NO change as I already wrote - but even in the same provinces or small regions, a change appeared in settlements and social hyerarchy between the 2 periods, showing a narrower "fork" or differences in La Tène, less manifestations of "shameless richess" (I've not the personal knowledge to evaluate the accuracy of specialists here, I 'm obliged to believe them - maybe a first introgression of small dominant groups pulling behind them the previous elites before being demographically assimilated by number -
    I red something by Peake (very old work) about different types of swords of these period with very great variance in Hungary and more specific regional groups in North 'DK), South (Italy) or West Europe (Celts?) - but I have no more this book at hand - could it have helped us for the present question, I don't know?
    I found some papers about warrior women buried with swords :
    according to Mike Adamson, the females envolved in war or social power/leadership were rare but real - present among Celts (it's only a report, Ithink) and among Sauro-Sarmatians and Saka (Eastern Steppes), but absent in Scythians society - accroding to him the females could have taken part in the open society life (and war) through the horse use -
    Sophie Bergerbrant speaking about Scandinavia / North Germany Lünerburg, wrote long phrases about sex and gender (as Adamson) and spoke about female tombs there, but (I didn't read all the paper, it requires soud-bicarbonate to digere), but according to her, the swords in female tombs were under the form of the distant half of a broken sword blade, only...
    I say: the most of the time (99%) the swords tombs are males tombs, but in this case (this thread) we CANNOT exclude a female's tomb -
    THE MORE IMPORTANT : TO WAIT THE DNA RESULTS
    wait and see

  13. #38
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-03-15
    Posts
    17

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21+L1335+L1065+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    (Anglo-Celtic)-mixed West Country English/ Scotch-Irish/ Palatine German
    Country: USA - Tennessee



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    La tene was referred to as Gallic and Hallstatt was referred to as celtic, because Hallstatt sits in ancient illyrian homeland and Illyrians are not gallic

    referring everything as celtic is not exacting and is going backwards to the eighties in terms of origins of people........I will not be a part of this .........something you seem to head to
    you're an idiot.

    Gallic is Celtic if for no other reason Old Gaullish is a well proven Celtic language (P-Celtic)

    plus the Greeks and Romans all referred to both,the Halstatt and La Tene peoples/cultures as Celtae which is where the word came from

    al modern day (2015)historians, archeologists etc...... refer to and call both the Halstatt and La Tene cultres as Celtic,and I think they would know more than you, no offense


    when you get a Phd on the subject let us know.

  14. #39
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I found some papers about warrior women buried with swords :
    according to Mike Adamson, the females envolved in war or social power/leadership were rare but real - present among Celts (it's only a report, Ithink) and among Sauro-Sarmatians and Saka (Eastern Steppes), but absent in Scythians society - accroding to him the females could have taken part in the open society life (and war) through the horse use -
    Sophie Bergerbrant speaking about Scandinavia / North Germany Lünerburg, wrote long phrases about sex and gender (as Adamson) and spoke about female tombs there, but (I didn't read all the paper, it requires soud-bicarbonate to digere), but according to her, the swords in female tombs were under the form of the distant half of a broken sword blade, only...
    I say: the most of the time (99%) the swords tombs are males tombs, but in this case (this thread) we CANNOT exclude a female's tomb -
    THE MORE IMPORTANT : TO WAIT THE DNA RESULTS
    wait and see
    As far as I know, no Celtic female tomb has been attested with a sword (Mike Adamson doesn't provide any example). Obviously we may found one in the future, but it's unlikely. With the thousands of graves excavated, if we haven't found one, it means that the female ritual was not to put a sword in a female tomb (the fact that women may have used a sword is not equivalent to the fact that they have been buried with a sword). We could say the same with the razor : they have been only found in men's tombs (which cannot exclude that we may find one, but it's unlikely).
    So the probability that the dead of Lavau would be a man is certainly > 99,9%, which is not only "most of the time".

  15. #40
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by UltraViolence View Post
    you're an idiot.

    Gallic is Celtic if for no other reason Old Gaullish is a well proven Celtic language (P-Celtic)

    plus the Greeks and Romans all referred to both,the Halstatt and La Tene peoples/cultures as Celtae which is where the word came from

    al modern day (2015)historians, archeologists etc...... refer to and call both the Halstatt and La Tene cultres as Celtic,and I think they would know more than you, no offense


    when you get a Phd on the subject let us know.
    The alps where not full of gallic people when Celts formed la Tene in the west and Halstatt in the east of the lower northern alps. La Tene was on the Helvetica side and halstatt was in Noricum, the illyric side , named after the Nori people who once celtinized became known as Norici

  16. #41
    Regular Member Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The alps where not full of gallic people when Celts formed la Tene in the west and Halstatt in the east of the lower northern alps. La Tene was on the Helvetica side and halstatt was in Noricum, the illyric side , named after the Nori people who once celtinized became known as Norici
    There was no cultural discontinuity between Hallstatt and La Tene. Scholars have agreed on a specific date after which the culture was to be referred to as La Tene rather than Halstatt, and the separate name was applied to the period when the culture expanded westward and also came under the influence of Etruscans and also Greeks who had settled in what is now southern France. So the two cultures can be distinguished in the sense that La Tene is a continuation of Hallstatt. And since we know that La Tene people spoke a Celtic language, it's reasonable to believe that Halstatt people did as well, or at least that most Hallstatt people did. And the Gallic people are simply the continuation of the La Tene culture in a specific geographical area during the Roman era.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    As far as I know, no Celtic female tomb has been attested with a sword (Mike Adamson doesn't provide any example). Obviously we may found one in the future, but it's unlikely. With the thousands of graves excavated, if we haven't found one, it means that the female ritual was not to put a sword in a female tomb (the fact that women may have used a sword is not equivalent to the fact that they have been buried with a sword). We could say the same with the razor : they have been only found in men's tombs (which cannot exclude that we may find one, but it's unlikely).
    So the probability that the dead of Lavau would be a man is certainly > 99,9%, which is not only "most of the time".
    The logic is circular, since in most cases archeologists did not test the genetics of the bodies they found and assumed that if one was found with a sword, it must be male. They made the same mistake with Scythian finds, but subsequent DNA testing showed that a small percentage of those Scythian men who were buried with swords were actually women. I'm sure that if some of those Celtic finds were tested for DNA, a small percentage of those who were buried with swords would be found to be women. And the reason I think that is because there's some evidence that in both the Scythian and Celtic cultures, the right to bear arms had more to do with social class than gender.

  18. #43
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    The logic is circular, since in most cases archeologists did not test the genetics of the bodies they found and assumed that if one was found with a sword, it must be male.
    Contrary to what you say, in most cases archeologists identified the sex by looking at the bones. As written by the Archaeological Center of Bibracte, sex can be identified by the pelvic bones (95% reliability) and the skull bones (90% reliability). So it's not a circular logic.
    Thanks to these examinations, hundreds of Celtic skeletons have been identified as female skeletons. In these tombs, no sword, no razor, no tools (except textile and leather tools) have been found.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    And the reason I think that is because there's some evidence that in both the Scythian and Celtic cultures, the right to bear arms had more to do with social class than gender.
    Lest's speak about the Celts. Do you mean the Celtic armies were full of women? Unhappily Caesar has not seen one, or at least not quoted one, during the 7 years spent in Gaul. Just be serious. The warriors were obviously men, with very marginal exceptions.

  19. #44
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Relating to our discussion about "female warriors":
    http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...ains-was-male/

  20. #45
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    It's now confirmed that the dead of Lavau was a male.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •