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Thread: Celtic Tomb Sheds Light On Iron Age Trade

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    Celtic Tomb Sheds Light On Iron Age Trade

    The article can be found here:
    http://www.archaeology.org/news/3061...ce-celtic-tomb

    Also see:
    http://www.connexionfrance.com/Iron-...w-article.html

    The 40m tumulous tomb was found in eastern France at Lavau in Champagne and is dated to the fifth century BC. The entire complex, including the palisade and ditch, is larger than the nearby cathedral at Troyes!

    "The major find so far has been a one-metre diameter giant bronze cauldron, with four circular handles decorated with the head of Acheloos, the horned Greek river-god, and eight lioness heads. Inside, a ceramic oinochoe wine jug is decorated with black figures and there is a drawing of Dionysos stretched under a vine.
    - See more at: http://www.connexionfrance.com/Iron-....NHurfx14.dpuf"

    This is the site:


    These are pictures of some of the artifacts created by Greek or Etruscan artisans and acquired through trade:






    I feel quite ghoulish saying this, but think of those lovely fresh bones that could be analyzed for a look at historic era Celts, and a Celtic prince no less!


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    What a wonderful find. I do hope that geneticists get a crack at those bones. But the archeological material seems fascinating just by itself.

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    quite spectucular, though there are other similar sites known in eastern France and southern Germany
    I hope they'll analyze some DNA, we don't have any from that period and that area

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    the bronze artifacts look more gallic than celtic to me............there appears no celtic "swirl" symbol on them
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Unfortunately,I have only been able have a quick read at the moment but this a beautiful find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the bronze artifacts look more gallic than celtic to me............there appears no celtic "swirl" symbol on them
    Given that the Gauls were Celts, you seem to be making a distinction without a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Given that the Gauls were Celts, you seem to be making a distinction without a difference.
    Not to mention that I specifically quoted the article to the effect that the artifacts were Greek and Etruscan ware and were acquired by these Celtic/Gallic whatever people by trade.

    This huge bronze cauldron was apparently the centerpiece for a banqueting table. I wonder if it held food or alcoholic beverages? I tried to do a little research but couldn't find anything. Perhaps with further testing they'll find some organic residue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the bronze artifacts look more gallic than celtic to me............there appears no celtic "swirl" symbol on them
    I think you mean La Tene art.
    Gallic is Celtic btw


    besides, the article clearly says they were imported from Greece or Italy or made by Greek or Etruscan craftsmen

    it wasn't unusual for Celtic kings/chiefs/princes or the elite to have things like that in their possession

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    Quote Originally Posted by UltraViolence View Post
    I think you mean La Tene art.
    Gallic is Celtic btw
    No, I mean what I said, to be exact, they do not look like helvetic art from La Tene, they look like central Gallic style. I do not see celtic art type here



    besides, the article clearly says they were imported from Greece or Italy or made by Greek or Etruscan craftsmen

    it wasn't unusual for Celtic kings/chiefs/princes or the elite to have things like that in their possession
    yes, but that theory applies for all of Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    No, I mean what I said, to be exact, they do not look like helvetic art from La Tene, they look like central Gallic style. I do not see celtic art type here





    yes, but that theory applies for all of Europe
    Okay, it's already been explained to you that the art was imported and made by Greeks and Etruscans and that if one uses the word "Gallic" in reference to that time period, one is talking about the Gauls, a Celtic group, so what are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Okay, it's already been explained to you that the art was imported and made by Greeks and Etruscans and that if one uses the word "Gallic" in reference to that time period, one is talking about the Gauls, a Celtic group, so what are you talking about?
    Okay, and I said yes

    He was talking about La Tene art.............there is no La tene art, it is Helvetic art

    Why do you not want exacting description , but want "celtic" . The term is non-exacting, its neither her nor there. it the same non exacting like saying Norse art. Where or what is Norse art...scandinavia .................not exacting enough for me.
    Lazy people use the term celtic art

    If you have a issue , do not reply..........your fuse is always short

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Okay, and I said yes

    He was talking about La Tene art.............there is no La tene art, it is Helvetic art

    Why do you not want exacting description , but want "celtic" . The term is non-exacting, its neither her nor there. it the same non exacting like saying Norse art. Where or what is Norse art...scandinavia .................not exacting enough for me.
    Lazy people use the term celtic art

    If you have a issue , do not reply..........your fuse is always short
    You were the one who was talking about "Celtic" swirls. That's a little lazy, don't you think?
    And, in any case, for the fourth or fifth time, most of the objects recovered from the tomb are imported, Greek or Etruscan made, so its a moot point.

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    More info on this tomb:

    1- First, we must use the word "Celtic" and not "Gaulish". At the beginning of the Vth century, the word Gaulish is not used. We are at the end of the Hallstatt period, and the the Prince buried here is clearly related to the Hallstattian area which is Celtic and not Gaulish.

    2- The tomb is one of the richest ever found, to be compared to Hochdorf or Vix ones.
    It contains 12 main artefacts :
    - A large cauldron, used for beverage, probably of Etruscan type, not as large as Vix one which is the largest known at present. It's the most ancient artefact, probably from the second half of the VIth century
    - a bronze cist, probably of a North Italian type (Bologna), beginning of the Vth century
    - a small drinking cup
    - two bronze basins, Etruscan type, Vth century
    - a silver colander
    - a perforated little spoon
    - a sword
    - an Attic oenochoe, with a scene showing a banquet with Dyonisios
    - parts of a ceramic vase (probably local manufacture)
    - parts of a two-wheeled cart (only parts of the right wheel), which may be fom the middle of the Vth century
    - a bronze vase cover (?)

    3- This tomb is one very close to 5 other similar tombs already found near Troyes : Estissac, Creney, Bouranton, Barberey Saint Sulpice, Buchères.
    These 6 tombs are probably at the limit of an ancient urban center (not found), controled by an aristocratic family.

    4- ADN tests will be made (we know it's a male thanks to the sword).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Okay, and I said yes

    He was talking about La Tene art.............there is no La tene art, it is Helvetic art

    Why do you not want exacting description , but want "celtic" . The term is non-exacting, its neither her nor there. it the same non exacting like saying Norse art. Where or what is Norse art...scandinavia .................not exacting enough for me.
    Lazy people use the term celtic art

    If you have a issue , do not reply..........your fuse is always short
    UltraViolence mentioned La Tene because we're trying to understand what you meant by calling the art "Gallic" and not Celtic. Strictly speaking, the term "Gallic" does not yet quite apply to the people of France 2500 years ago at the start of the Iron Age in France, when the Celtic Hallstatt culture was well on its way to becoming La Tene. And the term "Celtic" does have a specific linguistic meaning, and the Continental Celts did have some continuity of material culture that can be identified in archeological sites. As has been explained, the art doesn't look "Celtic" because it was made elsewhere. Applying the term "Gallic" is either a slight or a severe anachronism, depending on what you meant by it. So, were you referring to the Gauls (who were Celtic) or the French? And what were you trying to say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    More info on this tomb:

    1- First, we must use the word "Celtic" and not "Gaulish". At the beginning of the Vth century, the word Gaulish is not used. We are at the end of the Hallstatt period, and the the Prince buried here is clearly related to the Hallstattian area which is Celtic and not Gaulish.
    ...............................






    I realize that it is slightly anachronistic to refer to the Celts of what is now France of 2500 years ago as Gauls, but I was trying to understand what Sile meant by calling those Greek and Etruscan objects Gallic and not Celtic. I guess some mysteries aren't meant to be solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    More info on this tomb:

    1- First, we must use the word "Celtic" and not "Gaulish". At the beginning of the Vth century, the word Gaulish is not used. We are at the end of the Hallstatt period, and the the Prince buried here is clearly related to the Hallstattian area which is Celtic and not Gaulish.

    2- The tomb is one of the richest ever found, to be compared to Hochdorf or Vix ones.
    It contains 12 main artefacts :
    - A large cauldron, used for beverage, probably of Etruscan type, not as large as Vix one which is the largest known at present. It's the most ancient artefact, probably from the second half of the VIth century
    - a bronze cist, probably of a North Italian type (Bologna), beginning of the Vth century
    - a small drinking cup
    - two bronze basins, Etruscan type, Vth century
    - a silver colander
    - a perforated little spoon
    - a sword
    - an Attic oenochoe, with a scene showing a banquet with Dyonisios
    - parts of a ceramic vase (probably local manufacture)
    - parts of a two-wheeled cart (only parts of the right wheel), which may be fom the middle of the Vth century
    - a bronze vase cover (?)

    3- This tomb is one very close to 5 other similar tombs already found near Troyes : Estissac, Creney, Bouranton, Barberey Saint Sulpice, Buchères.
    These 6 tombs are probably at the limit of an ancient urban center (not found), controled by an aristocratic family.

    4- DNA tests will be made (we know it's a male thanks to the sword).
    yes I hope they will do several DNA tests soon

    Y-DNA, mtDNA ,and autosomal tests for these truly Celtic princely graves, that have been found dating the historical Celtic era.

    I hope they get to it soon.

    these are obviously the elite burials that are well known to be/come from that area..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Okay, and I said yes

    He was talking about La Tene art.............there is no La tene art, it is Helvetic art

    Why do you not want exacting description , but want "celtic" . The term is non-exacting, its neither her nor there. it the same non exacting like saying Norse art. Where or what is Norse art...scandinavia .................not exacting enough for me.
    Lazy people use the term celtic art
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts


    http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls

    http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetii

    http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt

    http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_art

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I realize that it is slightly anachronistic to refer to the Celts of what is now France of 2500 years ago as Gauls, but I was trying to understand what Sile meant by calling those Greek and Etruscan objects Gallic and not Celtic. I guess some mysteries aren't meant to be solved.
    To close the subject about the use of "Celtic", "Gallic" or "La Tene", this is a Celtic tomb from the late Hallstatt period with Mediterranean objects. No Celtic art here (except perhaps the small vase and the wheel parts). As this type of objects is a marker of the Celtic tombs of the Elite, thoughrouly studied, there are no mysteries ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    More info on this tomb:

    ..............................









    4- ADN tests will be made (we know it's a male thanks to the sword).
    There have in fact been some Celtic burials found that consisted of a female skeleton with a sword, and many historical accounts refer to Celtic women warriors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    There have in fact been some Celtic burials found that consisted of a female skeleton with a sword, and many historical accounts refer to Celtic women warriors.
    There should have been at least some, perhaps even reaching 1% of the tombs with swords, but I haven't found any example (except one from the Przeworsk culture). So can you provide examples?

    As far as texts are concerned, I don't remember so many texts with women fighting with swords, here alsoperhaps reaching 0,1% of the texts mentioning fighting men(I know a few texts indicating women fighting, but I don't remember that these texts were indicating they were fighting with swords)? Can you also provide examples?

    However, coming back to the Celtic tomb of Lavau, the only reason why all the articles say it is the tomb of a prince is the presence of a sword, which indicates it's very probably a man.
    I was attending a conference by Stéphane Verger about this Celtic tomb last week, and when he said that the DNA tests had not been yet done, somebody asked: "So how do we know it's not a princess?", he answered; "thanks to the sword".
    I'm sure he is familiar enough with the Celtic culture and archaeology to be almost certain he is right...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    There should have been at least some, perhaps even reaching 1% of the tombs with swords, but I haven't found any example (except one from the Przeworsk culture). So can you provide examples?

    As far as texts are concerned, I don't remember so many texts with women fighting with swords, here alsoperhaps reaching 0,1% of the texts mentioning fighting men(I know a few texts indicating women fighting, but I don't remember that these texts were indicating they were fighting with swords)? Can you also provide examples?

    However, coming back to the Celtic tomb of Lavau, the only reason why all the articles say it is the tomb of a prince is the presence of a sword, which indicates it's very probably a man.
    I was attending a conference by Stéphane Verger about this Celtic tomb last week, and when he said that the DNA tests had not been yet done, somebody asked: "So how do we know it's not a princess?", he answered; "thanks to the sword".
    I'm sure he is familiar enough with the Celtic culture and archaeology to be almost certain he is right...
    I don't have time to educate someone who seems to lack a basic knowledge of Celtic culture, but here's a website that will get you started on the role of women in Celtic culture, including the role of Celtic women rulers and warriors, both historical figures such as Boudicca and Cartimandua, and mythological figures such as Medb and Scatlach.

    www.celtlearn.org/pdfs/women.pdf

    Many Roman writers referred to women warriors using shields. In describing a battle between Romans and Celts in 102 BC, Plutarch talked about Celtic women charging with swords and axes. While this current grave find is most likely male, one can't just assume that.

    I looked up your Stephane Verger and he seems to specialize in Greek and Anatolian archeology, not Continental Celtic. But this has gone too far off topic. This latest find is interesting because it relates to a pivotal period in Celtic prehistory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    More info on this tomb:

    1- First, we must use the word "Celtic" and not "Gaulish". At the beginning of the Vth century, the word Gaulish is not used. We are at the end of the Hallstatt period, and the the Prince buried here is clearly related to the Hallstattian area which is Celtic and not Gaulish.
    this is wrong, the Romans referred to the area in question as Gallia ...................Gallic ............Gaulish...............no Celtica is seen in texts for the period

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I don't have time to educate someone who seems to lack a basic knowledge of Celtic culture, but here's a website that will get you started on the role of women in Celtic culture, including the role of Celtic women rulers and warriors, both historical figures such as Boudicca and Cartimandua, and mythological figures such as Medb and Scatlach.
    I know these texts. They should represent perhaps 1% of the texts involving men as warriors.
    And what about feminine tombs with swords? I'm still interested in your examples, as there should be at least one, but my knowledge is not as good as yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I looked up your Stephane Verger and he seems to specialize in Greek and Anatolian archeology, not Continental Celtic. But this has gone too far off topic. This latest find is interesting because it relates to a pivotal period in Celtic prehistory.
    Look at this link, and you will change your mind. Stéphane Verger is one of the best European specialists of the Hallstatt culture, and I've been studying with him for two years, after having studied the Celtic culture for 20 years by myself.

    https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j...U1EEMZVEyvt_Yw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    this is wrong, the Romans referred to the area in question as Gallia ...................Gallic ............Gaulish...............no Celtica is seen in texts for the period
    Not in the Vth century. And you should remember that in the Vth century, the Greek authors used the word "Keltoi"(we don't have any texts from the Romans mentioning Gaulish, or Gallia before the IIIrd century BC).
    The Hallstatt culture, or the Hallstattian tombs, are never refered as Gaulish, but as Celtic. As said Aberdeen, it's completely anachronisticto use gaulish for that period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    Not in the Vth century. And you should remember that in the Vth century, the Greek authors used the word "Keltoi"(we don't have any texts from the Romans mentioning Gaulish, or Gallia before the IIIrd century BC).
    The Hallstatt culture, or the Hallstattian tombs, are never refered as Gaulish, but as Celtic. As said Aberdeen, it's completely anachronisticto use gaulish for that period.
    La tene was referred to as Gallic and Hallstatt was referred to as celtic, because Hallstatt sits in ancient illyrian homeland and Illyrians are not gallic

    referring everything as celtic is not exacting and is going backwards to the eighties in terms of origins of people........I will not be a part of this .........something you seem to head to

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