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Thread: Italic peoples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I found this interesting map of settlements in Italy, during 350 BC.

    Urbanism in Ancient Peninsular Italy: developing a methodology for a database analysis of higher order settlements (350 BCE to 300 CE)

    http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/index.html
    Well yeah this map is understandable. The Celts where more north even the admixture shows this nowadays. What i find interesting is that so many different groups where close from each other and then the romans took over!
    It's a nice easy map

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    Italic peoples

    Quote Originally Posted by AdeoF View Post
    Well yeah this map is understandable. The Celts where more north even the admixture shows this nowadays. What i find interesting is that so many different groups where close from each other and then the romans took over!
    It's a nice easy map
    Looking at the Map is understandable that a viewer might get the wrong impression. In Reality by that time most tribes were not that different.
    Here is an elementary grade generalize quick Info:
    Short facts about Italic tribes
    “....In the V century, vast majority of tribes were Italics, while Sabine tribes had a special significance. Those were tribes: Umbri, Osci and Latins. At the same time, in the far north and southeast stayed Illyrian people, whose origin was from the Balkans and also they had some other origins like Venetians, Iapyges, etc. …)...”
    https://www.shorthistory.org/ancient...italic-tribes/
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdeoF View Post
    Well yeah this map is understandable. The Celts where more north even the admixture shows this nowadays. What i find interesting is that so many different groups where close from each other and then the romans took over!
    It's a nice easy map
    Venetic and raetic people never took celtic language but did take some customs like dress and tattooing.........but the illyrians from Austria ( halstatt and Noricum ) did accept fully celtic traits, dress, tattooing ,burial styles from basically the start of the iron-age and where fully celtinized by the time of the roman invasion of the area around 15 BC
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Slightly off topic, but how much is known about the Bruttians? Were they an Italic tribe or did they perhaps evolve out of the Oenetrians? Were they primarily a G2a-centered group or R1b-affiliated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Looking at the Map is understandable that a viewer might get the wrong impression. In Reality by that time most tribes were not that different.
    Here is an elementary grade generalize quick Info:
    Short facts about Italic tribes
    “....In the V century, vast majority of tribes were Italics, while Sabine tribes had a special significance. Those were tribes: Umbri, Osci and Latins. At the same time, in the far north and southeast stayed Illyrian people, whose origin was from the Balkans and also they had some other origins like Venetians, Iapyges, etc. …)...”
    Great website which explains the tribes of Italy because they where in one area but due to over population they had to move out a mix in to other tribes, that can explain even the different haplogroups in Italy. But most of them are IE right?? i know the Etruscans was not

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Venetic and raetic people never took celtic language but did take some customs like dress and tattooing.........but the illyrians from Austria ( halstatt and Noricum ) did accept fully celtic traits, dress, tattooing ,burial styles from basically the start of the iron-age and where fully celtinized by the time of the roman invasion of the area around 15 BC
    Yep that makes sense since the Venetic area did have a Celtic background but there is not much Celtic words in the Venetian language. Hmm what you said reminded of me of a place starting with the letter G....

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    Italic peoples

    @Adeof Most of them are IE.
    About the Etruscan origins, I don’t know for sure.
    Others hopefully can Revise your Statement of the Etruscans not been IE with a certain level of confidence.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's one after Roman colonization. But unfortunately, this is the biggest resolution I could find:




    http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/...bital_mc_2015/
    https://i.imgur.com/vWdehu2.jpg

    http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/1.html#figure1

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    Thanks LATGAL for this Good Quality Map.

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    You can see where the swamps were around what is now the northeastern Po Valley: no settlements.

    Not all that many in Liguria or Toscana either. The major concentration was Lazio and Campania and east from there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Pax,
    In this part of the link there's some language about the "ethnic" assignment being the immediate pre-Roman one.

    http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/4-3.html

    I've found the complete list of all settlements. Settlements are divided into "certain", "uncertain" and "likely". For a decidedly high number of settlements there are more names of populations ("first attributed people", "second attributed people" ...). Some attributions are questionable. The presence of many gaps in ancient sources obviously does not help much. Very complex work, because of its complexity, the map is likely to be too simplifying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You can see where the swamps were around what is now the northeastern Po Valley: no settlements.

    Not all that many in Liguria or Toscana either. The major concentration was Lazio and Campania and east from there.
    In Lazio, Campania, Abruzzo and Puglia there is also the highest number of "centres without known Roman legal status".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I've found the complete list of all settlements. Settlements are divided into "certain", "uncertain" and "likely". For a decidedly high number of settlements there are more names of populations ("first attributed people", "second attributed people" ...). Some attributions are questionable. The presence of many gaps in ancient sources obviously does not help much. Very complex work, because of its complexity, the map is likely to be too simplifying.




    In Lazio, Campania, Abruzzo and Puglia there is also the highest number of "centres without known Roman legal status".
    Could you post the link? I'd like to take a look.

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    This will probably be the next book I buy. Steep price, but I think it's worth it.

    The Italic People of Ancient Apulia: New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs


    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...E0A43780DEF9A9

    https://www.amazon.com/Italic-People...ancient+puglia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This will probably be the next book I buy. Steep price, but I think it's worth it.

    The Italic People of Ancient Apulia: New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs


    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...E0A43780DEF9A9

    https://www.amazon.com/Italic-People...ancient+puglia
    It is very expensive, $122. Hope is worth it. :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This will probably be the next book I buy. Steep price, but I think it's worth it.

    The Italic People of Ancient Apulia: New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs


    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...E0A43780DEF9A9

    https://www.amazon.com/Italic-People...ancient+puglia
    I found this:

    http://classics.uc.edu/apulia/index.html

    You can see all of the figures from the book for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I found this:

    http://classics.uc.edu/apulia/index.html

    You can see all of the figures from the book for free.
    Thank you for sharing the Link.
    This new found interest on the ancient Apulians is welcome news, especially after this population has been somewhat Neglected by the Academic Communities.

    Edit————-

    I just bought the hard cover from Amazon too. :)

    The Italic People of Ancient Apulia
    New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs

    Last edited by Salento; 05-05-18 at 15:47.

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Italic peoples

    The Italic People of Ancient Apulia
    Introduction
    “... Much has been written about the Greek colonists in Magna Graecia, but there is almost nothing in English about the Iapygians, the Messapians, or the Peucetians, the Italic (non-Greek) people who inhabited Apulia, the vast region of southern Italy that stretches from the tip of the heel up along the Adriatic to the bulge of the Gargano and inland to the Bradano river.
    Ancient authors were aware of the often fraught interactions between Italic peoples and Greek colonists.
    Herodotus (7.170) could write that the greatest slaughter Greeks ever experienced was when the combined forces of Greeks from Taras and Rhegium were defeated by the Iapygians of Messapia in 473 B.C.E.1 Thucydides (7.33.4) could write of an alliance between Athens and Artas, a chieftain of the Messapians in 413 B.C.E.
    Pausanias, in his Description of Greece (10.10.6 and 10.13.10), tells of two fifth century B.C.E. monuments at Delphi set up by the Tarentines to celebrate victories, one over the Messapians, the other over Opis, king of the Iapygians, who was an ally of the Peucetians.
    The Italic people of Apulia, however, left no writings of their own and thus they have essentially vanished from history. Our knowledge of them today depends largely on evidence from archaeology, much of which has come to light during the past half century. ...”

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    Every May 1st, the town of Cocullo in Abruzzo carries out a slithery ritual: the Festa dei Serpari or Serpent Festival, which sees locals parade the streets with scores of specially caught snakes.

    Handled by specialist handlers called serpari, the snakes are draped around the statue of San Domenico di Sora, the patron saint of Cocullo and protecter against tooth ache – and, handily enough, snake bites.

    But the festival is thought to date back further, to before the time of Christianity. Historians believe that the Marsi people who lived in central Italy in ancient times used to worship a serpent goddess, Angitia, who possessed magical powers to control snakes and protect from poison or sickness.

    San Domenico, an Umbrian abbot who lived in Cocullo for around seven years around the end of the 10th century, became associated with the rite when he left the town one of his teeth, which is kept as a holy relic to this day in the local church.

    Ever since, the faithful have believed in the saint's powers to protect teeth and heal bites. On the morning of the festival, his devotees pull the church's bell rope with their teeth to seek his blessing for their dental health.

    The serpari begin preparing for the festival more than a month earlier, catching wild snakes as the winter snow melts and animals begin to venture out. Four types are the most commonly caught: four-lined, Aesculapian, grass and green whip snakes, all of them non-venomous.

    The snakes were traditionally kept in clay pots and fattened up on a diet of boiled eggs and mice while they awaited the ritual.

    Their handlers bring them to the central square on the day of the festival – traditionally the first Thursday of May, but nowadays every May 1st public holiday – and proudly display them to the public.

    Then, at midday, the procession begins: four people carry the statue of San Domenico from the church and the serpari place their snakes on it.

    After a procession through the narrow streets, the serpari retrieve their snakes and release them back into the wild – until next year.

    https://www.thelocal.it/20180502/pic...stival-cocullo
    The people of Cocullo, in Abruzzo still emulate the traditions of their Marsic ancestors.




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    Witches of Benevento

    “... The history or legend of the witches of Benevento is folklore dating from at least the 13th century. Its dissemination is one reason for the fame of this Samnite city. The popular belief that Benevento would be the Italian witches' gathering place has abundant implications, blurring the border between reality and imagination. Various writers, musicians, and artists have drawn inspiration from or referred to it.

    - Birth of the legend -
    Many hypotheses on the birth of the witches' legend exist. It has probably been the synergy of several elements that gave Benevento lasting fame as the "City of Witches."

    - The cult of Isis -
    For a brief period during Roman times, the cult of Isis, Egyptian goddess of the moon, proliferated in Benevento; also, the emperor Domitian had a temple erected in her honor.

    Within this cult Isis was part of a sort of Trimurti: she became identified with Hecate, goddess of the underworld, and Diana, goddess of the hunt. These deities were also connected with magic.

    The cult of Isis probably stands on the basis of some elements of paganism that survived in succeeding centuries: the characteristics of some witches can be connected with those of Hecate, and the same term used for witches in Benevento, janara, arguably could be derived from the name of Diana. ...”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches_of_Benevento

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Witches of Benevento

    “... The history or legend of the witches of Benevento is folklore dating from at least the 13th century. Its dissemination is one reason for the fame of this Samnite city. The popular belief that Benevento would be the Italian witches' gathering place has abundant implications, blurring the border between reality and imagination. Various writers, musicians, and artists have drawn inspiration from or referred to it.

    - Birth of the legend -
    Many hypotheses on the birth of the witches' legend exist. It has probably been the synergy of several elements that gave Benevento lasting fame as the "City of Witches."

    - The cult of Isis -
    For a brief period during Roman times, the cult of Isis, Egyptian goddess of the moon, proliferated in Benevento; also, the emperor Domitian had a temple erected in her honor.

    Within this cult Isis was part of a sort of Trimurti: she became identified with Hecate, goddess of the underworld, and Diana, goddess of the hunt. These deities were also connected with magic.

    The cult of Isis probably stands on the basis of some elements of paganism that survived in succeeding centuries: the characteristics of some witches can be connected with those of Hecate, and the same term used for witches in Benevento, janara, arguably could be derived from the name of Diana. ...”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches_of_Benevento
    My husband's maternal grandmother was from near Benevento

    She also practiced what I guess you could call white witchcraft: removing the malocchio, getting people out of the house by putting brooms behind the door, and on and on.
    However, I don't really see a big difference between that and some of the practices even in my own area:

    http://www.lunigiana.net/magia/magia1.htm

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storie...a_in_Lunigiana

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    Italic peoples

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My husband's maternal grandmother was from near Benevento
    Vitulano, Gioia Sannitica.
    Wondering if this small Towns means anything to Him, or you.







    Last edited by Salento; 06-05-18 at 20:15.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Vitulano, Gioia Sannitica.
    Wondering if this small Towns means anything to Him, or you.







    No, nothing. All I can see from the map is that his Campanian ancestors come from a village further south, and that this town is just about due west of Circello, near which the exiled Liguri were supposedly settled. Fwiw, she was blonde and blue eyed, and I thought it might stem from her being descended in part from them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circello

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    Italic peoples

    Today is May 8, Traditionally in Italy is La Festa della Mamma. I know that this year is the 13, in Italy too (maybe she didn’t get the “memo”). Call your Mother before she calls you.
    Good Luck!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Thank you for sharing the Link.
    This new found interest on the ancient Apulians is welcome news, especially after this population has been somewhat Neglected by the Academic Communities.

    Edit————-

    I just bought the hard cover from Amazon too. :)

    The Italic People of Ancient Apulia
    New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs

    No problem, I might get it myself sometime.

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    Italic peoples

    —- Redundant —-

    Caligula - Mary Beard

    Last edited by Salento; 14-05-18 at 16:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    “Can you hear me now?”

    Some of his Relatives are from the Province of Benevento. (believe me :) )
    You're going to have to stop being so cryptic and terse in your comments to me. I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

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