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Thread: Italic peoples

  1. #126
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    Was the influx of Iranian-like CHG (caucasian hunter gatherer) across Anatolia into Greece & Southern Italy during the EBA (early bronze age) already admixed with Yamnaya or was it somehow more "pristine" at this stage?

    I assume that the CHG would have mixed with whatever else was in Anatolia & Greece en route to Italy?

    Also, isn't Iran Neo/CHG thought to be a component of Yamnaya, along with EHG & Ancient North Eurasian?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just started reading this, Salento.

    Imo, they're incorrect about some of the details. Perhaps it hasn't been updated recently?

    For example, they're incorrect about the relative percentages of Neolithic ancestry in Italy depending on the region.

    EEF is actually highest in Northern Italy, then Tuscany, then Central Italy, and then the South. It's because the "Iran Neo/CHG" is highest in the south and that replaced EEF somewhat, and also because of some additional more recent ancestry in places like Sicily, for instance.

    As for Sardinia, the latest paper indicates that it wasn't as isolated as used to be believed. The population in the remote mountain plateau from which many of the samples chosen by Cavalli-Sforza originated is a case apart, and, by the way, whether the I2a there came from the Mesolithic inhabitants or a group arriving later in the Neolithic is very much open to question.

    Likewise, while it's true that for a long time studies used only the sample from Bergamo for various analyses, researchers now have access to more Northern Italian samples.

    Generally speaking, a lot of what they're saying about haplogroups is speculation not yet verified by ancient dna, and I don't find their labels helpful. Calling U-152 Celto-Germanic is anachronistic, for one thing, and certain clades of E1b1b found in Italy definitely arrived after the Neolithic. It's also not helpful relying on old maps that don't show sub-lineages. In the case of E1b1b it's impossible to analyze the arrival of various lineages in Italy without knowing that.

    I have the same sort of problems with the autosomal analysis. There aren't "masses" of "Germanic" ancestry anywhere in Sicily. I don't know where that comes from, although that's just one example. In addition, we've come a long way from the Dodecad analyses. By this point, we, in addition to Dienekes, know that those clusters are themselves admixtures, and not the most informative way of analyzing autosomal ancestry. Some of the verbiage also has that old theapricity, forumbiodiversity feeling, filtered through, I would bet, the prism of some of the Northern Italian members who frequented those forums.

    It's just wrong in a lot of the particulars, and very outdated, imo.

    Sorry, Salento, nothing personal, but that's my opinion.

    FWIW, I think the pigmentation map is fine for real "locals"; it's not an accurate description of what you'd see walking around the street anywhere north of Rome. Too bad also that the writer of the article doesn't know the parameters of Emilia versus Romagna, or the location of the Po. If he knew the latter he'd know that the "fairest" areas of Emilia are south of the Po, and the lightest area in that whole region is in the northwestern part of Toscana, just south of the border with Emilia.
    Most Yamnaya genomes studied to date exhibit admixedEHG & CHG ancestry with each in robust proportions, oftenwith CHG ancestry higher than 50% (Wang et al. 2018: Figure2c).

    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard
    PCA (Fig. 2B ) indicates that all the Anatolian genome sequences from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) and Late Bronze Age (~1600 BCE) cluster with a previously sequenced Copper Age (~3900 to 3700 BCE) individual from Northwestern Anatolia and lie between Anatolian Neolithic (Anatolia_N) samples and CHG samples but not between Anatolia_N and EHG samples. A test of the form D(CHG, Mbuti; Anatolia_EBA, Anatolia_N) shows that these individuals share more alleles with CHG than Neolithic Anatolians do (Z = 3.95), and we are not able to reject a two-population qpAdm model in which these groups derive ~60% of their ancestry from Anatolian farmers and ~40% from CHG-related ancestry (P = 0.5). This signal is not driven by Neolithic Iranian ancestry, because the result of a similar test of the form D(Iran_N, Mbuti; Anatolia_EBA, Anatolia_N) does not deviate from zero (Z = 1.02).Taken together with recent findings of CHG ancestry on Crete (58), our results support a widespread CHG-related gene flow, not only into Central Anatolia but also into the areas surrounding the Black Sea and Crete. The latter are not believed to have been influenced by steppe-related migrations and may thus correspond to a shared archaeological horizon of trade and innovation in metallurgy (59).

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...b-figures-data
    Here's something interesting I noticed, Yamnaya is 10% more CHG than even Anatolian Bronze-Age on average. Perhaps that's why the Raveane et al paper suggests that it may be underestimated in Modern European populations.

    I believe it was only 40% by previous estimates for Yamnaya, in Haak et al 2015.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's something interesting I noticed, Yamnaya is 10% more CHG than even Anatolian Bronze-Age on average. Perhaps that's why the Raveane et al paper suggests that it may be underestimated in Modern European populations.

    I believe it was only 40% by previous estimates for Yamnaya, in Haak et al 2015.
    Hush! Some prominent "bloggers" and "posters" would prefer to bury that. :)

    The CHG percentages vary depending on the location on the steppe and the time period, but yes, from my recollection, most of Yamnaya has 40% or more.


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  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Hush! Some prominent "bloggers" and "posters" would prefer to bury that. :)

    The CHG percentages vary depending on the location on the steppe and the time period, but yes, from my recollection, most of Yamnaya has 40% or more.
    Ultimately, math is their true detractor. :)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    Was the influx of Iranian-like CHG (caucasian hunter gatherer) across Anatolia into Greece & Southern Italy during the EBA (early bronze age) already admixed with Yamnaya or was it somehow more "pristine" at this stage?

    I assume that the CHG would have mixed with whatever else was in Anatolia & Greece en route to Italy?

    Also, isn't Iran Neo/CHG thought to be a component of Yamnaya, along with EHG & Ancient North Eurasian?
    If David Anthony is to be believed, and we know he has worked with the Reich Lab in the past, the first movement onto the steppe from the south of the Caucasus was of CHG as defined perhaps as Kotias like, and they were still hunter/fishers. They carried no Anatolian Neo. I'm not so sure that it was necessarily "CHG" as in the 10,000 year old HG population. We may not have a sample for the precise group which brought this "Iranian like" admixture to the steppe, but I do agree it probably arrived very early on, because some of the researchers even model EHG as having a bit of CHG, and there's that J up around Karelia.

    Later, Anthony is of the opinion that cattle and sheep flowed north. Perhaps the CHG or whatever admixing group from the south it was had maintained contact with the groups south of the Caucasus?

    From pretty early on there was extensive admixture in the Near East of Levant Neo, Anatolian Neo and Iran Neo. Some have even found some admixture in very early times, despite that paper saying they were three very disparate populations. Certainly, if by Iran Neo people mean the sample in the very south of Iran, close to Mesopotamia, it makes sense it would have some other admixtures perhaps even a bit from India.

    Still, Iran Neo and CHG are very similar. Given that fact, and given that both might very well have arrived further west admixed with Anatolian Neo, and would have met EEF people who were mostly Anatolian Neo, I'm a little skeptical that the researchers have the strands totally separated and dated as to arrival time. So, for example, I'm a bit skeptical that Raveane et al have really found a distinct "Iranian Neo" signal in southern Italy.

    As for the nature of the "Caucasus" like admixture which arrived in Greece, as well as the steppe admixture, I think it's best to go to Lazaridis' paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans.

    All in all I think it's clear why the researchers talk about "CHG/Iranian like" admixture on the steppe, in the Near East, and in Europe. What is clear is that it, whatever "it" is, and whatever its variations, is a Near Eastern centered "component", as WHG is a European centered component, whether it offends Daviski's white nationalist sentiments or not.

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    I guess this makes Norwegians the most CHG/Iran-Neo, in Northern Europe. Since they are the most Yamnaya, according to Haak et al 2015.

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