Yamna_K6

And also great that in the Comment section people have realized that the Steppe population was replaced by "Polish"(Slavic) like people.

Goes in accordence with my theory that the original Pontic populations were almost completely replaced by the Slavic expansion(after beeing replaced by the Turkic earlier).

This is why we nowadays have this gab between, Eastern Europe, the Urals and North Caucasus.

Yeah, that does appear to be the case. Central Asians look like a mix of Yamna and Siberians, Ural people look like a mix of Yamna, Siberians, and Poles. Obviously Yamna was there before the other two.
 
Seems to me there is obviously a flaw in the three way model: EEF, WHG, ANE.

1) There's at least two sets of farmers, a more maritime Levant set and another more overland set and the "near eastern" component may be a composite of the two rather than a single component.

2) There seems to be multiple sources of ANE.

So whether his alternative is ultimately right or wrong Davidski's tinkering with the model is likely to produce something useful.
 
So whether his alternative is ultimately right or wrong Davidski's tinkering with the model is likely to produce something useful.

sure can, toilet paper is useful too
 
Just took a closer look at the scores for the ancient samples. While Oetzi is virtually 100% "Pre-Yamnaya", Stuttgart is only 75% "Pre-Yamnaya"? If she isn't "Pre-Yamnaya" then what is she? All those EEF samples are by definition "Pre-Yamnaya"! Then I thought that perhaps this cluster is supposed to represent Middle Neolithic people just prior to the arrival of the Yamnaya people, but only Oetzi is 100% Pre-Yamnaya, while the other MN sample suddenly has additional "Middle Eastern".

The whole thing makes so little sense that I'm done giving this "experiment" head room. If someone wants to know the best estimate so far for Yamnaya Indo-European ancestry in modern Europeans, the figures are given in Haak et al, although I think it will change as more ancient samples become available. You're not going to find the numbers in this run.

To be honest, the whole discussion of this topic is becoming a bit nausea inducing, and I say this as someone who has been following it as an intellectual puzzle for years. At the end of the day, what does it matter who has what percent of Yamnaya ancestry? What does any of this have to do with real life or the real issues confronting all of us?

When a pre Yamna Stuttgart turns out 25% Yamna and the general data is not consistent with the actual study than you know something is wrong here.
As I said K6 is far too low to even be able to differentiate between farmer and H&G let alone the various farmer and H&G types. K6 only differentiates between "European, Near Eastern, South Asian, Amerindian, East Asian and African." And this is also based on the reference populations you use for it. I assume this might be the reason why some of the EEF genes turn out as Yamna because it can't differentiate between EEF and "West Asian" and probably can't differentiate between pre and post Yamna WHG like ancestry.

This comes not suprisingly accommodating for Northeast Europeans who lack Gedrosia.
For example take a look at the Balochi with highest Gedrosia scores. They appear to have only 5%!! Yamna ancestry while anyone surrounding them has suddenly 40%. It almost seems like something "contra West Asian/Gedrosia" is going on in this calculator. And suddenly Northeast Europeans have the top Yamna scores instead of Mordovians, Norwegians, Russians, Lezgians (only Udmurts top them), while strictly taken we could argue that Northeast Europeans have "least" Yamna ancestry because they lack Gedrosia/West Asian which is crucial component among Yamna. This might be the reason why he needed to eradicate this component by using lower Ks

In order to make Northeast Europeans as "Yamna" like as possible you need to use lower Ks where the components are not specified enough. Even the Haak paper uses at least K16
page 22 => http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

So how comes someone could thing he can get correct results from a K6 run? Look it can happen that sometimes results get inconsistent I understand that, but I can't believe this is coincidence if it is always Northeast Europeans profiting from this on the cost of Western Asians.

I am no expert on this field so I can't tell exactly what is wrong, but comparing it with Haak paper, there is definitely something wrong.
 
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If there are more than three critical components then any model using just the three components is going to be flawed.

If the results are that significantly different from the actual Haak paper, than this calculator is of not much use.
 
I am honest. The Yamna component from this run is identical to the North Euro component of Dodecad k12b.

I bet that Loschbour would score 80% Yamna on this run.

Which leads to a simple conclusion: peer reviewed studies are still much superior to amateur genome bloggers.
 
I think he sent me my results:
Yamnaya_related 0.148505
WHG_extra 0.007126
ENA 0.003979
Middle_Eastern 0.415615
Pre-Yamnaya 0.411474
Sub-Saharan 0.0133

Apparently Pre-Yamnaya is supposed to be ENF with some Mesolithic admixture, and the Middle east is how it was when ENF didn't get to Europe yet. Yamnaya component apparently reaches the highest frequency among the Udmurt of northern Russia.
 
If Corded Ware, northern Yamnaya and Slavic are all R1a Russian hunter gatherer mixed with some source for an early Middle Eastern farmer component but that Middle Eastern component got mixed in with the R1a from different sources (Neolithic European farmer, Caucasian and Cucutei-Trypellian), it might be difficult to tell one from the other in modern populations, I think. And we don't yet know how different R1a from the Yamnaya horizon looks autosomally from R1b from the Yamnaya horizon. I think that leaves lots of room for confusing results that might fit some people's agendas, even without deliberate manipulation of data.
 
If Corded Ware, northern Yamnaya and Slavic are all R1a Russian hunter gatherer mixed with some source for an early Middle Eastern farmer component but that Middle Eastern component got mixed in with the R1a from different sources (Neolithic European farmer, Caucasian and Cucutei-Trypellian), it might be difficult to tell one from the other in modern populations, I think. And we don't yet know how different R1a from the Yamnaya horizon looks autosomally from R1b from the Yamnaya horizon. I think that leaves lots of room for confusing results that might fit some people's agendas, even without deliberate manipulation of data.

Good point, studies, especially those that aren't peer reviewed, should never be taken as gospel.
 
Another thing, didn't he give the word out and make everyone believe that Yamna is 40-45% WHG, 30-35% ANE and 25% ENF, while at the same time his own calculator spit out 35-40/30-35/25/5 (ANE/WHG/ENF/SE)?
In K8 North Indians appear with less than 3% WHG, suddenly in this K6 calculator they show up with extra WHG (additional to that what might have come from Yamna).

Is it a coincidence that Patterson stated that the fact that some populations speaking Indo-European languages have virtually no WHG raises some questions as to whether all the Indo-European languages spread from the Pontic-Caspian steppe? :) Perhaps a pre-emptive strike?

Just so it's clear, I'm still an agnostic about all of this.
 
Fire-Haired:You're saying no one should use Ks?

I said no such thing. You know better than that, Fire-Haired. I meant, as I'm sure you understand, that depending on the nature of each run, you get clarity with X number of "K", and you can tell the optimum "K" level by a statistical analysis of the data.

Pre-Yamna, Yamna, etc. all the components in this test are simply components just like "West-Med" in K15. Davidski gave them those names because they best represent Yamna, pre-Yamna, etc. ancestry. When he added ancient genomes in his database they created components modern ones couldn't, because they better represent the ancestors of modern people than other modern people.

No one is(or at least should) taking this as a competition to see who's the most Yamna-descended. That was never the point. Yamna-like people passed on a lot of genes so when researching modern origins they're very much in subject.

No, they don't best represent these components, because the data is internally inconsistent.

As to your latter statement, I will pay you the compliment of believing you are just still naive, and have also not been reading blog posts by the "usual suspects" for the last ten years. Everything wasn't always so PC, you know. It's true that many of those blogs either crashed or have been deliberately "cleansed", but a lot of people took an awful lot of screenshots. Someday they'll surface and the ****will hit the fan, and it won't just be about wanting certain populations to have a large Yamnaya Indo-European component. When that happens, academics and professional people with a reputation to lose are going to pay a price for their associations if they can be linked to some of these anonymous "internet names".

Greying Wanderer: Seems to me there is obviously a flaw in the three way model: EEF, WHG, ANE.

1) There's at least two sets of farmers, a more maritime Levant set and another more overland set and the "near eastern" component may be a composite of the two rather than a single component.

There is indeed something wrong with the EEF, WHG, ANE model, which is why it's clear the Reich Lab has quietly dropped it. The Mal'ta sample is either too old, or too poor quality, or just not very informative. It's clear, for example, the EHG can't really be modeled as an actual mixture of WHG and ANE according to formal stats.

As to point number one, all of the EEF are very homogenous, which is another clue that this K6 is not correct or helpful. That's clear from every academic paper that has dealt with the subject. Theirs was a maritime expansion originating somewhere around northern Syria/southeast Anatolia some of whose people followed the littoral of the northern Mediterranean, and some of whom went inland after reaching Greece. That information is nicely backed up by the findings of Paschou et al.

The "Near Eastern" component, in so far as I can tell from the data so far is probably vast majority the same element, which probably traveled north from the center of gravity to the Caucasus, Iran, Central Asia and India. I've posted numerous maps of the movement of the Neolithic to those areas. In addition, there's some sort of older "Central Asian/Sindh" element, for lack of a better description, which is a minority component.
 
Is it a coincidence that Patterson stated that the fact that some populations speaking Indo-European languages have virtually no WHG raises some questions as to whether all the Indo-European languages spread from the Pontic-Caspian steppe? Perhaps a pre-emptive strike? :)

Just so it's clear, I'm still an agnostic about all of this.

Therefore it is hard for me to believe Yamna is some kind of PIE Urheimat. PIEs seem more like an ethno_cultural complex.
 
I am honest. The Yamna component from this run is identical to the North Euro component of Dodecad k12b.

I bet that Loschbour would score 80% Yamna on this run.

Which leads to a simple conclusion: peer reviewed studies are still much superior to amateur genome bloggers.

Now that you say it. Balochi have most Gedrosia and least North European compared to their neighbors in east. And they score only 5% Yamna while all the eastern neighbors with higher North European component score suddenly 25-40%. It seems like in this calculator "North European"(mostly WHG) is crucial.

That gets also obvious if you take a look at the Yamna scores in West Asia. It seems to go hand in hand with the North Euro component. West Asian have the least North Euro and therefore least Yamna, Europeans the most North Euro and therefore Yamna and Central Asians something in between.
So Yamna = pred Northeast Euro??

Nevermind just a thought.

Whatever it is, there are obvious flaws.
 
There is indeed something wrong with the EEF, WHG, ANE model, which is why it's clear the Reich Lab has quietly dropped it. The Mal'ta sample is either too old, or too poor quality, or just not very informative. It's clear, for example, the EHG can't really be modeled as an actual mixture of WHG and ANE according to formal stats.

As to point number one, all of the EEF are very homogenous, which is another clue that this K6 is not correct or helpful. That's clear from every academic paper that has dealt with the subject. Theirs was a maritime expansion originating somewhere around northern Syria/southeast Anatolia some of whose people followed the littoral of the northern Mediterranean, and some of whom went inland after reaching Greece. That information is nicely backed up by the findings of Paschou et al.

The "Near Eastern" component, in so far as I can tell from the data so far is probably vast majority the same element, which probably traveled north from the center of gravity to the Caucasus, Iran, Central Asia and India. I've posted numerous maps of the movement of the Neolithic to those areas. In addition, there's some sort of older "Central Asian/Sindh" element, for lack of a better description, which is a minority component.

Maybe. I think the earlier more maritime Levant expansion mostly merged with a second more overland one that originated further east but there may be a few places they didn't merge - maybe islands like Sardinia - and finding the split may be helpful like finding one of the corner pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
 
Therefore it is hard for me to believe Yamna is some kind of PIE Urheimat. PIEs seem more like an ethno_cultural complex.

For the umpteenth time, I'd like to point out that Yamnaya could have been the ethno-cultural complex that produced the Bronze Age Indo-European expansion, as indicated by the archeological evidence, even if the Proto-IE language may have developed elsewhere among one of the probably two major components that probably combined to create Yamnaya.
 
As to your latter statement, I will pay you the compliment of believing you are just still naive, and have also not been reading blog posts by the "usual suspects" for the last ten years. Everything wasn't always so PC, you know. It's true that many of those blogs either crashed or have been deliberately "cleansed", but a lot of people took an awful lot of screenshots. Someday they'll surface and the ****will hit the fan, and it won't just be about wanting certain populations to have a large Yamnaya Indo-European component. When that happens, academics and professional people with a reputation to lose are going to pay a price for their associations if they can be linked to some of these anonymous "internet names".

Indeed it seems like he doesn't know the history of some of these bloggers. Only this can explain why he doesn't see any bias in it. The blogger might have changed the tone and became more "open" to other theories. But no real live person can change his sentiments within a few years by 100%. I remember times when the suspect was claiming Scythians came straight out of the Baltics.

Of course he wouldn't throw out these kind of theories. Anyone makes mistakes so I don't really hold on the "mistakes of the past". But it made me cautious to believe anything what they say.

I am long enough around to know the background of allot of these bloggers.

In addition, there's some sort of older "Central Asian/Sindh" element, for lack of a better description, which is a minority component.

Kalash specific DNA probably. David calls it "South Eurasian".
 
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If a population X expanded from somewhere in Central Asia (for example) into Iran, India, Near East and Europe and merged with whoever was there already they'd create a variety of X + something else populations (possibly with the y dna coming mostly from the X population).

If the same X population moved onto but were partially repulsed from the steppe (cos horses) that might also lead to the resulting steppe population being an X + something else population also (although possibly with the y dna coming mostly from the non X population).

If so then if the steppe population later expanded out into the surrounding regions you'd have an X + something else population expanding over a variety of X + something else populations.

In which case it might be difficult to separate the components autosomally but the proportions of X to non-X y haplogroups might give a clue to the proportions.
 
I think he sent me my results:
Yamnaya_related 0.148505
WHG_extra 0.007126
ENA 0.003979
Middle_Eastern 0.415615
Pre-Yamnaya 0.411474
Sub-Saharan 0.0133

Apparently Pre-Yamnaya is supposed to be ENF with some Mesolithic admixture, and the Middle east is how it was when ENF didn't get to Europe yet. Yamnaya component apparently reaches the highest frequency among the Udmurt of northern Russia.

is he correct!

pre-yamnya + yamnya = 54.9%

and you are E-M35 haplogroup

he said there was no E in yamnya
 
Angela, you clearly don't like Davidski for some reason which is why you're biasedly against Yamna K6. Ancient genetics don't have to give people headaches because of how complicated they're. Some things in life are simple. I don't really see a reason to argue with you about this.

The Ancient genomes from haak 2015 are such good proxies of modern peoples' ancestors that components were created that nearly perfectly represent Middle Neolithic Euros, Yamna, and WHG-survival. The ancient individuals don't have to score 100% in a component for the test to be accurate.
 

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