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Thread: Fine Scale Population Structure in the British Population

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think that all this talk of the differences between the "clusters" obscures the fact that all the people of the British Isles are incredibly homogenous. Those are amazingly small Fst differences.

    That said, it's still interesting.



    I think it's important to keep this in mind whenever people are talking about migrations of conquering male elites; they can change the culture and the language, but their genetic heritage can disappear from the autosomes, if not the yDna, no matter how many wives they took. You need large numbers of men and women, a "folk migration" to make lasting change. The only exception might be if they brought diseases with them, diseases which wiped out large numbers of the indigenous inhabitants. That's why I'm always very skeptical in studies of my own country about claims that the Normans left an autosomal impact on western Sicily, or some quartering of troops around a "Lombard" castle in the south changed the genetic make-up to some large degree.
    Angela, male elites colonizations without any female are very seldom - perhaps the maritime ones (as Vikings) were roughly of this sort but NOT ALWAYS after first conquest, females could come to colonize too - scientists shew the Vikings colonizations had different ratio of ethnic males/females different origins ratio, the differences are clear when comparing Hebrides/Western Isles, Caithness, Orkney , Shetland, Iceland, Faroe - (for Ireland I don't read anything) -
    I think as you a male elite conquest leads to desequilibrium between the ratio of different Y-DNA haplos and the ratio of autosomes in a population but let's keep in mind all the way that when a male passes a 100% Y not recombining heritages to his sons (the girls are not serious, they don't keep the Y haplo of Papa !!! (LOL) he passes also a 50% set of autosomes to them AND to their daughters - so in this theorical only males conquest even if the males autosomes tend to be "washed", a, say, hand full of new males excluding autochtonous males of the mating and taking 100 autochtonous females can passe 50% of the autosomes of the new generation and if they keep the strong side in this figure the subsequent generations will roughly keep this 50% ratios - only drift/mutations can changes it in this example - so, taken in account that some "colon" females accompanied the colonizators and that the males conquerors kept some advantages upon local males, the loss of original conquerors autosomes is not always so quick we can aspect: a first brutal loss at first crossing generation, but low evolution in following generations -
    that said, all that is theory: not always all the autochtonous males were discarded of reproduction... you' re right when you write elite males can loose some part of their autosomes but we cannot be sure of the loss speed - surely you were aware of all that, but the way you wrote could give way to misunderstanding to someones
    and Sicilia is not so uniform concerning DNA at fine scale I think (even if roughly homogenous compared to other greater regions -
    buona sera -

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    en vrac

    Recall of theoriccolonization of the region - I hope I don't forget the principalones -
    before Neolithic :unknown for the most
    Neolithic : thefirst ones not well known + the Long Barrows period : Atlanticmegalithers with some elements maybe coming from far EastMerditerranea (partially « Sumerianlike » for Coon, maybeS-Caucasus people not far from Black Sea at some stage ? See dolmens in Abkhazia region NW-Caucasus about the 3000 BC? - alreadyY-R1b ? To be checked)
    Chalcolithic-Eneolithic :Bell Beakers from the Rhine mouth and maybe Westphaly
    Bronze Age : ?maybe some continental Celts ?
    Urnfields period: ?seemingly some people (Celts) seemingly from EasternFrance/Switzerland
    Iron Age ther Celts ( ?), Picts ? and Belgae / then : Romans
    450-650 :Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisons colonization
    later :Norwegian and Dane Vikings with different places of settlements
    1066 : Williamthe Bastard and « Normans » plus W-Armoric Bretons andFlemings (Preceltic-Celtic-Germanics mix)
    later : nocolonization but infiltration of Western French nobility


    the clusteringsystem is a problem to me : I suppose it searches close andpeculiar frequencies of genes among individuals leading to thepossibility to create some geographical groupings : it impliessome arbitrary statement ? Where are the true limits ? Themost precise and fine scaled the cluster is, the most exposed torecent drift it is, unrelated to ancient historical events -
    Not the samedepth (number of typical sets of genes leading to the separationfrom others clusters)?
    Theses clusters arenot compared to distributions of known pooled componants, ancient orcurrent -
    here I would haveprefered a global genetic distance table for all the regions of theIsles ti this clustering system-
    2 small branches ofa same population, sharing the same ancestors, and colonizing 2different small regions and isolated for some reason, can haveglobally the same % of genes of every ancient component butpresent a kind of « complementary » (opposed)distribution of some of these genes ; this plus subsequent driftcan create 2 well defined distinct clusters was could not beproduced by greater populations (greater mating circle) – globallythese 2 « distinct » populations shows nevertheless greatressemblance so short distance when the whole genome isconsidered – (it's the problem I evocated concerning metricsvariations among Amerindians in compartimented mountains of Peru).


    ancient regionalfacts :
    BBs more in Southernand Eastern England, a bit in Eastern Scotland, modified by other« BBs » =
    the Food Vesselpeople from Ireland, with a common element but lack of the otherselements of British BBs, these last ones picked in Preceltic oralready Celtic Germany (it is not so evident) – according tosomeones, BBs pushed back the precedent Long Barrows people wherethey take foot -
    + possibly peoplefrom East-France-Switzerland in Urnfields period, in Kent and maybeEastern Scotland : 'alpine » regions
    Belgae settled forthe most in South-East and East England, very few elsewhere but itdoesn't esclude a shift towards West fleeing the Germanics -
    Romans settled intowns or on boundaries, with them foreign legions from everywhere inthe Empire, Celts among them : surely few remnants after the450... LOOK DATES
    the Anglo-Saxons andFrisons/Jutes settled at first the eastern coastal region of todayEngland : possibility : they absorbed the Brittons/Belgaepeople (or only their females) OR they pushed back the most of themtoward West, principally Wessex (look at some S-W english dialects?S/Z-F/V phenomenon , known in celtic Cornish and some Breton dialectstoday, not without some tendancy among Germanics of West : thisphenomenon generalized by the late progression of german, doesn'tseem genuine in North nor East : Frisons, Englishmen,Scandinaviasn ignore it as seemingly all ancient germanic languages :here a study of old germanic dialects phonetics is needed, I'm notsure, only speculation for east-german history)
    Norse settlements :Ireland, Hebrides islands, Orkney/Shetland, Western Scotland shoresand Isle of Man, West Lancashire, some traces in South-Pembroke andSomerset


    Middle Ages Vikingssettlements in Wirral-W-Lancashire shew some big drift concerningY-DNA by instance : their Y-DNA is absorbed for the most now ( alesson!) - it is the problem of colonizations by small groups,humans as animals – and here we have too the question ofpre-Anglo-Saxon regional clusters : the most of the regionsconsidered as more Celtic are refuge areas with small density sincelong time ago and so more exposure to drift– so it's hard tomeasure the DNA they shared between them some centuries ago – whatdoes not push me to think it's only recent drift that explainthe today differences in these refuges – the Neolithic people camesurely in more than a wave and from diverse places even if LongBarrows people seem having had an heavy rôle – the Celts came fromdifferent places (maybe since the « British » BBs?) atdifferent times.
    And we know Celtswere for the most pushed back into refuges of Preceltic people (anold law of History)- the Bretons and Belgae living in Central Englandand East or North England before the Saxons were surely not exactlythe same ones as the today Neo-Celts of the Occident shores -
    the differencesbetween these refuge zones are maybe due not to the differencebetween Celts only but due more to the differences between Precelticstettlers. So small distances but clear restricted clusters ?
    The clusterS-Central England seems to me very too largely and uniformly spred to be « sincere » - he doesn't reflect what anthropologynor Y-Haplos shew us – it ressemble an « average » or« mean » english citizen type (completely unrelated tovariations in Y-DNA haplos) where is smelt Anglo-Saxons + Celts +some Precelts : a cities new populations ? Or genuine localtypes, but with erased differences by the clustering system appliedto big populations or not isolated small populations (famouscontinuum concept ???)
    as you know thereare some studies about the different systems to appreciatedifferences in distributions of traits in population(s) and theclustering : not so simple... THE method can give THE result ?I 'll try to learn but maths explanations with maths « ogams »or « runes » are a punition to me...


    So Angela is rightwhen she speak about global short distances between British people,even if it is true too for all the Euroasians – except that thespotting of individuals in some tables show a span from Irishmen toNorth Frenches, Normands or Bretons, to N-W Germans (so :Belgians and Dutch people) until Norwegians !
    By the way the« french » elements present in the Isles is for a partsince Middle Ages, but I think a lot is representative of more than aCeltic/Celtized people wave. I tried ti buy the paper but I had somedifficulty, I 'll try again : maybe I 'll change my thoughts ?


    A conclusion ?Perhaps a TOO FINE scale for clustering is not accurate to show realdistances between human groups and to illustrate History? Butdifferent adjustments of the magnifying glass can help to devinedifferent depths of History too so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Angela, male elites colonizations without any female are very seldom - perhaps the maritime ones (as Vikings) were roughly of this sort but NOT ALWAYS after first conquest, females could come to colonize too - scientists shew the Vikings colonizations had different ratio of ethnic males/females different origins ratio, the differences are clear when comparing Hebrides/Western Isles, Caithness, Orkney , Shetland, Iceland, Faroe - (for Ireland I don't read anything) -
    I think as you a male elite conquest leads to desequilibrium between the ratio of different Y-DNA haplos and the ratio of autosomes in a population but let's keep in mind all the way that when a male passes a 100% Y not recombining heritages to his sons (the girls are not serious, they don't keep the Y haplo of Papa !!! (LOL) he passes also a 50% set of autosomes to them AND to their daughters - so in this theorical only males conquest even if the males autosomes tend to be "washed", a, say, hand full of new males excluding autochtonous males of the mating and taking 100 autochtonous females can passe 50% of the autosomes of the new generation and if they keep the strong side in this figure the subsequent generations will roughly keep this 50% ratios - only drift/mutations can changes it in this example - so, taken in account that some "colon" females accompanied the colonizators and that the males conquerors kept some advantages upon local males, the loss of original conquerors autosomes is not always so quick we can aspect: a first brutal loss at first crossing generation, but low evolution in following generations -
    that said, all that is theory: not always all the autochtonous males were discarded of reproduction... you' re right when you write elite males can loose some part of their autosomes but we cannot be sure of the loss speed - surely you were aware of all that, but the way you wrote could give way to misunderstanding to someones
    and Sicilia is not so uniform concerning DNA at fine scale I think (even if roughly homogenous compared to other greater regions -
    buona sera -
    I don't disagree with much of what you have posted.

    My comment was in response to the following quote from the paper (which appeared in my post).
    "He said: 'It's important to emphasise that when you get that mixture it's very much a question of the ratio of the people who come in and the indigenous population."

    If, as in the scenario they were describing, which involved, to my recollection, Roman administrators, soldiers, merchants etc., these men were admixing into a population of over two million people, their yDna might remain, through chance, but the autosomal contribution could disappear. Simulations in various genetics papers indicate it could disappear in six generations.

    The supposed "Indo-European" migration into India is a perfect example of an elite male migration. There is minimal if any sign of a movement of steppe related or eastern European related mtDna into India. There is a lot of R1a of the Z93 variety. If the R1a Z93 was indeed brought from the steppe, the number of men must have been small in relation to the indigenous population, and continual marriage into that indigenous population wiped out the autosomal component, because the amount of "Northern European" even in Northwest Indians is miniscule.

    Even if there is a folk migration of sorts, the impact autosomally depends on that ratio. The Lombard invasion of Italy involved less than 100,000 people, although they came as families. However, if we try to measure their impact by yDna and we look at lineages like U-106 and I1, their impact was minimal. That's because they were migrating into a country whose population numbered in the millions. Their strongest impact is, in so far as I can tell, in the north east and center north of Italy. We have a lot of Lombard castles in my particular area, but the amount of I1 is small. I would speculate that these castles were garrisoned by men who didn't necessarily bring their own women with them. Of course, we really need autosomal analysis using ancient genomes to get a clearer picture, but what has been done so far in regard to the Lombards is underwhelming to say the least.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    It was the Norwegians, not the Danes, who settled in Orcadia. It was the Danes who settled in the English Danelaw, and I suspect that their DNA was closer to that of the Anglo-Saxons than the Norwegians prior to the medieval political union between Denmark and Norway. If you look at the map, the red dots that supposedly represent Anglo-Saxons match very closely a combination of the Anglo-Saxon heartland and the Danelaw (which did overlap to some extent). There just doesn't seem to be any separation between the two and I suppose one could assume, as the authors seem to, that the Danes just disappeared, presumably after King Canute's last descendent was replaced by an Anglo-Saxon type in 1042. But, when one considers such things as the continuing influence of Old Danish on the accents of people in modern northeastern England, it seems possible that Danish DNA was more like Anglo-Saxon DNA than Norse 1000 years ago, especially given that the Angles appear to have come in part from what is now southern Denmark.

    Have you taken a look at page 11 of the Supplement?
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re14230-s1.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    your hypothesis for Y-E1b is very possible but FRA12 ? I'm not sure I understand well the map but this "component" doesn't seem 'mediterranean' by force? could you explain in a deeper way?
    It's only that FRA12 extends more into the France/Italy/Liguria region than the rest of the components - so not much of a reason.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/---rAR5GpVQ...talSources.jpg

    (h/t dionekes)

    My thinking was
    - Romans said Wales had darker people
    - Wales has more ydna E1b
    - SFS31 and FRA12 are the two components furthest towards the mediterranean

    so not exactly watertight :)

    As FRA12 only appears in low amounts and only in Wales and SW Scotland I think that points at it being an old layer pushed back to the primary refuge zones but maybe before Atlantic Megalith?

    Thinking about it more my guess is the Iberian (or coastal Iberian for those who prefer) SFS31 seems like the most likely candidate for E1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm having some trouble deciphering the below graphic. FRA17 has blue bars, but the arrow is pointing to teal colored circles. Or am I color blind?

    Attachment 7153

    It's the teal colored circles which appear in Piemonte, Liguria and down the coast into Toscana. So is it FRA 17 which is in Italy or FRA12?

    The teal circles also appear in what looks like Provence, the coastal Loire?, Orleans? and southern Poitou?
    Is there something which ties those regions together, particularly?

    This is what they have to say about these clusters in the Supplement:
    The pattern in North Wales, North Pembrokeshire, South Pembrokeshire: "Absence of GER3 and FRA17, presence of FRA12, and relatively higher proportions of GER6 and FRA14."

    A second general pattern is shared by a number of other UK clusters(from north to south: Northumbria; Cumbria; W Yorkshire, Cent./S England; Welsh Borders; Devon; Cornwall): Significant presence of GER3, absence of FRA12, relatively higher contributions from groups FRA17 and DEN18, and relatively lower contributions from FRA14.

    As to FRA17, they have this to say:
    "presence/absence pattern (notably its absence from Wales) strongly suggests that it results from a migration or migrations later than those of the earliest migrations which contributed DNA to the modern UK population (GER6, BEK11, FRA14: internal migration has spread the DNA from these early immigrants across the UK, so that if the migrations represented gy FRA17 were earlier than or contemporaneous with these, then the same migrations should also have spread the resulting(FRA17 like)DNA through out the UK, including Wales. We also argue that the FRA17 contribution is unlikely to reflect any of the known movements in histori(i.e.since the Roman invasion of Britain)


    Their main argument for the last statement is that none of those invasions were large enough to effect such a wide spread of alleles.

    This leads me to think FRA17 is not the one in Italy. FRA14 is, according to the authors, mostly found in northwest France (although it appears in other places on the French map.) Therefore, does it seem more likely that it is FRA12 which is present in Italy?

    If that is correct, it's interesting that it is basically only present in Wales. I hesitate to ascribe it to Roman legionnaires (many of whom came from northern Italy and Gaul) as per the thread on E-V13. If they impacted the genetics of Wales, why not that of the area around Hadrian's Wall, or on the Saxon Shore? The authors maintain that the most widespread components are oldest. I'm not so sure that would always be the case. Couldn't the oldest component have been pushed into Wales by subsequent invasions?

    As to the presence in Italy there are numerous explanations, from shared Neolithic ancestry to the documented Gallic migrations in the first millennium BC into Piemonte and Liguria specifically from the west.
    Yes I think it is FRA12 extending into Italy. FRA17 is pointing at the wrong color.

    Also the more I squint the more widespread a lot of the colors are.

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    @Moesan

    The clusterS-Central England seems to me very too largely and uniformly spred to be « sincere »
    I wonder if that might relate to the hajnal line marriage system and low levels of cousin marriage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Yes I think it is FRA12 extending into Italy. FRA17 is pointing at the wrong color.

    Also the more I squint the more widespread a lot of the colors are.
    The FRA12 being the group present in northwestern Italy as well as in France, and being present in Wales but not other parts of Britain sort of supports the Hellenthal et al results finding a link between northern Italy/Tuscany and Wales, yes? However, what's the time period? What group could have fed into Wales from northwest Italy, or, conversely, what group could have fed into both areas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The FRA12 being the group present in northwestern Italy as well as in France, and being present in Wales but not other parts of Britain sort of supports the Hellenthal et al results finding a link between northern Italy/Tuscany and Wales, yes? However, what's the time period? What group could have fed into Wales from northwest Italy, or, conversely, what group could have fed into both areas?
    It is significant that FRA12 is found in Wales and in both Northern Ireland and Scotland categories and in Orkney1. We may have traces of an ancient substratum of people from prehistoric Gaul here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    It's only that FRA12 extends more into the France/Italy/Liguria region than the rest of the components - so not much of a reason.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/---rAR5GpVQ...talSources.jpg

    (h/t dionekes)

    My thinking was
    - Romans said Wales had darker people
    - Wales has more ydna E1b
    - SFS31 and FRA12 are the two components furthest towards the mediterranean

    so not exactly watertight :)

    As FRA12 only appears in low amounts and only in Wales and SïW Scotland I think that points at it being an old layer pushed back to the primary refuge zones but maybe before Atlantic Megalith?

    Thinking about it more my guess is the Iberian (or coastal Iberian for those who prefer) SFS31 seems like the most likely candidate for E1b.
    No only the Silures were said to be swarthy, not the whole Wales.

    The Iberian connection is only with Basques and Catalans and is like 1% at max.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Have you taken a look at page 11 of the Supplement?
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re14230-s1.pdf
    I guess I don't know enough about that kind of thing to interpret the map very well. I was going mainly by what Dienekes said about the paper, and the way he illustrated one of the maps from it. But mostly I'm looking at the wording of the paper. After admitting that the Jutes and some of the Angles actually came from what is now Denmark and stating "Definitively separating Saxon and Danish Viking inputs is impossible", they try to do just that, apparently by making the questionable assumption that Danish DNA of 1000 years ago more closely resembled modern Norse DNA than modern German DNA. And they greatly understate the size of the Danelaw and don't even mention that the whole of England was ruled by Danes for a few decades. In fact, there are a number of what I think are questionable assumptions they make throughout the paper in order to arrive at the conclusion that there is more old DNA in England than had been assumed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    No only the Silures were said to be swarthy, not the whole Wales.

    The Iberian connection is only with Basques and Catalans and is like 1% at max.
    Actually, Julius Caesar said that the Britons were smaller and darker, on average, than the Romans, although he also said that the Celts who ruled Britain were quite tall and strongly built, with light coloured hair (at least partly because of the use of hair dye). So Caesar seems to have distinguished the Celtic ruling class from the majority of Brits.

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    ???

    No I don't think so. I've read his whole book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Actually, Julius Caesar said that the Britons were smaller and darker, on average, than the Romans, although he also said that the Celts who ruled Britain were quite tall and strongly built, with light coloured hair (at least partly because of the use of hair dye). So Caesar seems to have distinguished the Celtic ruling class from the majority of Brits.
    I lost the Caesar 's book (translated in french) long time ago and can no more check details - I've no remembrance of Britons smaller than Romans (these ones 1m62 as mean, for I red in Coon but ?) even when speaking about the curly black haired Siluri(ans) -
    what I remember for others authors is Britons (not Belgae ones) as a whole were described as slightly higher but a bit slender than Gauls, and a bit darker for head hairs, but with as light skins - Gauls were a bit lighter haired (same remark concerning bleaching) and a bit more stocky -
    at Iron times, I red 1m70 for Gaels, and 1m67 as a mean for Gauls (no precision for British Celts, except the famous descriptions of "red haired" and high and long bodied Caledonians - surely all Britons were not pure Celts and some regional places shew different types and Caesar was not anthropologist, nor were the other Ancients -
    but perhaps, Abderdeen, have you the passage where Caesar spoke of these anatomic details concerning different Britons? ( I can have passed over there long time ago)

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    I can see three hotspots in France for FRA 17. Could the arrow be pointing at the teal blob because the teal blob is setting in the middle zone of the three FRA 17 spots?

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    Caesar

    http://www.mytimemachine.co.uk/caesar.htm

    The interior portion of Britain is inhabited by those of whom they say that it is handed down by tradition that they were born in the island itself: the maritime portion by those who had passed over from the country of the Belgae for the purpose of plunder and making war; almost all of whom are called by the names of those states from which being sprung they went thither, and having waged war, continued there and began to cultivate the lands.

    Tacitus

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/ag01010.htm

    Who were the original inhabitants of Britain, whether they were indigenous or foreign, is, as usual among barbarians, little known. Their physical characteristics are various, and from these conclusions may be drawn. The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin. The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts. Those who are nearest to the Gauls are also like them, either from the permanent influence of original descent, or, because in countries which run out so far to meet each other, climate has produced similar physical qualities. But a general survey inclines me to believe that the Gauls established themselves in an island so near to them.

    also interesting separately

    The most civilized of all these nations are they who inhabit Kent, which is entirely a maritime district, nor do they differ much from the Gallic customs. Most of the inland inhabitants do not sow corn, but live on milk and flesh, and are clad with skins.

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    @Angela, Vallicanus

    Indeed, an interesting little mystery.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    That’s cool that the (South and Central) English form such a clear homogeneous cluster – even at 24 clusters. I wouldn’t have thought that before, but I can see reasons for it now. I guess out-breeding within the bounds of a nation can contribute to such an effect. It seems like it would be easy to identify if someone belongs to that cluster. I hope 23andMe utilizes those results in their ancestral composition calculator. Some of my ancestry traces back to those Northern England clusters as well, so I hope I can someday get my ancestral breakdowns for that too.

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    9600 BC Last Ice Age ends and land is colonised by hunter-gatherers

    2500 BC Influx of settlers from east and western coastal routes

    54 BC Julius Caesar invades Britain and defeats the British tribal chief Cassivellaunus
    410 AD Collapse of Roman rule in Britain, which descends into the chaos of a failed state
    400-500 AD Large influx of Angles and Saxons
    600-700 AD Anglo-Saxon rule throughout much of Britain – Welsh kingdoms successfully resist
    865 AD Large-scale invasion by Danish Vikings
    1066 AD Norman invasion
    A brief timeline of settlements in Britain from here

    What are Your opinions. Who are the people at 2500 BC?
    Are there the R1b people?
    Are there pre-IE or this is the IE influx?
    In my opinion it is little bit too early for IE.
    Whoever there are I think it is quite probable that they are the builders of Stonehenge complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    A brief timeline of settlements in Britain from here

    What are Your opinions. Who are the people at 2500 BC?
    Are there the R1b people?
    Are there pre-IE or this is the IE influx?
    In my opinion it is little bit too early for IE.
    Whoever there are I think it is quite probable that they are the builders of Stonehenge complex.
    My own personal view is that the people who arrived in Britain from the sea about 4500 years ago were the Bell Beaker R1b folk. However, here at the Europe Forum, such a point of view is considered to be heretical by most of the people who regularly post here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    My own personal view is that the people who arrived in Britain from the sea about 4500 years ago were the Bell Beaker R1b folk.
    That's probably close to my view as well now. I've been doing linear regression analyses of the Ancient DNA samples of the Bell Beakers, Corded Ware, and Hinxton Celts and Anglo-Saxons, using the Eurogenes 15 populations spreadsheet, and without including the Corded Ware samples got the following results:

    R-Squared Hinxton Anglo-Saxons Hinxton Celts Bell Beakers Intercept
    Southeast_English 0.992643 0.09091 0.586855 0.32388 -0.01117
    Southwest_English 0.987226 0.291528 0.172233 0.548788 -0.0828
    West_Scottish 0.997614 0.035514 0.883953 0.092273 -0.077
    Danish 0.995665 0.57223 -0.02596 0.452749 0.006023
    North_Dutch 0.995606 0.672777 -0.1185 0.450742 -0.03299

    I then added the Corded Ware average, and got negative coefficients for the Corded Ware attribute in the British Samples:

    R-Squared Corded Ware Average Bell Beaker Average Hinxton 2, 3 and 5 Average Hinxton 1 and 4 Average Intercept
    Southeast_English 0.99727 -0.1809 0.534825 0.173386 0.451567 0.140614
    Southwest_English 0.997056 -0.26069 0.852778 0.410384 -0.02273 0.135932
    West_Scottish 0.998428 -0.07898 0.184374 0.071524 0.824885 -0.01073
    North_Dutch 0.995713 0.027794 0.418332 0.660106 -0.09772 -0.05631

    The Corded Ware did make a reasonably good showing in the Norwegian and Swedish samples:

    R-Squared Corded Ware Average Bell Beaker Average Hinxton 2, 3 and 5 Average Intercept
    Norwegian 0.983373 0.200697 0.032122 0.762082 0.034933
    Norwegian std err : 0.104949 0.22862 0.171303 0.574305
    Swedish 0.972284 0.271106 0.027215 0.702293 -0.00382
    Swedish std err : 0.134317 0.292596 0.219239 0.735015

    And to a lesser extent in the North Germans:

    R-Squared Corded Ware Average Bell Beaker Average Hinxton 1 and 4 Average Intercept
    North German 0.993364 0.100407 0.490937 0.403744 0.032947
    North German std err : 0.060915 0.181092 0.147057 0.341062

    The North Dutch, however, came out as about a 40-60 split of the Bell Beakers and Hinxton Anglo-Saxons:

    R-Squared Bell Beaker Average Hinxton 2, 3 and 5 Average Intercept
    North_Dutch 0.995576 0.405466 0.596296 -0.01119
    North_Dutch std err : 0.102244 0.083744 0.276286

    I realize this analysis method is far from perfect, but I guess it's something with what we have for estimating those proportions.

    It may well also be the case that the Bell Beakers in question had some Yamna influence, as noted particularly by their West Asian proportions in Eurogenes 15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    A brief timeline of settlements in Britain from here

    What are Your opinions. Who are the people at 2500 BC?
    Are there the R1b people?
    Are there pre-IE or this is the IE influx?
    In my opinion it is little bit too early for IE.
    Whoever there are I think it is quite probable that they are the builders of Stonehenge complex.
    I think the sequence was

    1) Doggerland HGs
    2) Atlantic Megalith from southern Portugal (megalithic structures start with them)
    3) Bell Beakers spreading as a minority artisan/trading population along the various trade routes including the Atlantic Megalith ones
    4) megalithic structures reach their peak - Stonehenge plus others
    5) one or more "Celtic" waves - Belgae last (IE?)
    6) Romans
    etc

    so from the timing I'd guess Stonehenge (and various other peak megaliths in Ireland, Brittany etc) were the result of the high point of Atlantic Megalith.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalit...pean_megaliths

    However given the timing the next question would be how important were the Bell Beakers in creating that high point?

    Imma gonna guess very important and probably something to do with copper.

    http://www.greatormemines.info/

    So (just my opinion) the most likely option is BB originally started some place early copper working developed and then spread as an artisan/trading group along the trade networks in various directions and when they found a region that had copper those regions got an economic / cultural boost from mining / crafting copper that lead to things like Stonehenge (and possibly to dudes with axes coming to take their stuff).

    So to answer your question
    - I think the base of the people who built Stonehenge were already there before 2500BC i.e. Atlantic Megalith (my guess mostly ydna E and maybe some J) possibly mixed with doggerland HGs (ydna C or I)
    - combined with copper working BB people (my guess R1b or at least one branch of it and not necessarily the most common ones now).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

    edit: the next question would be if BB spread as minority artisans then you can see how they might still have a large cultural or economic impact but how could they have become a big deal demographically in some regions but not others?
    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 29-03-15 at 22:48.

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    Well I agree that it was Bell Beaker folk who enter at 4500 BP.
    Where they R1b? Now I start to think that yes there were R1b. Because there is no any other major genetic event in this timeline. If not R1b who else?
    In my opinion R1b appearance was not accompanied by mass killing of males. They just had a better farming technic, better axes to cut the forest and open a space for farming. Better axes also means boats. Boats means also fishing. All this combined means more food, more R1b population.
    Is this map corect that shows spread of Beaker from Germany?



    383px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Well I agree that it was Bell Beaker folk who enter at 4500 BP.
    Where they R1b? Now I start to think that yes there were R1b. Because there is no any other major genetic event in this timeline. If not R1b who else?
    In my opinion R1b appearance was not accompanied by mass killing of males. They just had a better farming technic, better axes to cut the forest and open a space for farming. Better axes also means boats. Boats means also fishing. All this combined means more food, more R1b population.
    Is this map corect that shows spread of Beaker from Germany?



    383px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png
    There are various maps and various theories about who the Bell Beaker folk were and where they came from. If you explore this site, you'll find Maciamo's views on the matter. I believe he sees BB as largely being a cultural phenomenon, whereas some of us think it involved major population movements, perhaps initially mainly by sea. Regardless, the earliest "Maritime" style bell beakers are found on the Iberian peninsula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    There are various maps and various theories about who the Bell Beaker folk were and where they came from. If you explore this site, you'll find Maciamo's views on the matter. I believe he sees BB as largely being a cultural phenomenon, whereas some of us think it involved major population movements, perhaps initially mainly by sea. Regardless, the earliest "Maritime" style bell beakers are found on the Iberian peninsula.


    I'm afraid I 'll repeat myself but we have some clues to estimate BB was a speedy phenomenon at the scale of History, and shew different aspects according to regions, different depths of penetration too, and different physical types, even if 'dinarids' of the old school seem the first ones, everywhere (males for the most, I think) - strontium teeth stories and other non metric researches shew some foreign intruders in some diverse places with some mating with local females (non BB at first then) but apparently the different phases of BBs didn't began nor dead at the same time everywhere. the recent origin of the most of British BBs seem without doubt in the Netherlands-Germany Rhine (anthropology + archeology) and seem having been already the result of a mixture of populations and cultural influences (Corded by instance)- the Germany BBs DNA we have seem confirming a Northern Europe stage too, not very akin to southern Portugal populations of ancient time nor today - Hubert had the impression the BRITISH BBs could have been the ancestors of the celtic Gaels... the BBs of Ireland, physically (#not the supposed Gales here!), shew more ties with Iberia (Coon), scottish ones between Britain and Ireland - Y-R1b? I don't know, yes, but at what stage? very possible if we accept that BB played a booster role - NO HOMOGENEITY WHEN WE GO IN DETAILS. A BROAD NET OF MATERIAL ACCULTURATION BASED ON METALLURGY SKILLS FINALLY TRANSMITTED TO OTHER ELITES
    big movements of populations? pretty sure, but not the demic result of first BBs bearers - I think they seriously helped Celtic and proto-Germanic and Italic tribes to do a step or more forwards, and help the Atlantic megalithers too to get closer to these central Europe first I-Eans (final result: celtization of Iberia?)
    &: we suppose always Gaels took foot on Ireland just after leaving the Continent. it's very possible they stayed a long enough time in Britain; their supposed passage to ireland at Iron time could be related to Brittonic impulses from the Continent -

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