DNA links pensioner with roman soldiers from kosovo

[Besa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/7804845.stm

[Besa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani...Roman_Dardania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

[Angela]

Very intriguing Besa, but what led this man to that conclusion? Was it based on his yDna? Do you know how much resolution there was in terms of sub-clades?

Also, is there documentation that the auxiliaries at this particular fort were always from that specific area in the Balkans?

[Besa]

Very intriguing Besa, but what led this man to that conclusion? Was it based on his yDna? Do you know how much resolution there was in terms of sub-clades?

Also, is there documentation that the auxiliaries at this particular fort were always from that specific area in the Balkans?

there is a document written by steven bird about haplogroup ev-13 found in britain in small numbers and that it came from illyrian/thracian soldiers in the roman empire. the wright brothers carried the same haplogroup and they were originally from the essex area(?).. his claim about it coming from kosovo is based I think on the fact that its highest peak is among kosovar albanians. the region was under roman conquest like most of the balkans. The Dardanians became a big source among the roman empire with constantine the great, and justinian. but you are right to conclude that it exactly came from that area is not enough, but the conclusion is that it came from thracian/illyrian soldiers. this to me explains why haplogroup ev-13 and j2 is spread across the balkans, even in bulgaria where the thracians lived, it's high:

I think the Illyrians and thracians were majorly haplogroup EV-13 and J2 carriers, and maybe r1b (it might of come from celts and romans though or maybe through anatolia) I think they (illyrians&thracians) were related people, kinda like the Ingush and Chechens or like the Norwegians, Swedes and danes all these people carry much the same haplogroups.

I will try to find out more about this man.

for all I know it could also of come from south-Italy, where ancient greeks and messapians lived. but then again it goes back to the balkans

[Angela]

This is what I could quickly find out about the subject. Here is a British government website on the Roman conquest, occupation, and settlement of Wales:
http://cadw.wales.gov.uk/docs/cadw/p...ofWales_EN.pdf

It includes a map not only of the major (and minor) Roman fortresses, but of the roads and smaller vici or settlements of Roman soldiers and their "unofficial" families. I found it quite interesting.
Attachment 7149

This site lists the major Roman fortresses in Britain. The last two are in Wales:
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/01...britain/100677

From what I can tell from that link, the Cohors Sunicorum was recruited in Belgica, and the Legio II Augusta from Italy, southern France and Spain. In southern France and particularly parts of Italy you can certainly find E-V13.

Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_II_Augusta

The Cohors Sunicorum is mentioned here in this article on Seguntium. The only connection I see with the Balkans is when it was stationed there centuries later.
http://www.betws31.freeserve.co.uk/B...segontium.html

Of course that doesn't mean that there couldn't have been some legionnaires of Balkan descent.

Also, I wonder if it could have moved from the Chester area (Deva) over the border. The forts there were manned by the Legio II Adiutrix, many of whose Legionnaires were recruited in Egypt. (We probably wouldn't be talking about E-V13 in that case, however.)

Also involved was the XX Valeria Victrix, which was indeed stationed in the Balkans (Illyria).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_II_Adiutrix

Interestingly, assuming that we're talking about E-V13, as it wasn't mentioned in the article in the OP, the old Weale et all study found a high incidence of E-V13 in a small sample in Abergele, which is in northeast Wales, not northwest like the major Roman fortress in Wales, although I'm sure the Dna can travel distances like that.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-MBE-02-AS.pdf

There was also the mention of this testing of northeast Wales and over the border into England:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2753008/posts

Has anyone heard any more about it? It's a pity that the recent POBI study hasn't released their yDna information yet.

I think I read on 23andme that the Sinclairs of Scotland are also E-V13. Is that right?

Anyway, while I think one could speculate that the E-V14 arrived with Roman Legionnaires, given that there are important mineral deposits in this area, I don't know why an earlier arrival connected with Copper Age mining is out of the question either.

I do get, btw, that for some men there's more allure in being a descendent of a soldier than of a miner or farmer, but I think both speculations are reasonable. What is needed is detailed subclade information.

[Sile]

there is a document written by steven bird about haplogroup ev-13 found in britain in small numbers and that it came from illyrian/thracian soldiers in the roman empire. the wright brothers carried the same haplogroup and they were originally from the essex area(?).. his claim about it coming from kosovo is based I think on the fact that its highest peak is among kosovar albanians. the region was under roman conquest like most of the balkans. The Dardanians became a big source among the roman empire with constantine the great, and justinian. but you are right to conclude that it exactly came from that area is not enough, but the conclusion is that it came from thracian/illyrian soldiers. this to me explains why haplogroup ev-13 and j2 is spread across the balkans, even in bulgaria where the thracians lived, it's high:

I think the Illyrians and thracians were majorly haplogroup EV-13 and J2 carriers, and maybe r1b (it might of come from celts and romans though or maybe through anatolia) I think they (illyrians&thracians) were related people, kinda like the Ingush and Chechens or like the Norwegians, Swedes and danes all these people carry much the same haplogroups.

I will try to find out more about this man.

for all I know it could also of come from south-Italy, where ancient greeks and messapians lived. but then again it goes back to the balkans

I suggest you read this book for the area in question

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...ardani&f=false

Dardani are not illyrian, they are either alone or a branch of the thracians.
Illyrian origins in the late bronze-age are around modern east austria, hungaria, slovenia , croatia and northern parts of bosnia...........history states, as the celts pushed into the illyrians in the north, the illyrians pushed into thracian montenegro, the dardani, the macedonians and eventually into the epirotes.........but mostly they failed having been stopped by the Macedonians as per my link.
Illyrians have barely any E marker in there origins in the northern balkans.

The thracians are the majority in the balkans in terms of tribes and number of people in the pre roman times.............as herodorus states.....the Thracians are the most populus nation after the Indians

[Besa]

I suggest you read this book for the area in question

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...ardani&f=false

Dardani are not illyrian, they are either alone or a branch of the thracians.
Illyrian origins in the late bronze-age are around modern east austria, hungaria, slovenia , croatia and northern parts of bosnia...........history states, as the celts pushed into the illyrians in the north, the illyrians pushed into thracian montenegro, the dardani, the macedonians and eventually into the epirotes.........but mostly they failed having been stopped by the Macedonians as per my link.
Illyrians have barely any E marker in there origins in the northern balkans.

The thracians are the majority in the balkans in terms of tribes and number of people in the pre roman times.............as herodorus states.....the Thracians are the most populus nation after the Indians

Go ahead and tell me what haplogroup Illyrians belonged to?

Dardani are Illyrians. there lived Illyrians, thracians and Celts, it was a contact zone. Constantine the great who was from Dardania was Illyrian. so was Justinian. both are recorded of being illyrians. Thracians and illyrians might of been related as I said, of course they were. they were neighbors. Dardani might of been thraco-illyrians.

i2a? for that I suggest you take a look at the thread ''how did i2a get to the balkans'' take a look at some of the last pages. Its already explained i2a is from a recent immigration to the balkans. That leaves mostly EV-13, J2, and R1b left.


Actually Illyrians lived all the way down to modern day south-Albania. these were actually the ''real'' Illyrians. from south albania and montenegro/dalmatia today. they came in contact with greeks. it's even said the northern neighbors of the greeks were illyrians. The Liburnians were not Illyrians. I know you're one of those persons who actually thinks illyrians were i2a, this has already been disproven. But no one wants to face the truth. Illyrians don't have origin in the northern balkans, their origin comes from the south where they immigrated north.

And allot of the ''illyrian'' tribes in Bosnia were actually Celts or became celticized

As for the epirotes, they might of been a mix of ancient greek and illyrians, it doesn't really matter, they carried the same haplogroups. tell me how EV-13 and J2 became so high among greeks? Are they also Thracians? most of ancient greece was EV-13 and J2.. I believe there was a time in the balkans were most of it was EV-13 and J2 and maybe R1b...

[Besa]

This is what I could quickly find out about the subject. Here is a British government website on the Roman conquest, occupation, and settlement of Wales:
http://cadw.wales.gov.uk/docs/cadw/p...ofWales_EN.pdf

It includes a map not only of the major (and minor) Roman fortresses, but of the roads and smaller vici or settlements of Roman soldiers and their "unofficial" families. I found it quite interesting.
Attachment 7149

This site lists the major Roman fortresses in Britain. The last two are in Wales:
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/01...britain/100677

From what I can tell from that link, the Cohors Sunicorum was recruited in Belgica, and the Legio II Augusta from Italy, southern France and Spain. In southern France and particularly parts of Italy you can certainly find E-V13.

Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_II_Augusta

The Cohors Sunicorum is mentioned here in this article on Seguntium. The only connection I see with the Balkans is when it was stationed there centuries later.
http://www.betws31.freeserve.co.uk/B...segontium.html

Of course that doesn't mean that there couldn't have been some legionnaires of Balkan descent.

Also, I wonder if it could have moved from the Chester area (Deva) over the border. The forts there were manned by the Legio II Adiutrix, many of whose Legionnaires were recruited in Egypt. (We probably wouldn't be talking about E-V13 in that case, however.)

Also involved was the XX Valeria Victrix, which was indeed stationed in the Balkans (Illyria).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_II_Adiutrix

Interestingly, assuming that we're talking about E-V13, as it wasn't mentioned in the article in the OP, the old Weale et all study found a high incidence of E-V13 in a small sample in Abergele, which is in northeast Wales, not northwest like the major Roman fortress in Wales, although I'm sure the Dna can travel distances like that.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-MBE-02-AS.pdf

There was also the mention of this testing of northeast Wales and over the border into England:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2753008/posts

Has anyone heard any more about it? It's a pity that the recent POBI study hasn't released their yDna information yet.

I think I read on 23andme that the Sinclairs of Scotland are also E-V13. Is that right?

Anyway, while I think one could speculate that the E-V14 arrived with Roman Legionnaires, given that there are important mineral deposits in this area, I don't know why an earlier arrival connected with Copper Age mining is out of the question either.

I do get, btw, that for some men there's more allure in being a descendent of a soldier than of a miner or farmer, but I think both speculations are reasonable. What is needed is detailed subclade information.

Thanks. I will take a look at this and report back;)

[Yetos]

Go ahead and tell me what haplogroup Illyrians belonged to?

Dardani are Illyrians. there lived Illyrians, thracians and Celts, it was a contact zone. Constantine the great who was from Dardania was Illyrian. so was Justinian. both are recorded of being illyrians. Thracians and illyrians might of been related as I said, of course they were. they were neighbors. Dardani might of been thraco-illyrians.

i2a? for that I suggest you take a look at the thread ''how did i2a get to the balkans'' take a look at some of the last pages. Its already explained i2a is from a recent immigration to the balkans. That leaves mostly EV-13, J2, and R1b left.


Actually Illyrians lived all the way down to modern day south-Albania. these were actually the ''real'' Illyrians. from south albania and montenegro/dalmatia today. they came in contact with greeks. it's even said the northern neighbors of the greeks were illyrians. The Liburnians were not Illyrians. I know you're one of those persons who actually thinks illyrians were i2a, this has already been disproven. But no one wants to face the truth. Illyrians don't have origin in the northern balkans, their origin comes from the south where they immigrated north.

As for the epirotes, they might of been a mix of ancient greek and illyrians, it doesn't really matter, they carried the same haplogroups. tell me how EV-13 and J2 became so high among greeks?

CoNstantine the Great, Justinianus etc where Romans from Italy Naples,
They were Flavians,

so stop your sturpidty,
Greeks Serbs now Albanians, who nobody spoke about them at that time claim The Flavians

it is a pitty and stupidity. besides of a cheap propaganda,

Illyrians were from Norici, meaning no E no J Hg,

[Besa]

CoNstantine the Great, Justinianus etc where Romans from Italy Naples,
They were Flavians,

so stop your sturpidty,
Greeks Serbs now Albanians, who nobody spoke about them at that time claim The Flavians

it is a pitty and stupidity. besides of a cheap propaganda,

Illyrians were from Norici, meaning no E no J Hg,

Constantine was Illyrian from fathers side, and from a thracian mother, born in nish.

Tell me what haplogroup they belonged to?

I'm not claiming anyone. I just find it interesting how people who speak a slavic language dare to question the origin of the Albanians. Did Albanians come from mars? There were no slavs in the balkans prior to the first slavic immigration. The way I see it, Albanians have more right to claim anything. Also genetic studies show they have little slavic genes, while slavs have more of their genes. does this ring a bell? Their language is non-slavic, and non-latin (but influenced) since they have words dating back to roman times, north of the jireck line.. both eastern romance influence (dardania) and western (dalmatia). their split between geg and tosk happened before the 2nd slavic immigration.

I2a came with the proto-Serbs and Proto-croats who settled in the balkans after being invited by the Romans in croatia and bosnia. I2a was spread across the balkans by the Serbian empire. It's peak is in Croatia and Bosnia, and also in Ukraine/moldova, where the proto-serbs and croats might of immigrated from.

The capital of Illyrians was Scodra (Shkodra in albania)

Also the haplogroup r1a in greek macedonia comes from the first slavic immigration, the ancient macedonians were majorly haplogroup EV-13 and J2 carriers... so maybe not so ''makedonian original'' after all ;)

[Maleth]

CoNstantine the Great, Justinianus etc where Romans from Italy Naples,
They were Flavians,

so stop your sturpidty,

I dont know what HG mix the Illyrians were but Constantine the Great is known to be of Illyrian ancestry

Constantine the Great (Latin: Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus;^[2] Greek: Κωνσταντίνος ὁ Μέγας; 27 February c. 272 AD^[1] – 22 May 337 AD), also known as Constantine I or Saint Constantine,^[3] was aRoman Emperor from 306 to 337 AD of Illyrian ancestry. Constantine was the son of Flavius Valerius Constantius, a Roman army officer, and his consort Helena. His father became Caesar, the deputy emperor in the west in 293 AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

[Sile]

Go ahead and tell me what haplogroup Illyrians belonged to?

Dardani are Illyrians. there lived Illyrians, thracians and Celts, it was a contact zone. Constantine the great who was from Dardania was Illyrian. so was Justinian. both are recorded of being illyrians. Thracians and illyrians might of been related as I said, of course they were. they were neighbors. Dardani might of been thraco-illyrians.

i2a? for that I suggest you take a look at the thread ''how did i2a get to the balkans'' take a look at some of the last pages. Its already explained i2a is from a recent immigration to the balkans. That leaves mostly EV-13, J2, and R1b left.


Actually Illyrians lived all the way down to modern day south-Albania. these were actually the ''real'' Illyrians. from south albania and montenegro/dalmatia today. they came in contact with greeks. it's even said the northern neighbors of the greeks were illyrians. The Liburnians were not Illyrians. I know you're one of those persons who actually thinks illyrians were i2a, this has already been disproven. But no one wants to face the truth. Illyrians don't have origin in the northern balkans, their origin comes from the south where they immigrated north.

And allot of the ''illyrian'' tribes in Bosnia were actually Celts or became celticized

As for the epirotes, they might of been a mix of ancient greek and illyrians, it doesn't really matter, they carried the same haplogroups. tell me how EV-13 and J2 became so high among greeks? Are they also Thracians? most of ancient greece was EV-13 and J2.. I believe there was a time in the balkans were most of it was EV-13 and J2 and maybe R1b...

the ancient term illyrian is a geographical terms , like scandinavia. the five major Illyrian tribes did not even speak the same language as per linguists, they had each their own royal house and each their own customs

[Sile]

The 2006 Iberian congress on the markers of the Illyrian geographical areas is/was

Legend:
Autariates - serbia
Delmatae - Dalmatia (coastal croatia)
Noricum - eastern Austria
Taulanti - montenegro and northern albania
Dardanians - Kosovo
Liburni - coastal northern croatia and coastal slovenia
Veneti - North-east italy
Japodes - inland croatia and bosnia
Histri - Istria , modern slovenia and italy

Haplogroup I
(I1b-P37):
(Rootsi et
al., 2004), in the historical continental areas of
Autariates (63.80%)
Delmatae (48%),
Noricum (20%)
Taulanti (17%),
Dardanians (13.50%)
Liburni (9.5%),
Veneti (0.5%).
Japodes (0%)
Histri. (0%)


Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137):
Veneti (62%),
Autariates (27.27%)
Japodes (26.67%),
Noricum (21%),
Histri (18.18%),
Taulantii (17.60%),
Liburni (16.40%),
Dardanians (14.55%)
Delmatae (7.06%).


Haplogroup R1a:
Histri (45.45%),
Liburni (38.40%)
Noricum (37%),
Delmatae (22.58%),
Japodes (13.33%)
Autariates (12.10%),
Taulanti (9.80%)
Dardanians (8.82%).
Veneti. (0%)


Haplogrupa E
(E3b1-M78):
Dardanians (36.80%),
Taulantii (27%),
Japodes (13.33%),
Veneti (10.40%),
Histri (9.09%),
Autariates (8.50%)
Delmatae (4.66%).
Noricum (0%).


Haplogroup J (J2-M172):
Dardanians (15.02%)
Taulanti (14.30%),
Liburni (10.90%),
Veneti (9.60%)
Japodes (6.67%),
Delmatae (2.09%)
Autariates (1.40%).
Noricum ( 0%)
Histri (0%)


CONCLUSIONS
The obtained results demonstrate a clear northwestern/southeastern gradient pointing to a remarkable discrimination of the Northern Adriatic and Istria from other southeastern populations. The sub-differentiation of areas reflects quite clearly the effects of relative isolation of the continental mountain range with most conservative genetic traits as well as exposure of other analyzed areas to different neighbours, ecological niches, waves of intrusive immigrants introducing agriculture and later in Metal Ages, to waves of invading elites of different origin.

[Besa]

The veneti were not Illyrians. many of those tribes were not Illyrians.. Carni, histri, liburni.. all these were not illyrians, the real illyrians had a southern origin... if i remember correctly illyrians were a tribe who came into contact with greeks and then greeks started calling everyone in the north for illyrians?

You're forgetting the fact that balkans was conquered by Romans, and there were a people called '' white croats and white serbs'' who were invited to croatia and bosnia by the romans, that's how I2adin came to the balkans.

[Greying Wanderer]

It's not proof by any means but the Romans made a point of mentioning that the population of Wales was darker than the rest of the Britons so I think the E ydna in Wales is more likely to be pre-Roman which I think is most likely to be descended from Atlantic Megalith.

[Besa]

It's not proof by any means but the Romans made a point of mentioning that the population of Wales was darker than the rest of the Britons so I think the E ydna in Wales is more likely to be pre-Roman which I think is most likely to be descended from Atlantic Megalith.

that is true, the people of wales are known to have a higher percentage of meds even today. but how?

[bicicleur]

There are more such stories like this one about J2b in the SE of Netherlands who claim to be descendants of Thracian legionnaires :
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3927034&type=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
I guess they tell this kind of stories because people like to hear them.
They may be true but there is no proof. It just helps to sell DNA tests.

[giuseppe rossi]

It's not proof by any means but the Romans made a point of mentioning that the population of Wales was darker than the rest of the Britons so I think the E ydna in Wales is more likely to be pre-Roman which I think is most likely to be descended from Atlantic Megalith.

After the Neolitich Revolution, there were no South to North movements along the Atlantic coast.

Britain and Ireland were settled by people from the East only: Germany, Belgium, etc...

The Irish have higher ANE than the English. So did the Belgae from Southern England 2000 years ago.

[Aberdeen]

After the Neolitich Revolution, there were no South to North movements along the Atlantic coast.

Britain and Ireland were settled by people from the East only: Germany, Belgium, etc...

The Irish have higher ANE than the English. So did the Belgae from Southern England 2000 years ago.

That is extremely improbable. Until quite recently, it was much easier to travel by sea than by land. There was some movement by land, but one only has to look at the distribution pattern of R1b in western Europe to realize that much of it arrived by sea.

Some countries in the northern part of western Europe have higher ANE from WHG, and specifically from mtDNA U5.

[Sile]

There are more such stories like this one about J2b in the SE of Netherlands who claim to be descendants of Thracian legionnaires :
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3927034&type=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
I guess they tell this kind of stories because people like to hear them.
They may be true but there is no proof. It just helps to sell DNA tests.

I tend to agree with the british historians of the Roman legions that served in the UK, it seems they cannot find an "illyrian" Legion , but have found thracian and dacian legions from the balkans.

[Maleth]

I tend to agree with the british historians of the Roman legions that served in the UK, it seems they cannot find an "illyrian" Legion , but have found thracian and dacian legions from the balkans.

My question is if Scandinavia (who was not conquered by Romans) has same % of E-V13 2/3/4% (highest found in Denmark) like in Britian, it is highly likely that the source may not be contributed just to Roman sources.

[mihaitzateo]

there is a document written by steven bird about haplogroup ev-13 found in britain in small numbers and that it came from illyrian/thracian soldiers in the roman empire. the wright brothers carried the same haplogroup and they were originally from the essex area(?).. his claim about it coming from kosovo is based I think on the fact that its highest peak is among kosovar albanians. the region was under roman conquest like most of the balkans. The Dardanians became a big source among the roman empire with constantine the great, and justinian. but you are right to conclude that it exactly came from that area is not enough, but the conclusion is that it came from thracian/illyrian soldiers. this to me explains why haplogroup ev-13 and j2 is spread across the balkans, even in bulgaria where the thracians lived, it's high:

I think the Illyrians and thracians were majorly haplogroup EV-13 and J2 carriers, and maybe r1b (it might of come from celts and romans though or maybe through anatolia) I think they (illyrians&thracians) were related people, kinda like the Ingush and Chechens or like the Norwegians, Swedes and danes all these people carry much the same haplogroups.

I will try to find out more about this man.

for all I know it could also of come from south-Italy, where ancient greeks and messapians lived. but then again it goes back to the balkans

Lol,no one said it was from "illyrian and thracian soldiers" it said it was from Balkan colonists.
Thracians were not land workers,they were warriors .
Look at what that Greek historian is saying,that Thracians were considering tilling of the land shameful but were considering living from war honorable.
So think again before telling E-V13 from Great Britain is from Thracians and not from Balkanic peasants,which Roman Empire took from Balkans or conquered part of Dacia and moved to Great Britain,because was needed of workers in agriculture .
To make from a worker that was moved by force a "Thracian soldier" is just lol mode.
You know Roman Empire army was very professional army,a E-V13 farmer would not have even knew to put the armor on him,not to mention wielding of a sword or blocking with a shield and other more advanced fight techniques.
Besa,maybe you will tell us about how Albanian authorities are changing the name of the people to pretend they are descendants of Illyrians.

You know,you are Neolithic peasants,you should have great skills at working in agriculture,which you should better start to do,Europe needs lots of skilled workers in agriculture.
Most of your ancestors are here from before Thracians and Illyrians, your ancestors were working the land to give food to Thracians and Illyrians.

[Maleth]

Lol,no one said it was from "illyrian and thracian soldiers" it said it was from Balkan colonists.
Thracians were not land workers,they were warriors .
Look at what that Greek historian is saying,that Thracians were considering tilling of the land shameful but were considering living from war honorable.
So think again before telling E-V13 from Great Britain is from Thracians and not from Balkanic peasants,which Roman Empire took from Balkans or conquered part of Dacia and moved to Great Britain,because was needed of workers in agriculture .
To make from a worker that was moved by force a "Thracian soldier" is just lol mode.
You know Roman Empire army was very professional army,a E-V13 farmer would not have even knew to put the armor on him,not to mention wielding of a sword or blocking with a shield and other more advanced fight techniques.
Besa,maybe you will tell us about how Albanian authorities are changing the name of the people to pretend they are descendants of Illyrians.

You know,you are Neolithic peasants,you should have great skills at working in agriculture,which you should better start to do,Europe needs lots of skilled workers in agriculture.
Most of your ancestors are here from before Thracians and Illyrians, your ancestors were working the land to give food to Thracians and Illyrians.

Are you for real? are you suffering from some kind of E-V13 phobia? Agriculture is what gave rise to civilization and E people might have been just part of it as it was probable that the first agricultural communities were already a mix of HG. What is so honorable in living on plunder and booty?

[mihaitzateo]

Are you for real? are you suffering from some kind of E-V13 phobia? Agriculture is what gave rise to civilization and E people might have been just part of it as it was probable that the first agricultural communities were already a mix of HG. What is so honorable in living on plunder and booty?

Where I said that living on plunder is honorable?
I just quoted what a Greek historian was telling about Thracians.
I do not have any E-V13 phobia,I just said that most likely those Balkanic people were not Thracian soldiers,but simple peasants that were forced moved to Great Britain.

[Maleth]

Where I said that living on plunder is honorable?
I just quoted what a Greek historian was telling about Thracians.
I do not have any E-V13 phobia,I just said that most likely those Balkanic people were not Thracian soldiers,but simple peasants that were forced moved to Great Britain.

Jolly good