R-V88 Among Europeans

[Athiudisc]

Oh yeah really, kid?

Well, that just happened. The guy who appears to be barely out of his teens and a "forensic anthropologist" that doesn't understand basic terminology just called me a "kid." Which, of course, isn't something that incredibly insecure young people do. Wow.

What does Negroid mean then?

Are you at all serious? "What does Negroid mean then?" after being told that it's not simply about dark skin, and your own source (Wiki) explaining it?

You honestly want to marry yourself to this absurd contention that "dark skin = Negroid?"

My education hasn't failed me.

If you claim to understand the concept of "Negroid" due to your "education as a forensic anthropologist" yet consistently mangle the definition and usage...yes, it has.

You aren't being blunt; you are mocking me over some possible guilt-complex and are trying to beguile or make up your own reality of events.

It's obviously the guilt complex. I feel bad for misrepresenting myself as a forensic anthropologist when I'm very obviously not.

That was me, right? Not you?

[Melancon]

The only difference with R1b people in the Cameroons is that by the time they got there they were probably already very mixed and little of the original "Middle Eastern" autosomal component was left.

Maybe the only way of knowing this is to do an autosomal DNA test on Chadic men and see if they share a small amount of unique, Near Eastern DNA; not found in other SSA populations.

[Aberdeen]

I was theorizing. It's only common sense.

Where else did all the other races "Out of Africa" come from? Do you have an explanation? You people still have not got the point. Even if Europeans had tan skin; that means they originally started off as Negroids and then went from black to tan to fair-skin. Oh my gosh. Do I have to make it any more simpler?

Are you saying that it would have been impossible for Subsaharan Africans to become darker than their ancestors? I've noticed that while one sees a variety of skin shades among Mediterranean Caucasians, they are, on average, darker than northern Europeans in a way that doesn't seem to be caused by genetics so I assume it's in response to living in a hotter climate. Even the average Acadian looks a bit darker than the average French Canadian after only about 2.5 centuries in a hotter climate. Humans evolve to suit their environment.

[Melancon]

You honestly want to marry yourself to this absurd contention that "dark skin = Negroid?"



If you claim to understand the concept of "Negroid" due to your "education as a forensic anthropologist" yet consistently mangle the definition and usage...yes, it has.



It's obviously the guilt complex. I feel bad for misrepresenting myself as a forensic anthropologist when I'm very obviously not.

That was me, right? Not you?

What exactly are you insinuating big stuff? Give me the explanation for Negroid then, smarty. Your personal attacks on me are beside the point, by the way. It wasn't me who started these provocative arguments, it was you; and I was just replying back sarcastically. You have a major guilt-complex for sure.

[Melancon]

Are you saying that it would have been impossible for Subsaharan Africans to become darker than their ancestors? I've noticed that while one sees a variety of skin shades among Mediterranean Caucasians, they are, on average, darker than northern Europeans in a way that doesn't seem to be caused by genetics so I assume it's in response to living in a hotter climate. Even the average Acadian looks a bit darker than the average French Canadian after only about 2.5 centuries in a hotter climate. Humans evolve to suit their environment.

I never said anything similar or even relative to that. You can even ask sparkey where I'm going with this "theory" of mine. But Alas; you fail to get the point like usual..

[Athiudisc]

What exactly are you insinuating big stuff? Give me the explanation for Negroid then, smarty. Your personal attacks on me are beside the point, by the way. It wasn't me who started these provocative arguments, it was you; and I was just replying back sarcastically. You have a major guilt-complex for sure.

You are full of crazy.

You already linked the Wiki definition of "Negroid." That you failed to see it contradicted you isn't my problem.

Of course my personal attacks are beside the point...they're only in response to yours, which are also beside the point. Your point remains wrong.

I have nothing to feel guilty about. You're the one making a fool of yourself.

[Angela]

Enough with the personal attacks, both of you. Keep it civil.

Ed. Oh, that was said with my moderator hat on...:)

[Melancon]

You are full of crazy.

You already linked the Wiki definition of "Negroid." That you failed to see it contradicted you isn't my problem.

Of course my personal attacks are beside the point...they're only in response to yours, which are also beside the point. Your point remains wrong.

I have nothing to feel guilty about. You're the one making a fool of yourself.

Really?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Negroid


1. (Peoples) denoting, relating to, or belonging to a darker-complexioned supposed racial group of mankind. This group includes the indigenous peoples of Africa south of the Sahara, their descendants elsewhere, and some Melanesian peoples




2. of, designating, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, generally marked by brown to black skin, darkeyes, and woolly or crisp hair and including esp. the indigenous peoples of sub-Saharan Africa and their descendants.

[Melancon]

You are full of crazy.

You already linked the Wiki definition of "Negroid." That you failed to see it contradicted you isn't my problem.

Of course my personal attacks are beside the point...they're only in response to yours, which are also beside the point. Your point remains wrong.

I have nothing to feel guilty about. You're the one making a fool of yourself.

Listen kid, I don't have time to bother with you anymore. Get over yourself or whatever it is you have against me. If you don't get the point, then do not make any more posts.

[Athiudisc]

Really?

Really. Read it again.

...

generally marked by brown to black skin, darkeyes, and woolly or crisp hair and including esp. the indigenous peoples of sub-Saharan Africa and their descendants.

Dark skin alone doesn't meet the definition. Again. As per your earlier Wiki citation.

[Athiudisc]

Listen kid...

Lol. Personal attack, the usual usage of which was delineated earlier.

...I don't have time to bother with you anymore.

Of course you do. If you don't, stop posting or admit your theory has huge holes that you can't support.

Get over yourself or whatever it is you have against me. If you don't get the point, then do not make any more posts.

Repeat that to yourself. Seriously.

[Angela]

Melancon, a word of advice...when you're in a hole, stop digging. Forget about the definition of "Negroid". It doesn't matter. The point is that by the time that R1b V88 existed and West Eurasians were migrating back to Africa, they no longer looked like Kostenki or whatever. Ok?

[Vallicanus]

Such nonsense right? This is my own theory; but do you have your own explanation? Where is the explanation why Mongolian East Asians and Native Americans carry Y-DNA C; as do Australian Aboriginals? Where did the first haplogroup C mutate? Asia? If the first C man had dark-skin and descended from haplogroup A; then he is most certainly Negroid in origin. Once again, you fail at this and continue arguing over nothing; and wasting everybody's time...

Do you consider Australoids to be Negroids and what about Melanesians and Veddahs?

[Melancon]

Do you consider Australoids to be Negroids and what about Melanesians and Veddahs?

Yes, they are all Negroids. Some unprofessional amateurs here who have no study or credibility in the field of Anthropology would only believe the contrary.

I had to repeat myself to a user named Aberdeen here so many times to try and get my point across; but Alas, he can't get his fixation that "race doesn't exist" out of his mind.

He also believes that the original Out-of-Africa humans were not of the Negroid racial classification ... which is such a joke because all evidence and logic points to that reality. Y-DNA Haplogroup C people most definitely weren't originally fair-skinned or even tan-skinned people.

[Melancon]

Melancon, a word of advice...when you're in a hole, stop digging. Forget about the definition of "Negroid". It doesn't matter. The point is that by the time that R1b V88 existed and West Eurasians were migrating back to Africa, they no longer looked like Kostenki or whatever. Ok?

I'm not in a hole; as I stated before, I am a professional Forensic anthropologist myself. And I see mummies and corpses pretty often. You cannot stump me in a logical foxhole; the answers are so simple as to look it up in a dictionary... Look up the word Negroid in a dictionary and see what it says. Apparently the Negroid racial classification has nothing to do with dark-skin; as it's own Indo-European name seemed to originally suggest. My dad is also a professional Forensic scientist himself. But you people really give me something to laugh about because most of you are such a pitiful joke. I really cannot believe this argument against my theorizing exists; but it seems to be a reality because I am still debating it......

I could be wrong. Does it really matter? I just think that the current Out of Africa theory makes no sense.

[Athiudisc]

He also believes that the original Out-of-Africa humans were not of the Negroid racial classification ... which is such a joke because all evidence and logic points to that reality. Y-DNA Haplogroup C people most definitely weren't originally fair-skinned or even tan-skinned people.

The joke is that you still don't understand that "Negroid" is not defined by "dark skin."

My dad is also a professional Forensic scientist himself.

That just happened. Melancon provided as support for his misunderstanding of physical anthropology that "his dad is a professional forensic scientist." Except he capitalised "forensic" for some weird, non-English reason.

But you people really give me something to laugh about because most of you are such a pitiful joke. I really cannot believe this argument my theorizing exists; but it seems to be a reality because I am still debating it......

"You're all fools! I cannot bother to support my pet theories because my dad and I are too busy trying to redefine 'Negroid." We're totally professional Forensic scientists. Dark skin = Negroid. Don't confuse me with your facts! Did I tell you about my dad, kid?"

I am absolutely convinced this is all a jest. It's reaching beyond absurdity to clownshoes.

[MOESAN]

Are you saying that it would have been impossible for Subsaharan Africans to become darker than their ancestors? I've noticed that while one sees a variety of skin shades among Mediterranean Caucasians, they are, on average, darker than northern Europeans in a way that doesn't seem to be caused by genetics so I assume it's in response to living in a hotter climate. Even the average Acadian looks a bit darker than the average French Canadian after only about 2.5 centuries in a hotter climate. Humans evolve to suit their environment.

very often I pay attention to what you write because yur points are well based or at least logical
let me here disagree a bit; I don't think such adaptation could take place at modern times in so a short span of time, sorry - that said I support your other views -
Melancon is a curiously minded person, I think and so numerous post in a day about pigmentation only, amazing

[Melancon]

The joke is that you still don't understand that "Negroid" is not defined by "dark skin."



That just happened. Melancon provided as support for his misunderstanding of physical anthropology that "his dad is a professional forensic scientist." Except he capitalised "forensic" for some weird, non-English reason.



"You're all fools! I cannot bother to support my pet theories because my dad and I are too busy trying to redefine 'Negroid." We're totally professional Forensic scientists. Dark skin = Negroid. Don't confuse me with your facts! Did I tell you about my dad, kid?"

I am absolutely convinced this is all a jest. It's reaching beyond absurdity to clownshoes.

Where are your facts, son? You claim to know more than me but have yet to provide any definition of Negroid. I have asked you to define the meaning of a Negroid racial specimen. So um, excuse me?

[Athiudisc]

Where are your facts, son?

I am not your "son." I am likely of an age with your father. Let it go. Judging by your picture, I have shirts older than you. Stop with the immature attempts at insult that only people of limited experience think are pithy.

You claim to know more than me but have yet to provide any definition of Negroid.

YOU provided the definition earlier, from Wikipedia. You've continued to contradict it. No one is employing you as a forensic anthropologist if you can't even understand the definitions you claim to be basing an argument on (which are still wrong).

I have asked you to define the meaning of a Negroid racial specimen. So um, excuse me?

You are not excused. Take your drubbing. The only reason I even bothered with any of this, as I said before, is that you've been entirely and undeservedly insulting of almost every single poster on this thread.

Yet AGAIN, for you to educate yourself:

"In modern usage, it is associated with populations that on the whole possess the suite of typical Negroid physical characteristics."

and

"As dark skin is also relatively common in human groups that have historically not been defined as 'Negroid,' including many populations in both Africa and Asia, it is only when present with other typical Negroid physical traits such as broad facial features, Negroid cranial and dental characteristics, prognathism, afro-textured hair and neoteny, that it has been used in Negroid classification."

So your usage is, and has been throughout this thread (based, as it is, on the presence of dark skin ALONE being a defining factor of "Negroid"), entirely incorrect.

In the physical anthropological sense.

Which is the field you claim to be employed in.

Stop. Digging.

[MOESAN]

to MELANCON

Melancon, what is running with you? have you not the impression to "run after your tail"?
I 'ii not going to take again the good arguments exposed here by other forumers in the details
just
-Australian Aborigenes (and other Australoids) don't have more ties with Subsaharian Negroids than we have, or not at a great scale
-for true anthropologists, black or very dark skin is not a sufficiant criteria to be classed 'negroid'
-we have no proof of what was the basic allele for a lot of traits at the beginning of Humanity even if today the genes conditining dark skin are considered as 'ancestral'
so some mutations can have darkened the skin colour among today Subsaharian 'negroids', as other mutations had differentiated them from the primitive human types: maybe occurred AND lightening mutations AND darkening mutations? (only hypothesis here, just to stay sceptical but look at chimps: some have very light skin under their dark body hair (and freckling) when other have black skin!)
-all of us had inherited different mutations putting us, in different aspects, not always the same, farther from our primitive forms - maybe Australoids, stayed always in small populations, have underwent a bit fewer new mutations?
-it would be interesting to measure the%s of 'oceanian' aDNA among Europeans and subsaharian Africans -
-NO, our ancestors from Africa (the only ones?) were not already 'negroid' - 'negroid' kit of features accumulted itself with times and mutations different from the mutations other types underwent -
-only American anglo-saxon accultured persons can make "a Black" of a man by the reason he has a light brown skin -
all that keep us far from the V88 question, a DNA-HGr supposed by someones as from Iberia, and by the majority from Near-Eastern what seems making sense at first sight

I don't know what your are going to do, Melancon, but a glass of a fresh drink and a CD of pacific music could do it very well

[Athiudisc]

I don't know what your are going to do...but a glass of a fresh drink and a CD of pacific music could do it very well

Going to have to agree with this.

[Melancon]

I am not your "son." I am likely of an age with your father. Let it go. Judging by your picture, I have shirts older than you. Stop with the immature attempts at insult that only people of limited experience think are pithy.



YOU provided the definition earlier, from Wikipedia. You've continued to contradict it. No one is employing you as a forensic anthropologist if you can't even understand the definitions you claim to be basing an argument on (which are still wrong).



You are not excused. Take your drubbing. The only reason I even bothered with any of this, as I said before, is that you've been entirely and undeservedly insulting of almost every single poster on this thread.

Yet AGAIN, for you to educate yourself:

"In modern usage, it is associated with populations that on the whole possess the suite of typical Negroid physical characteristics."

and

"As dark skin is also relatively common in human groups that have historically not been defined as 'Negroid,' including many populations in both Africa and Asia, it is only when present with other typical Negroid physical traits such as broad facial features, Negroid cranial and dental characteristics, prognathism, afro-textured hair and neoteny, that it has been used in Negroid classification."

So your usage is, and has been throughout this thread (based, as it is, on the presence of dark skin ALONE being a defining factor of "Negroid"), entirely incorrect.

Well if you are likely as old as my father; you should surely act your age. LOL. That could be a start. No one was insulting anyone here until you and Aberdeen came along, so therefore.


Definition of Negroid from Wikipedia:

Negroid has both Latin and Ancient Greek etymological roots. It literally translates as "black resemblance" from negro/niger (black), and -oeidēs, equivalent to -o- + -eidēs "having the form of", derivative of eîdos "form".^[8][9] The earliest recorded use of the term "Negroid" came in 1859.^[10] In modern usage, it is associated with populations that on the whole possess the suite of typical Negroid physical characteristics.^[11]


Where is dark skin mentioned? I see "Black resemblance".

YOU provided the definition earlier, from Wikipedia. You've continued to contradict it. No one is employing you as a forensic anthropologist if you can't even understand the definitions you claim to be basing an argument on (which are still wrong).

Um, what. I haven't even contradicted myself. Please proof-read this post before you comment on it.

[Athiudisc]

Well if you are likely as old as my father; you should surely act your age. LOL. That could be a start. No one was insulting anyone here until you and Aberdeen came along, so therefore.

I'll compile your pointless insults if I have to. But we both know you're just punching out of your weight.

Where is dark skin mentioned?

By YOU. Why else do you consider the La Brana or Loschbour samples "Negroid?" Please keep your own theories straight if you're going to be so insulting towards those who point out their fallacies.

Um, what. I haven't even contradicted myself. Please proof-read this post before you comment on it.

Please read the thread before sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "you never pointed out my contradictions in numerous posts that I am choosing to ignore because I can't respond to them with anything other than 'kid!'"

[Angela]

This discussion has become absurd. The topic is R1b V88 among Europeans...not definitions of "Negroid" or the pigmentation of R1b V88 when it left for Africa. Any more personal attacks, or spam comments, or off topic discussions and some of you will start getting infractions. Last warning.

[Athiudisc]

This discussion has become absurd.

At the risk of an infraction, I did point this out earlier.