R-V88 Among Europeans

[Angela]

At the risk of an infraction, I did point this out earlier.

Let it go.

[Angela]

DO NONE OF YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH? I have deleted three posts. The next one to post an off topic comment on this thread is going to get an infraction.

[Twilight]

Are you saying that it would have been impossible for Subsaharan Africans to become darker than their ancestors? I've noticed that while one sees a variety of skin shades among Mediterranean Caucasians, they are, on average, darker than northern Europeans in a way that doesn't seem to be caused by genetics so I assume it's in response to living in a hotter climate. Even the average Acadian looks a bit darker than the average French Canadian after only about 2.5 centuries in a hotter climate. Humans evolve to suit their environment.

Most agreed Angela, getting back to business. Haplogroups don't really contribute to skin color; that would make Ydna Haplogroups E, H and C to have been sister clades and that can't be write. That being said due to R1B-V88s presence in North Africa; not to mention the Moors and Caspian Culture in Spain. I don't see any problem with R1B-V88 being in Europe in trace amounts.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...1c_.28R-V88.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_E...ajan_117AD.png


Although if R1B-V88 is to cross over to Europe, I reckon that both the Moors and The Former Carthaginian Romans could have possibly brought this Haplogroup to Europe or at least the Mediterranean.

Apparently V-88 originated among Sub-Saharan Africans, however we also see many cases of it in Europe and the UK.

How would it have ended up in these places and who would have carried it there?

As far as the UK is concerned, perhaps a couple of Romanized North Africans bearing YDNA R1B-V88 migrated into Britannia; probably due to military campaigns, trading, etc and decides to Retire and raise a family in Britannia.

Maciamo has typed up a wonderful description of R1B-V88 on this link :)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...A.shtml#Africa

[RobertColumbia]

...As far as the UK is concerned, perhaps a couple of Romanized North Africans bearing YDNA R1B-V88 migrated into Britannia; probably due to military campaigns, trading, etc and decides to Retire and raise a family in Britannia.

Maciamo has typed up a wonderful description of R1B-V88 on this link :)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...A.shtml#Africa

It's also possible that a small amount of R1b-V88 remained with other R1b cousins and became part of the original Celtic, Roman, etc. cultures.

R1b-V88 could also have been picked up by Vikings or other seafarers trading between Egypt and Britain.

[Twilight]

Very true, I'd be quite curious to see what the original poster; Learning Genetic's Eurogene K36 admixture. Perhaps Eurogene can narrow down his " direct ancestor's ancient homeland" :). If Learning Genetics is not R1B-V88 than perhaps there are other Englishmen of this class that can help

[MOESAN]

I have not had time to completely read this thread - I red 4 or 5 pages, and I saw a lot of out of topic posts and curious affirmations concerning past and current pigmentation -
Here a post a link about a possible origin of V88 (it's the topic, is it not?) in Iberia before reaching North East Africa... I have no opinion for now.
If this link had already been posted I beg your pardon;

https://www.academia.edu/8458787/Y_C...Iberian_Origin

[Rethel]

V88 is IE in origin (IE it is what I called IE, not what someone else think
IE is) and this is the reason, why this haplotype is spread in Europe also...

Back migration from Africa? For what, why and when?

Did V88 was in Iberia - yes it was because are findings of that haplotype
long before mainstream IEs came to Spain. V88 probably split early from R
1-one tribe, and went where ever he wish to go :) In Iberia if I remember
correctly the samples are dating aroud 6000 ya so even this scenario once
again had prooved that some scientists are lying creating fary tales like this:



Here:



We have some more carefull datation, but still it is very wishfull thinking.
15.000 years was created from nothing, simply number was taken from air.

As we can see on this map of dislocation R1b mostly V88 in subsaharian Africa,
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png the source
of V88 is on the east - in Sudan. I guess, as I said earlier in this thread that V88
came to Africa about 3,5-5,5k ybp probably through Egypt. The best guess which
I can make, is that first V88 could be Hyksoses, because they were a mixes tribes
of indoeuropean, hurian and semitic peoples who came to Egypt in historical time.
It can be also some non well known to us invasion on Africa and Egypt some 5500
years ago which can be validate by quite european-looking people in the pre- and
first dynasties Egypt. For example the oldest known mummy called Ginger is from
about 3300bc was blond. This invasion after leaving Egypt had to stay some time
in Sudan and after that (as some sahels stories tells) go into west. When? Know
one knows, it could be not so long time ago, as well as at the beginning of their
jourey. Maybe this people have something to do with Sao civilisation. About IEn
origin of that subclade testifies not only realtion to another R1b group, but also
remains of that subgroup in Spain, Europe and Levant. In polish project in FT
we have 3 samples of that subgroup, what gives almost 0,1 % of all project
members. If this percentage would be accurate number to whole Poland or
even plus Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine (which are part of project also),
that percentages gives tens or hundreds thousands of people with that
mutation living among east-central Europeans. And this is not so smal
number as some one can think.

In this article is said also that reemigration took place 1000-3200 bp - but
exactly the same could be done otherwise in the at the same time - so this
is additional reason, why I can make a hipotesy, that V88 is IE in origin, as
every subclade of R1 M173 (or maybe even M207, but I am not cerain; but
in the case of R1 - I am). And - what is probably much more importat than
that, according to this author, emigration from Iberia could have place 1000
to 1600 years ago... so... It is very very indeuropean subgroup...

Quote:

A small sample of 69 records was used as the seed population.
This was amplified to 119 records. This population gives an out
of Iberia TMRCA of 7,700 ± 1,600 ybp, an into Africa TMRCA of
5,500 ± 1,000 ybp and a re-migration to Europe TMRCA of
3,200 ± 1,000 ybp. While TMRCA calculations are notoriously
inaccurate, these calculations give a r e l a t i v e chronological
magnitude. Genetic data is too often treated as discrete units
having no interaction. SNP populations tend to be analyzed in a
vacuum. Population genetics needs to be viewed as a network
analysis.

[Athiudisc]

It's certainly not impossible, Rethel, but I would disagree that V88 is a "very Indo-European subgroup." Even if it were IE in origin, today the vast majority of bearers have very little connection to anything would could consider IE, except perhaps for a colonial language legacy.

Assuming it was IE when it came to Africa, we're looking at a Chadic version of the Basque situation...lots of uniparental input, but prior language retention.

Still assuming V88 was IE, do you believe the scarcity of it in Europe is due to mere bad luck amongst earlier Eurasian V88s, or do you envision the European V88s as an extreme minority due to the mass and almost complete emigration of V88 to Africa?

[Sile]

I have not had time to completely read this thread - I red 4 or 5 pages, and I saw a lot of out of topic posts and curious affirmations concerning past and current pigmentation -
Here a post a link about a possible origin of V88 (it's the topic, is it not?) in Iberia before reaching North East Africa... I have no opinion for now.
If this link had already been posted I beg your pardon;

https://www.academia.edu/8458787/Y_C...Iberian_Origin

this paper is far superior on why and how R-V88 when back into africa from the levant

http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unra...Neolithisation

[Silesian]

V88 is IE in origin .......................
As we can see on this map of dislocation R1b mostly V88 in subsaharian Africa,
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png the source
of V88 is on the east - in Sudan. I guess, as I said earlier in this thread that V88
came to Africa about 3,5-5,5k ybp probably through Egypt. The best guess which
I can make, is that first V88 could be Hyksoses, because they were a mixes tribes
of indoeuropean, hurian and semitic peoples who came to Egypt in historical time.
It can be also some non well known to us invasion on Africa and Egypt some 5500
years ago which can be validate by quite european-looking people in the pre- and
first dynasties Egypt. For example the oldest known mummy called Ginger is from
about 3300bc was blond. This invasion after leaving Egypt had to stay some time
in Sudan and after that (as some sahels stories tells) go into west. When? Know
one knows, it could be not so long time ago, as well as at the beginning of their
jourey. Maybe this people have something to do with Sao civilisation. About IEn
origin of that subclade testifies not only realtion to another R1b group, but also
remains of that subgroup in Spain, Europe and Levant. In polish project in FT
we have 3 samples of that subgroup, what gives almost 0,1 % of all project
members. If this percentage would be accurate number to whole Poland or
even plus Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine (which are part of project also),
that percentages gives tens or hundreds thousands of people with that
mutation living among east-central Europeans. And this is not so smal
number as some one can think.

In this article is said also that reemigration took place 1000-3200 bp - but
exactly the same could be done otherwise in the at the same time - so this
is additional reason, why I can make a hipotesy, that V88 is IE in origin, as
every subclade of R1 M173 (or maybe even M207, but I am not cerain; but
in the case of R1 - I am). And - what is probably much more importat than
that, according to this author, emigration from Iberia could have place 1000
to 1600 years ago... so... It is very very indeuropean subgroup...

Have you ever wondered what King Tut's results were, taken so many years ago? With the latest technology, we could retest him, even if the results from 2007 were valid or not valid. Anyway, they still have not been officially released results as far as I know; and we are coming up into 2016.

https://www.igenea.com/en/tutankhamun

[Rethel]

It's certainly not impossible, Rethel, but I would disagree that V88 is a "very Indo-European subgroup." Even if it were IE in origin, today the vast majority of bearers have very little connection to anything would could consider IE, except perhaps for a colonial language legacy.

Assuming it was IE when it came to Africa, we're looking at a Chadic version of the Basque situation...lots of uniparental input, but prior language retention.

Yes, I agree, with your statment but the point is, that R1 = IE always (you can
call it the beginnings if you want becasue it is not matter what language people
are speaking today, because in every country population is mixed) and about time
frames, which are usually to big as they where in reality, what this example (as
many others of course) shows us.

Still assuming V88 was IE, do you believe the scarcity of it in Europe is due to mere bad luck amongst earlier Eurasian V88s, or do you envision the European V88s as an extreme minority due to the mass and almost complete emigration of V88 to Africa?

V88 in Europe still exists. This is a fact.

Probably they emigrated when they still were a small in number.
And when they were in Africa they grow in number, aspecially,
if they created some state, as I suppose Sao civilisation, then
as an aristocracy, they can have much women and spread their
gen - but it is of course not necessary to larger their number.

We have not only Basque and Chadic who do not fit lingustically,
but also Altaians, Baszkirs, Udmurts, probably even Fins - but in
this case R1 almost disappear in favor of ugric N1c.

1/3 of Turkic peoples are IE R1, 1/5 Afroasistics in Africa are IE R1.
1/15 of Indian in Americas is IE R1 2,8% of east asians is R1 - but
it does not mean that they are originally chinese, korean, mongolian
or something like that - they simply were absorbed by locals.

In every such case we have data from normal history which shows
migration of Indoeuropeans (at least white) people which atfer that
were asimitating in neighbourhood. Only in the case of Tschad we do
not have any historical data, but it does not mean that they are not
from IE, and that they in some miraculosly way emerge in Africa

I am repeating this so many years, that I can do this next 10 in the face
of every stragne or some stupid theory. R1 that are Indoeuropeans and
only that (maybe plus R2??). Nor Q, nor I, nor J1, nor J2, nor, I1, nor E,
nor whatever is not an indoeuropean original marker and can be not.
During last 10 years all facts, ALL, were changing on the favor of my
statment, and will be still, becasue this is only logical and reasonable
explanation for corelation between languages and haplotypes.

The same rule of course is working in another
haplogroups... R1 is not only an exeption.

[Rethel]

Have you ever wondered what King Tut's results were, taken so many years ago? With the latest technology, we could retest him, even if the results from 2007 were valid or not valid. Anyway, they still have not been officially released results as far as I know; and we are coming up into 2016.

https://www.igenea.com/en/tutankhamun

Yes this is another example and confirmation, that early indoeuropean migrations had direction into Africa.
Together with Ginger (who shows much earlier migrations) it making a new problem and connection...Who
and why had build the piramids? If they were a burlial places, then together with the presence of IEpeople
in Egypt we have some kind of similarity and in this enviroment we can/should see pyramids as giant stone
kurgans of indoeuropean origin... This is a hypothesis, which can be checked by testing mummies's haplos.

[Silesian]

............... This is a hypothesis, which can be checked by testing mummies's haplos.......

I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, if ever.