Ice Age Europeans On Brink Of Extinction

[Tomenable]

45,770 - 44,010 years ago in western Siberia lived people with haplogroup MPS, among descendants of which is haplogroup P, among descendants of which are haplogroups Q and R, among descendants of which are haplogroups R2 and R1, among descendants of which are haplogroups R1a and R1b:

"Genome sequence of a 45,000-year-old modern human from western Siberia":

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v514/n7523/full/nature13810.html

Haplogroup MPS is also known as haplogroup K(xLT):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml

That prehistoric Siberian with haplogroup MPS was so called Ust'-Ishim man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ust'-Ishim_man

Ust'-Ishim man was already partially descended from Neanderthals:

Neanderthal DNA in modern humans occurs in broken fragments; however, the Neanderthal DNA in Ust'-Ishim man occurs in clusters, indicating that Ust'-Ishim man lived in the immediate aftermath of the genetic interchange.[3] The genomic sequencing of Ust'-Ishim man has led to refinement of the estimated date of mating between the two hominin species to between 52,000 and 58,000 years ago.[3]

East Asian haplogroup Q, Indo-European haplogroup R1 and Dravidian haplogroup R2 are - ultimately - also descended from that population:

https://physicalanthropologymzi.wordpress.com/

https://physicalanthropologymzi.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/from-ancient-bone-to-modern-human/

By comparing Ust’-Ishim’s genome to various groups of modern and ancient humans, the researchers are filling in gaps in the map of initial human migrations around the globe. They found that he is as genetically similar to present-day East Asians as to ancient genomes found in Western Europe and Siberia, suggesting that the population he was part of split from the ancestors of both Europeans and East Asians, prior to their divergence from each other.

 

[Hauteville]

So E-M81 is European too? It was not brought there by Berbers, Arabs, Moors or Levantine people? How old is E-M81? Did it evolve in Iberian peninsula with C6?

I always found the genetics of Spain to be quite unusual.

Apparently, this is the homeland of the first Neanderthals.

E-M81 is Berber.

 

[MOESAN]

I agree Tomenables
but I'm surprised people (not you) ignore yet that ancient people of human races, spite differences between them, had more ressemblances between them than to any modern type whatever the place they lived in (except the australoids who kept more archaic features concerning head: less time, less divergences, as a whole -
it 's maybe among 'europoids' that we find the more "centroid archaic" traits concerning skull, not at all among typical southeast 'mongoloids' nor among typical 'negroids' ! (even if as a whole every big group shows proper developments of new traits -

 

[bicicleur 2]

Here is description:

"In Sungir, the groundfloor of the dwellings were of a rectangular shape and built in pairs. The Upper Paleolithic builders used the qualities of the available materials to achieve the results of massive winter dwellings, that could last a long time. They used the jowls of the mamooths (Meziříčí), mamooths skulls (Mezin), stones with antlers (Malta in Sibirien) and long mamooths bones to build oval or circular dwellings and flat massive timber that could be easy chopped for quadrate buildings. From the ethnography of indigenous people in North America, we know, that the people did not need axes or saws; all they needed was lithic tools, wooden wedges and lump hammers. The solid planks were chopped right from the standing trees. The decoration of the dwellings was representative, as well as the decorative clothing. A tomb with Sungarian children skeletons was discovered in the middle of one of the dwellings; the man was buried later. Than, another human remains were found nearby, probably from older burials. Therefore, this place is considered as a burial- place. Two other dwellings were built probably later and farther from the graves:"

Where did you find this?
I don't believe it, no saws and no planks in paleolithic.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Mal'ta is also a Gravettian site, only late Gravettian.



Of course there is prove of that migration - read again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal'ta-Buret'_culture#Relationship_to_American_Indians_and_Europeans

"Research published in 2014 suggests that a Mal'ta like people were important genetic contributors to the American Indians, Europeans, and South Asians but did not contribute to and was not related to East Eurasians. Mal'ta had a type of R* y-dna that diverged before the hg R1 and R2 split and an unresolved clade of haplogroup U mtdna.[3] Between 14 and 38 percent of American Indian ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal'ta Buret people, which is essentially western Eurasian in a modern sense, while the other geneflow in the Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin [4]

The genetic findings at Mal'ta may also help account for the Caucasian characteristics of Kennewick Man, a 9,000 year old skeleton discovered in the state of Washington. Mal'ta suggests that the Upper Paleolithic population of western Eurasia may have spread into Siberia and contributed to the physical characteristics of some early American Indians who were different from the East Asians who contributed most of the genetic heritage of the indigenous people of the Americas.[5]"



Haplogroup I is only between 25,000 and 30,000 years old, therefore it could NOT "enter Europe" 33,000 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

33,000 years ago haplogroup I did not exist, at that time there was only IJ which is ancestral to both I and J:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ

Mal'ta was not Gravettian. Where did you get this info?
Mal'ta ancestors arrived in Altai Mountains 38000 year ago, haplo P ancestral to Q and R.

Age of I : check this http://www.yfull.com/tree/IJ/ Wikipedia date is outdated.
IJ split 42900 years ago.
J stayed in Transcaucasia , see Ortvale Klde Cave and Dzudzuana Cave archeological sites, Georgia.
I stayed in northwest Caucasus, archeological site, Mezmayskaya Cave. There, 33000 years ago he invented borers, drilling tools to make eyes in the needles. Then he came into Europe. The holes in the ivory beads of the Sungir man is made with the same borers.

 

[bicicleur 2]

45,770 - 44,010 years ago in western Siberia lived people with haplogroup MPS, among descendants of which is haplogroup P, among descendants of which are haplogroups Q and R, among descendants of which are haplogroups R2 and R1, among descendants of which are haplogroups R1a and R1b:

"Genome sequence of a 45,000-year-old modern human from western Siberia":

Usht Ishim was proto-K-M2335. K-M2335 is ancestral to NO. Usht Ishim had 2 of the 7 known K-M2335 snp's.
K-M2335 : check here http://www.yfull.com/tree/K(xLT)/
Ancestors of Usht Ishim came via Tashkent : archeological site : Obi Rakhmat Cave, oldest non-Neanderthal layer is 48800 years old.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Indo-Europeans did not "arrive". They emerged in eastern regions of Europe from its indigenous hunters.

New linguistic evidence is clear that homeland of Proto-IE language was near homeland of Proto-Uralic language:

http://historum.com/european-histor...y-europe-before-indo-european-expansions.html

Check also this - Proto-Nostratic was ancestral to both Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Uralic and Proto-Altaic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages

The main group of Indo-Europeans were R1a-M417 and R1b-M269.
No R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 DNA has been found in Europe before Corded Ware/Bell Beaker.

Gravettian was 33000 years ago, Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Uralic and Proto-Altaic are no more than 6500 years old.
After ice age was Epigravettian in Europe.

 

[Angela]

Thanks to Bicicleur for correcting the record. Material from non academic sites can sometimes be very misleading. It's also not helpful to mix vastly different time periods in discussions such as these.

Specifically as to dwellings from these time periods, few have actually been found. As is speculated in this paper, it is probably a function of the fact that the hunter-gatherers of many of these groups were highly mobile and would likely have used tents made out of perishable materials.
https://www.academia.edu/1904550/Sp...ers_site_at_Kraków_Spadzista_southern_Poland_

When these people still hunted mammoths, some of their dwellings were made partially of mammoth tusks.
https://books.google.com/books?id=I...EwCQ#v=onepage&q=dwellings Gravettian&f=false

See also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UE...6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=mammoth bone house&f=false

Where some reconstructions have been attempted by archaeologists, this is what they looked like...

Pit houses were also used, where the majority of the dwelling (and storage pits) were dug into the ground and then covered by either bone or hides. This method was used by hunter-gatherers around the world.

Other types of dwellings seem to have been like the teepees of the North American Indians. See:
https://books.google.com/books?id=p...nepage&q=dwellings at Dolni Vestonice&f=false

This is an artist's depiction based on the descriptions of the archaeologists.
http://www2.arch.cam.ac.uk/~ajep2/images/DVII-camp.jpg

 

[Sile]

Usht Ishim was proto-K-M2335. K-M2335 is ancestral to NO. Usht Ishim had 2 of the 7 known K-M2335 snp's.
K-M2335 : check here http://www.yfull.com/tree/K(xLT)/
Ancestors of Usht Ishim came via Tashkent : archeological site : Obi Rakhmat Cave, oldest non-Neanderthal layer is 48800 years old.

Does this K-M2335 sit before or after the K2a haplogroup ( X ydna ) of which N and O ydna belong to??

 

[bicicleur 2]

Does this K-M2335 sit before or after the K2a haplogroup ( X ydna ) of which N and O ydna belong to??

the structure of the haplogroup K has been studied by Karafat in 2014 : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n3/abs/ejhg2014106a.html#close
based upon that study , you can find the new structure here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2 , in which K2a-M147 corresponds to K-M2335 in YFull (they are the same)

note that isogg still proposes a different structure tough : http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpK.html

 

[bicicleur 2]

Thanks to Bicicleur for correcting the record. Material from non academic sites can sometimes be very misleading. It's also not helpful to mix vastly different time periods in discussions such as these.

Specifically as to dwellings from these time periods, few have actually been found. As is speculated in this paper, it is probably a function of the fact that the hunter-gatherers of many of these groups were highly mobile and would likely have used tents made out of perishable materials.
https://www.academia.edu/1904550/Sp...ers_site_at_Kraków_Spadzista_southern_Poland_

When these people still hunted mammoths, some of their dwellings were made partially of mammoth tusks.
https://books.google.com/books?id=I...EwCQ#v=onepage&q=dwellings Gravettian&f=false

See also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UE...6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=mammoth bone house&f=false

Where some reconstructions have been attempted by archaeologists, this is what they looked like...

Pit houses were also used, where the majority of the dwelling (and storage pits) were dug into the ground and then covered by either bone or hides. This method was used by hunter-gatherers around the world.

Other types of dwellings seem to have been like the teepees of the North American Indians. See:
https://books.google.com/books?id=p...nepage&q=dwellings at Dolni Vestonice&f=false

This is an artist's depiction based on the descriptions of the archaeologists.
http://www2.arch.cam.ac.uk/~ajep2/images/DVII-camp.jpg

some of these mammoth bone dwellings were found during the ice age in Mal'ta and/or Afantova Gora
they were also found in epigravettian Ukraine 15000 year old
I admit this is a similarity between these 2 cultures
but I don't think it proofs a migration from east Europe to lake Bajkal , nothing has been found in the area in between
I think both cultures found the same solution to survive in similar harsh conditions
furthermore there are claims Neanderthals would have done the same some 44000 years ago : http://phys.org/news/2011-12-neanderthal-home-mammoth-bones-ukraine.html

this reminds me of the similarities between Solutrean and Clovis spearpoints which gave birth of the hypothesis of an ice age migration from Europe to America, which now is disproved by the fact that there was no R1b in Europe during the ice age
Solutreans and Clovis simply both invented the same spearpoints for hunting large animals like mammoths

 

[oriental]

The Ice Age acted like a huge refrigerator so animals that died their meat was preserved in their carcasses. When the Ice Age ended maybe the rotting carcasses stopped providing food so many of the huge faunas died. The sabre-toothed cat is gone. I think the cat used its sabre teeth to dig into its prey and to repeatedly stab as it cannot chew with those teeth nor bite. Don't know much about the humans. They must have had to adjust.

In another thread there was discussion about cannibalism during the Ice Age in Siberia. Well in the 70's a plane crashed in the Andes mountains and after several months the survivors were rescued. It seems that the survivors resorted to cannibalism as they ate those passengers who had died earlier and their flesh preserved in the snowy mountains provide food. In the Ice Age with a more savage culture it shouldn't be surprising that there was cannibalism as food and game can be scarce sometimes.

 

[Yetos]

I remember there is such a thing in islands North of G Britain,

Houses made by whalebones,
they make a strucure by 'pnanting' whalebones to ground, stand to face each-other giving the shape of an arch,
Do not know how old, but I am suposing older that stonehedge

 

[LeBrok]

But they were members of one tribe - they could be even siblings (brother and sister).

Our modern views on phenotypes result from the fact that people with certain phenotypes propagated in certain geographic areas. But Paleolithic people did not cluster according to modern phenotypes, they had their own phenotypes which later further evolved:

Exactly, and I think the one on the left, the more archaic European is the right reconstruction.

"The Hofmeyr fossil was compared with skulls from Sub-Saharan Africa, including those of the KhoeSan, who are geographically close to the site of the find. Using 3-dimensional measurement and mapping techniques, the study found that the Hofmeyr Skull is rather distinct from those of recent Sub-Saharan Africans, and that its closest affinities were with the people who lived in Eurasia in the Upper Paleolithic period, at the same time as the Hofmeyr skull. Alan Morris said that the skull's owner "would not look like modern Africans or like modern Europeans, or like modern Khoisan people, but he is definitely a modern human being".[1] The skull demonstrates that humans in Africa 36,000 years ago resembled those in Eurasia."

My point exactly. The girl on the right looks exactly like modern European, but she shouldn't. Therefore this reconstruction is no good.
We should be really careful with these reconstructions done by artists, till we have much better knowledge of the genome and can read prototypical traces from it.

 

[LeBrok]

If not people then who built those houses found by archaeologists - maybe some Aliens ???

Here is description:

"In Sungir, the groundfloor of the dwellings were of a rectangular shape and built in pairs. The Upper Paleolithic builders used the qualities of the available materials to achieve the results of massive winter dwellings, that could last a long time. They used the jowls of the mamooths (Meziříčí), mamooths skulls (Mezin), stones with antlers (Malta in Sibirien) and long mamooths bones to build oval or circular dwellings and flat massive timber that could be easy chopped for quadrate buildings. From the ethnography of indigenous people in North America, we know, that the people did not need axes or saws; all they needed was lithic tools, wooden wedges and lump hammers. The solid planks were chopped right from the standing trees. The decoration of the dwellings was representative, as well as the decorative clothing. A tomb with Sungarian children skeletons was discovered in the middle of one of the dwellings; the man was buried later. Than, another human remains were found nearby, probably from older burials. Therefore, this place is considered as a burial- place. Two other dwellings were built probably later and farther from the graves:"

lol, I think this artist, who painted these pictures, was abducted by Aliens. Could you share with us the link to the archaeological paper describing these log and plank houses of Gravettians, please. It would be of a great interest to us, because we only know of caves, skin-stick tents and mammoth tusk tent/huts.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Some stuff on native American long houses (NE) and plank houses (NW)

http://www.native-languages.org/houses.htm


plank house


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plank_house

"The properties of cedar trees include straight grain, very few knots, and weather resistance. The straight grain enabled separation of planks of wood from the tree. The skilled people inserted a wedge to separate a section of wood and followed the height of the tree and adzed it out at both ends. This harvest method was sustainable and enabled the people to use the wood and to have a supply of planks to rebuild in another location."

Apparently you can create planks without even cutting the tree down just by using wedges (although I expect it only works well with certain kinds of tree).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/97/be/a3/97bea33da61e87639928ec3a489af44a.jpg


long house

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longhouses_of_the_indigenous_peoples_of_North_America


http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/IroquoisVillage/images/figure1longhouselg.gif


how to build an Iroquois style long house

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amvv4P4DzJU


another on the NW plank houses with how to cut down trees, split planks and strip bark with stone tools and fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beKxz_2UtMA

(pretty interesting imo)


edit: personally, if these Sungir people had these rectangular houses I'd expect them to look more like the Iroquois long house and less like a log cabin. If the ground was too cold for post holes then single massive logs at ground level could have been used to tie the bendy poles to make the roof (see the Iroquois video at around 5:48 to see what I mean) and then maybe covered in bark.

edit2: "In Sungir, the groundfloor of the dwellings were of a rectangular shape and built in pairs."

Interesting about the pairs. If they were directly adjacent then it might have been one building with the two central logs used to hold central support posts.

 

[Angela]

Some stuff on native American long houses (NE) and plank houses (NW)

http://www.native-languages.org/houses.htm


plank house


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plank_house

"The properties of cedar trees include straight grain, very few knots, and weather resistance. The straight grain enabled separation of planks of wood from the tree. The skilled people inserted a wedge to separate a section of wood and followed the height of the tree and adzed it out at both ends. This harvest method was sustainable and enabled the people to use the wood and to have a supply of planks to rebuild in another location."

Apparently you can create planks without even cutting the tree down just by using wedges (although I expect it only works well with certain kinds of tree).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/97/be/a3/97bea33da61e87639928ec3a489af44a.jpg


long house

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longhouses_of_the_indigenous_peoples_of_North_Amer ica


http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/IroquoisVillage/images/figure1longhouselg.gif


how to build an Iroquois style long house

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amvv4P4DzJU


another on the NW plank houses with how to cut down trees, split planks and strip bark with stone tools and fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beKxz_2UtMA

(pretty interesting imo)


edit: personally, if these Sungir people had these rectangular houses I'd expect them to look more like the Iroquois long house and less like a log cabin. If the ground was too cold for post holes then single massive logs at ground level could have been used to tie the bendy poles to make the roof (see the Iroquois video at around 5:48 to see what I mean) and then maybe covered in bark.

edit2: "In Sungir, the groundfloor of the dwellings were of a rectangular shape and built in pairs."

Interesting about the pairs. If they were directly adjacent then it might have been one building with the two central logs used to hold central support posts.

I like youtube videos too, but perhaps you should take a closer look at the one you linked to about the making of the plank houses of the Pacific coast American Indians. They were made with iron hatchets for which they traded through Siberia.

The Iroquois longhouses, whose reconstructions I've seen, were just poles stuck into the ground and then covered with tree bark. Regardless, they were also attested after contact with European civilizations.

This is the difficulty with comparing vastly different cultures separated by 10,000 years in very different areas.

It's also the difficulty with relying on blogs produced by non-academics.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

I like youtube videos too, but perhaps you should take a closer look at the one you linked to about the making of the plank houses of the Pacific coast American Indians. They were made with iron hatchets for which they traded through Siberia.

The Iroquois longhouses, whose reconstructions I've seen, were just poles stuck into the ground and then covered with tree bark. Regardless, they were also attested after contact with European civilizations.

This is the difficulty with comparing vastly different cultures separated by 10,000 years in very different areas.

It's also the difficulty with relying on blogs produced by non-academics.

The question is, is this second bit true (I don't know)

They used the jowls of the mamooths (Meziříčí), mamooths skulls (Mezin), stones with antlers (Malta in Sibirien) and long mamooths bones to build oval or circular dwellings and flat massive timber that could be easy chopped for quadrate buildings.

and if so what would those "quadrate" buildings with (I assume) a log outline at the base look like.

points from the videos

1) Anything harder than wood can cut wood - even if very slowly - hence why they used fire to speed it up.

2) The videos clearly show how you can make planks with wedges and hammers (and a wedge and hammer could be two rocks or a piece of bone and a rock). You're right they wouldn't be all smooth and pretty like the ones in the video but they'd be planks.

3) The videos also show how you could tie them together with rope made out of bark and how bark could be used as a covering.

Given the time period, tools available and effort required I'm not convinced they'd have nice log cabins like those in the illustrations so what other reason might they have had for having logs marking out the size of the house?

(I don't think planks are likely either if they couldn't dig the post holes needed for solidity.)

If the ground was too frozen for post holes then the logs could be used as a kind of foundation mass. Lash one end of the support poles to the logs, bend them inwards and lash them together in the center creating a kind of wooden tent held together by tension, cover it with bark and you have the equivalent of an Iroquois long house.

Maybe something like this

http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/IroquoisVillage/images/figure1longhouselg.gif

but picture it with large logs running along the outside and the support poles lashed to those logs for support instead of in post holes.

That seems plausible to me.

The next question is why would they do that. My guess would be maybe outside winter the extended family groups wandered around with their portable mammoth tusk yurts but in the winter the whole tribe piled into a long house for the body heat - a bit like later north European long houses with sections for the animals to provide central heating on legs.

It also says these quadrate buildings were built in pairs so if the layout of the long sides of the logs was something like I---II---I i.e. directly side by side with a small gap between the two middle ones then my guess is it would be a single building with the central support poles lashed to the two central logs - which would also provide a nice seat.

So basically a large bark tent with logs to weight it down.

 

[Tomenable]

Material from non academic sites can sometimes be very misleading.

That website is academic, at least it claims to be:

"Antropark was created as part of the website of the Academy of Sciences in Brno in 2005."

Where did you find this?

I provided links to my sources - check them.

Mal'ta was not Gravettian. Where did you get this info?

Why not? They had Venus figurines like Gravettian.

I provided links to sources of all info - check.

Mal'ta ancestors arrived in Altai Mountains 38000 year ago, haplo P ancestral to Q and R.

Where did you get this info? There is no any ancient DNA from the Altai Mountains with haplogroup P.

The oldest ancient Y-DNA examined so far are 45,000 years old Ust'-Ishim man, 38,000 years old Kostenki 14 man and 24,000 years old Mal'ta boy. There is nothing else between this 38,000 years old guy and this 24,000 years old guy, so far. Certainly not any P.

Kostenki 14 was indeed 38,000 years old, but he was of haplogroup C1, not P.

No R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 DNA has been found in Europe before Corded Ware/Bell Beaker.

There is R1a1* ancestral to M417 in Karelia (age 5500-5000 BC) and then R1a1 from Serteya in Smolensk Oblast (age 4000 BC):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Check:

- Chekunova E. M. et al. (2014), The first results of genetic typing of local population and ancient humans in Upper Dvina region, in A. Mazurkevich, M. Polkovnikova and E. Dolbunova (eds.), Archaeology of lake settlement IV-II mill. BC, pp. 290-294.

- Haak, W. et al. (2015), Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe, bioRxiv preprint.

 

[Tomenable]

One more thing concerning this:

R1a1 from Serteya in Smolensk Oblast (age 4000 BC)

They have not tested it for further subclades beyond R1a1 so far.

So it is possible that it was already R1a1a (M417). We will probably find out soon.

Even if not, then still M417 could emerge in that region, from those ancestral M420 hunters.

There are already two samples of very old (4000-5500 BC) R1a1 from European Russia - one in Karelia, one near Smolensk.

AFAIK these cases are the only samples of such old M420 found so far in ancient DNA anywhere.