Ice Age Europeans On Brink Of Extinction

BTW - I admit that you were right when it comes to haplogroup I, bicicleur.

LeBrok said:
The girl on the right looks exactly like modern European, but she shouldn't.

Why not ???

That "average" looks of prehistoric peoples were different than "average" looks of modern peoples, doesn't mean that some of prehistoric individuals did not look exactly like some of modern individuals. Perhaps you have heard about Kennewick Man ???

It seems that Kennewick Man looked like modern actor Patrick Stewart:

Kennewick Man (9500 years old, North America):

28-2.jpg


Patrick Stewart (here as Captain John Luke Picard):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rYhRqf757I

And here Kennewick Man + Patrick Stewart + Chief Black Hawk of the Sauks (born 1767, died 1838):

PatrickStewart.jpg


Another reconstruction confirms that Kennewick Man - when bald and without facial hair - looks like Patrick Stewart:

KASNOT_ART_KennewickMan.jpg
 
BTW - I admit that you were right when it comes to haplogroup I, bicicleur.



Why not ???

That "average" looks of prehistoric peoples were different than "average" looks of modern peoples, doesn't mean that some of prehistoric individuals did not look exactly like some of modern individuals. Perhaps you have heard about Kennewick Man ???

It seems that Kennewick Man looked like modern actor Patrick Stewart:

Kennewick Man (9500 years old, North America):

28-2.jpg


Patrick Stewart (here as Captain John Luke Picard):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rYhRqf757I

And here Kennewick Man + Patrick Stewart + Chief Black Hawk of the Sauks (born 1767, died 1838):

PatrickStewart.jpg


Another reconstruction confirms that Kennewick Man - when bald and without facial hair - looks like Patrick Stewart:




Have a look at her forehead. It is very vertical without big eyebrow ridges. This type of forehead came with farmers from Near East.
gravet28.jpg



For comparison this is a link to Gravettian skull from Czech Republic area. It features prominent eyebrow ridges and slanted forehead.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29518-Collection-of-skulls?p=448518&viewfull=1#post448518

Here is another one with very small nose bridge. She, form the picture above, has rather bigger and vertical bridge. Look at the forehead again.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29518-Collection-of-skulls?p=448519&viewfull=1#post448519

Similar forehead and nose situation with Kostenki individual.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29518-Collection-of-skulls?p=443883&viewfull=1#post443883

Gravettians look more like Kennewick man than modern Europeans. Though we could find some modern Europeans looking in similar way.
Like Brock Lesnar
Brock_Lesnar_Undertaker.jpg


If it comes to Patrick Stewart, he is not the best proxy for Gravettians. Granted he's forehead is slanted, but he doesn't have prominant eyebrow ridges. He's nose ridge and roots are high, unlike Gravettians. Kennewick man's nose roots are very low.
1758854887.jpg


If it comes to the girl from the picture, she has skull more like this one, of Neolithic farmer.
600px-Schaedel_Herxheim_01.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29518-Collection-of-skulls?p=425534&viewfull=1#post425534
 
The question is, is this second bit true (I don't know)



and if so what would those "quadrate" buildings with (I assume) a log outline at the base look like.

points from the videos

1) Anything harder than wood can cut wood - even if very slowly - hence why they used fire to speed it up.

2) The videos clearly show how you can make planks with wedges and hammers (and a wedge and hammer could be two rocks or a piece of bone and a rock). You're right they wouldn't be all smooth and pretty like the ones in the video but they'd be planks.

3) The videos also show how you could tie them together with rope made out of bark and how bark could be used as a covering.

Given the time period, tools available and effort required I'm not convinced they'd have nice log cabins like those in the illustrations so what other reason might they have had for having logs marking out the size of the house?

(I don't think planks are likely either if they couldn't dig the post holes needed for solidity.)

If the ground was too frozen for post holes then the logs could be used as a kind of foundation mass. Lash one end of the support poles to the logs, bend them inwards and lash them together in the center creating a kind of wooden tent held together by tension, cover it with bark and you have the equivalent of an Iroquois long house.

Maybe something like this

http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/IroquoisVillage/images/figure1longhouselg.gif

but picture it with large logs running along the outside and the support poles lashed to those logs for support instead of in post holes.

That seems plausible to me.

The next question is why would they do that. My guess would be maybe outside winter the extended family groups wandered around with their portable mammoth tusk yurts but in the winter the whole tribe piled into a long house for the body heat - a bit like later north European long houses with sections for the animals to provide central heating on legs.

It also says these quadrate buildings were built in pairs so if the layout of the long sides of the logs was something like I---II---I i.e. directly side by side with a small gap between the two middle ones then my guess is it would be a single building with the central support poles lashed to the two central logs - which would also provide a nice seat.

So basically a large bark tent with logs to weight it down.

I'm sure I don't need to point out that this is all conjecture on your part. What could have been done doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what was actually done...for that all we have to go on is the archaeological evidence. Regardless, a large bark tent with logs to weight it down bears no resemblance to the fantasy dwellings pictured at the Anthropark site linked to in an above post.
 
That website is academic, at least it claims to be:

"Antropark was created as part of the website of the Academy of Sciences in Brno in 2005."

If that is the case then perhaps someone should inform the Academy of Sciences in Brno that this artist's renderings are totally fantastical, as they show dwellings and other artifacts which could never have been created with the technology available to the people of the Gravettian culture, and they should either get him to create drawings that comport with the archaeological evidence or cease letting him associate himself and his work with their institution.

Indeed, the EHGs on the Pontic Caspian steppe before the encounter with the Neolithic civilizations to their west and south were still living in hide tents and dwellings half dug into the earth thousands and thousands of years later.

I actually don't understand the point of some of these latter posts. Isn't it enough that the people of the Gravettian and doubtless the EHG who later occupied the vastness of Eurasia were hardy, resourceful, courageous hunter gatherers? Why is it necessary to accrue to them technology and accomplishments which didn't exist for thousands of years?

I provided links to my sources - check them.

You provided a link only to one dubious site for the renderings of their houses and artifacts, houses and artifacts which couldn't have been built by them.

You have not provided links to the renderings of the people so that we may judge the qualifications of the people who made them and the anthropological measurements and other data upon which they were based.

Just generally, as LeBrok has pointed out, it is very risky coming to any hard and fast conclusions about the appearance of ancient peoples. What is clear given the evidence we do have is that it is highly unlikely that they looked very much like modern Europeans. Indeed, the first ancient skull that corresponds the best with the majority of modern Europeans is, in my opinion, that of the LBK woman.

I therefore don't take any of the reconstructions that have been done as any sort of hard and fast proof. Just take a look at the first reconstruction of Oetzi and conjectures about his appearance based just on rough measurements, and then what they came up with after extensive scanning. Also, keep in mind that in that case we have a virtual body, not just some bones or parts of bones.

At any rate, if we're going to go by any reconstructions, perhaps those of Gerasimov are worthy of a little more credit, since he was at least an anthropologist.

Here is his rendering of Kostenki 14. This is a man adapted to the tropics, which makes sense as that's where his ancestors came from, and they had not yet adapted to their new climate.
possibly_Kostenki.jpg


This is Gerasimov's Sunghir man...look at this nose and jaw. You may find a European somewhere who looks a bit like him, but this is not a common European phenotype.
6a.jpg


These were done by another Russian anthropologist of two other samples from that site:
hqdefault.jpg


They look even less modern European...indeed, they have a decided "Siberian" or partly east Asian look to them, which brings me to the fact that Mal'ta had, according to Gerasimov, "Mongoloid" traits. While I was always a little skeptical of his claims, the finding of EDAR markers in the SHG is prompting me to give it more consideration.

What we do know is that he had none of the modern European snps for depigmentation.

Given all of this, I am highly skeptical that these people looked anything like modern Europeans.

Of course, anyone who wishes to imagine that the Gravettians looked just like modern Eastern Europeans is free to do so.

Why not? They had Venus figurines like Gravettian.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that Mal'ta culture is the same as the Gravettian of Europe.
 
Anthropology is slightly overrated / outdated by now. You should trust DNA instead of comparing noses.

the finding of EDAR markers in the SHG is prompting me to give it more consideration.

These "Mongoloid" EDAR markers are also present in many modern Scandinavians (and I'm not talking about the Sami / Lapps).

Here is his rendering of Kostenki 14. This is a man adapted to the tropics

Adopted to the tropics? What indicates that he was adopted to the tropics?

This is Gerasimov's Sunghir man...look at this nose and jaw. You may find a European somewhere who looks a bit like him, but this is not a common European phenotype.

Maybe not very common, but why do you assume that it was common during the Gravettian period ???

LeBrok was surprised that Gravettian phenotypes greatly differed from each other. Much like today European phenotypes. I posted reconstructions of two kids who were buried in the same grave (perhaps siblings), yet LeBrok claimed they were "two different races":

LeBrok said:
These are two different phenotype or races. The one on the right looks really modern European, and has very vertical forehead which showed up in Neolithic with farmers. The one on the left has much flatter nose and protruding forward jaw and mouth, more archaic in Europe. I would be surprised to see them in one tribe.

Apparently genetic race =/= anthropological "race".

Those two kids, even if not siblings, were obviously part of the same clan / close reproductive community.

So genetically they surely had much in common, despite their different "anthropological types" / phenotypes / looks.

================================

BTW - it did not take me a long time to find one who looks similar to that particular Sunghir man:

Darlana.png


They look even less modern European...indeed, they have a decided "Siberian" or partly east Asian look to them, which brings me to the fact that Mal'ta had, according to Gerasimov, "Mongoloid" traits.

Then either reconstructions are wrong or they had such looks despite having nothing in common (genetically) with East Asians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal'ta-Buret'_culture#Relationship_to_American_Indians_and_Europeans

Research published in 2014 suggests that a Mal'ta like people were important genetic contributors to the American Indians, Europeans, and South Asians but did not contribute to and was not related to East Eurasians. Mal'ta had a type of R* y-dna that diverged before the hg R1 and R2 split and an unresolved clade of haplogroup U mtdna.[3] Between 14 and 38 percent of American Indian ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal'ta Buret people, which is essentially western Eurasian in a modern sense, while the other geneflow in the Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin [4]

The genetic findings at Mal'ta may also help account for the Caucasian characteristics of Kennewick Man, a 9,000 year old skeleton discovered in the state of Washington. Mal'ta suggests that the Upper Paleolithic population of western Eurasia may have spread into Siberia and contributed to the physical characteristics of some early American Indians who were different from the East Asians who contributed most of the genetic heritage of the indigenous people of the Americas.[5]

Genetic evidence shows that those people were not ancestors of East Asians, but of Europeans, South Asians and Amerindians.

As I wrote above, anthropology is already slightly overrated / obsolete because we have genetics.
 
Given all of this, I am highly skeptical that these people looked anything like modern Europeans.

Of course, anyone who wishes to imagine that the Gravettians looked just like modern Eastern Europeans is free to do so.

First of all I don't know where did the argument about looks start. I was arguing about genetic ancestry, not about looks. It was LeBrok who claimed that those two kids (probably siblings) "could not belong to the same tribe because they look so differently". For the record, I look rather different than both my biological parents. Apparently inheritance of phenotype is more complicated than you think.

I was told by family that I look much more similar to one of my great-grandfathers than to my father.

Physical traits can sometimes "skip" up to several generations, apparently.

If it comes to Patrick Stewart, he is not the best proxy for Gravettians. Granted he's forehead is slanted

Genetic evidence > comparing foreheads.

My forehead is slanted, my mother's is not, my father's is not (and I'm not adopted if you ask).

I already told you - compare DNA, not noses and foreheads.
 
LeBrok was surprised that Gravettian phenotypes greatly differed from each other. Much like today European phenotypes. I posted reconstructions of two kids who were buried in the same grave (perhaps siblings), yet LeBrok claimed they were "two different races":
Can you post their skulls, not the reconstructions.
 
First of all I don't know where did the argument about looks start. I was arguing about genetic ancestry, not about looks. It was LeBrok who claimed that those two kids (probably siblings) "could not belong to the same tribe because they look so differently". For the record, I look rather different than both my biological parents. Apparently inheritance of phenotype is more complicated than you think.

I was told by family that I look much more similar to one of my great-grandfathers than to my father.

Physical traits can sometimes "skip" up to several generations, apparently.
Hunter gatherer tribes are much more uniform than modern Europeans, who as we know are amalgamation of few ancient distinct populations. Look at Inuits, Australian or Amazon natives and you will see what I mean. They all look like brothers and sisters.



Genetic evidence > comparing foreheads.

My forehead is slanted, my mother's is not, my father's is not (and I'm not adopted if you ask).

I already told you - compare DNA, not noses and foreheads.
What do you mean, shape of skull, forehead and nose is not determined by DNA? It is like reading DNA almost.

I'm not sure why you are so defensive in your responses. When we pointed out some shortcomings of the renderings of Gravettians and their houses, you stood out in their deference like it was your own website. For some reason, in your mind, we have to be wrong and they have to be right. It beats me. Do you have personal interest and feelings to make Gravettians look and live like modern Europeans? Just let them be who they were, don't make them in something they've never been.
 
That website is academic, at least it claims to be:

"Antropark was created as part of the website of the Academy of Sciences in Brno in 2005."



I provided links to my sources - check them.



Why not? They had Venus figurines like Gravettian.

I provided links to sources of all info - check.



Where did you get this info? There is no any ancient DNA from the Altai Mountains with haplogroup P.

The oldest ancient Y-DNA examined so far are 45,000 years old Ust'-Ishim man, 38,000 years old Kostenki 14 man and 24,000 years old Mal'ta boy. There is nothing else between this 38,000 years old guy and this 24,000 years old guy, so far. Certainly not any P.

Kostenki 14 was indeed 38,000 years old, but he was of haplogroup C1, not P.



There is R1a1* ancestral to M417 in Karelia (age 5500-5000 BC) and then R1a1 from Serteya in Smolensk Oblast (age 4000 BC):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Check:

- Chekunova E. M. et al. (2014), The first results of genetic typing of local population and ancient humans in Upper Dvina region, in A. Mazurkevich, M. Polkovnikova and E. Dolbunova (eds.), Archaeology of lake settlement IV-II mill. BC, pp. 290-294.

- Haak, W. et al. (2015), Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe, bioRxiv preprint.

this is a very good article about IUP : the spread of stone blade tools

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=...=XL7JcbMWgxlGBfN8VXPC3A&bvm=bv.80642063,d.d24

IMO the spread from the Levant to Europa was haplogroup C1a, the spread from the Altaï Mts into Mongolia were N & O, who split in the Altaï Mts
the oldest arrival in the Altaï Mts is 47000 years ago (Kara Bom) (I know YFull estimates these groups somewhat younger though)
before the Altaï Mts, haplogroup X (or K2a) ancestral to NO was in Obi-Rakhmat 48800 years ago :
http://balkhandshambhala.blogspot.be/2013/11/obi-rakhmat-grotto-57000-bc.html (this cave was occupied before by Neanderthals since 87000 years ago, and even before that probably by Denisovans)
Ust-Ishim was proto-X

In Siberia the are 2 paleolithic periods : early UP ( = IUP ) and late UP
Late UP started to spread 38000 years ago from the Altai Mountains into central and eastern Siberia
IMO these were haplo R and Q
unfortunately I don't have a good link for this
 
I'm sure I don't need to point out that this is all conjecture on your part. What could have been done doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what was actually done...for that all we have to go on is the archaeological evidence. Regardless, a large bark tent with logs to weight it down bears no resemblance to the fantasy dwellings pictured at the Anthropark site linked to in an above post.


The archaeological evidence (apparently) says they laid out logs in a rectangular pattern. Maybe they're wrong about the logs or maybe it was a burial thing or something else. I'm only considering what might have been possible *if* those logs were for housing.

The thing is if it was housing - and maybe it wasn't - then there'd be a reason why they did that rather than this:

Indeed, the EHGs on the Pontic Caspian steppe before the encounter with the Neolithic civilizations to their west and south were still living in hide tents and dwellings half dug into the earth thousands and thousands of years later.

So if it was housing - and maybe it wasn't - then the reason may have been something to do with it being colder where they were.
 
LeBrok said:
What do you mean, shape of skull, forehead and nose is not determined by DNA?

It is determined by DNA. But how genes work and get regulated is not as simple as you think. There are many ways of how genes can get "expressed" and they may be "activated" or stay "asleep". You can read more about this for example here - very similar genes can get "expressed" in different ways:

http://enews.membs.org/Exploring-Genetic-Factors-That-Controls-Human-Brain-Size

(...) The fact is that you don’t need a gene to make a big brain. In fact, it’s quite likely that a lot of the DNA that’s crucial for making a big human brain doesn’t come in the form of genes at all. Here I’m using “gene” in the sense we usually mean it, a stretch of DNA that codes for a protein. That’s what ARHGAP11B does. But protein-coding genes occupy only a minuscule 1% of the human genome. The rest of it–formerly known as junk DNA, now called non-coding DNA–is largely still a mystery. But it’s clear that much of it, maybe most of it, is supervising what genes do. Regulating gene action. Which is why, forty years ago, scientists proposed that the phenotypic differences between humans and chimps—those dramatic differences in appearance and behavior–came about largely because we humans evolved new ways of regulating our similar genes. Since then researchers have identified many DNA regions that didn’t change much during the evolution of mammals, including most primates, but began to explode with variation, many of them after the first early hominins diverged from the evolutionary line leading to chimps. These DNA bits are called Human-Accelerated Regions (HAR). HARs are present in our dead-and-gone relatives, the Neanderthals and Denisovans, as well as us. HARs lie mostly in non-coding DNA. That has made their functions not so easy to figure out. But there are hints about what they do, because HARs are not scattered randomly in the genome. (...)

================================

When we pointed out some shortcomings of the renderings of Gravettians and their houses, you stood out in their deference like it was your own website. For some reason, in your mind, we have to be wrong and they have to be right. It beats me.

In posts #45 and #46 I actually did not continue to discuss the "Gravettian houses issue", in case if you didn't notice.

Perhaps you are correct and that site is wrong on Gravettian houses.

Hunter gatherer tribes are much more uniform than modern Europeans

No they are not. By the way evolution works partially through selection, so in the past variation should be bigger than in present times. And through selection some of prehistoric phenotypes became very frequent while some others became much less frequent. Of course in different regions it worked differently and humans adapted to different conditions and climates.

On the other hand, there are of course also new mutations and thus new phenotypes appearing all the time.

So thanks to new mutations diversity can increase, especially in large populations.

Look at Inuits, Australian or Amazon natives and you will see what I mean. They all look like brothers and sisters.

This claim is about as far from the truth as possible. In Australia even two neighbouring groups / clans living on two sides of the same river could look as "distinct races":

http://historum.com/european-history/88213-linguistic-diversity-europe-before-indo-european-expansions.html

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4381154;view=1up;seq=15

Tribes.png

But this excerpt is actually not telling the whole stories. Those clans did exchange genes - mostly through stealing or trading of women. But despite exchange (often not peaceful) of women between clans, they still maintained they characteristic looks.
 
What with difensive attitude again. Everything I said was wrong? Gees.


It is determined by DNA. But how genes work and get regulated is not as simple as you think. There are many ways of how genes can get "expressed" and they may be "activated" or stay "asleep". You can read more about this for example here - very similar genes can get "expressed" in different ways:

http://enews.membs.org/Exploring-Genetic-Factors-That-Controls-Human-Brain-Size

Ok then, a skull is an action of expressed DNA and of coding and non-coding region. We are still comparing DNA when comparing skulls or other bones.



================================



In posts #45 and #46 I actually did not continue to discuss the "Gravettian houses issue", in case if you didn't notice.

Perhaps you are correct and that site is wrong on Gravettian houses.
Not discussing doesn't mean agreeing. Why not mention at least "You might be right"?



No they are not. By the way evolution works partially through selection, so in the past variation should be bigger than in present times. And through selection some of prehistoric phenotypes became very frequent while some others became much less frequent. Of course in different regions it worked differently and humans adapted to different conditions and climates.On the other hand, there are of course also new mutations and thus new phenotypes appearing all the time.So thanks to new mutations diversity can increase, especially in large populations.
Aren't the new mutations replacing old once and gradually old ones disappear? I'm sure we don't have many genes we used to have when we were Homo Erectus. Even if it is a slow process, when we have a secluded tribe, all mix together spreading the features and DNA evenly through the group.

Besides we were analyzing skulls found in one group and not all the groups spread through Europe. By small group standards they should be very similar. In small group genes flow quickly, they are all cousins after all.
Yagua-Tribe-Amazon-in-Amazon.jpg


bushmen-san.jpg

Do you see the prototypical variety among these cousins?







This claim is about as far from the truth as possible. In Australia even two neighbouring groups / clans living on two sides of the same river could look as "distinct races":

http://historum.com/european-history/88213-linguistic-diversity-europe-before-indo-european-expansions.html

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4381154;view=1up;seq=15

Tribes.png

But this excerpt is actually not telling the whole stories. Those clans did exchange genes - mostly through stealing or trading of women. But despite exchange (often not peaceful) of women between clans, they still maintained they characteristic looks.
I can't argue with this description, as the supposed differences are in the eye of the author only. Besides, nobody here says that separation is not making a group drift into new mutations and develop distinct phenotype.
What is important here is that it says that the separate group could be distinguished from another. It means that within each group people were very alike, almost like a different race, in eyes of the author.
This is what this discussion is all about. The likeness of people in separate group. The way these two sisters lived.

Where you able to locate the skulls of these girls?
 
Many of us have posted reconstructions, but only, in most cases, with the understanding that not all of them were done by qualified people, some of them were done before modern imaging techniques could be used, and even the latest and best done are not going to be exact, given that they were done on skulls or fragments of skulls. Then there is the fact that the subjective biases of the scientists and artists come into play. The early reconstructions of Oetzi looked like a blue eyed man from the British Isles. Then the dna came out and he is closest to a Sardinian of the fairer skinned variety. At least the latest reconstruction is based on advanced imaging of an actual body, and takes account of the dna, but none of them can be taken as gospel, including that one.

On the other hand, to say that physical anthropology no longer has anything useful to tell us is incorrect. It is used everyday in forensic science, imperfect as it may be, to tell us that the skeleton is male or female, likely to be "Caucasian" or "African" etc.

Also, as LeBrok pointed out, genetics is written into the "bone".

As he further pointed out, hunter gatherer groups were very homogenous, inbred really. That is the point of the paper which is the subject of this thread. They are talking about an "effective population" size of about 30*. That's different from saying that was the total population at the time period they are describing. Still, you wouldn't be talking about probably much more than 5,000 people total. An individual band could have been 30 or 40 people. The bands would have been separated from each other for long periods, which means they would have been breeding amongst themselves. Even if they occasionally bred with another group with whom they occasionally intersected, inbreeding over and over again in the same pool for thousands of years means that people within any kind of proximity to one another would have become very similar to one another, much less people from one specific site.

Such inbreeding would also have had deleterious consequences. That's why the author said there would have been an effect on "fitness". The same issue arose with respect to Loschbour. It's only when you have large populations, the kind of population growth that occurred with the Neolithic, and then large migrations from long separated areas that you can get some genetic variety.

As to Kostenki man, the reconstruction makes him look like a Papuan or someone from far southern India.. I don't know how accurate that is, but it is certainly the way the anthropologists pictured him and his people. If he did look like that, I don't know why this is such a surprise. These people didn't drop out of a space ship. The migration path led from Africa to India and on to southeast Asia and beyond. At some point a group of them moved northward. The phenotype would have taken some time to change. I don't think there's anything controversial about any of this.
 
LeBrok said:
What with difensive attitude again. Everything I said was wrong? Gees.

Well, no. I admit that most of your and Angela's points were right - thanks!

However, you continue to defend reliability of anthropology, especially comparing skulls:

LeBrok said:
What do you mean, shape of skull, forehead and nose is not determined by DNA? It is like reading DNA almost.
LeBrok said:
a skull is an action of expressed DNA and of coding and non-coding region. We are still comparing DNA when comparing skulls or other bones.

But I remember that you support the theory about Slavic replacement in Poland during the Migration Period. I also support the theory about Slavic immigration. But if anthropology is so reliable, then please explain why does comparing skulls show continuity since the Bronze Age in Poland, instead of replacement? Based on comparison of skulls anthropologists from Poznan University (under prof. Piontek) claim that Poles are native to Poland since the Bronze Age (Lusatian, Biskupin, etc.) and throughout the Iron Age (Przeworsk, Wielbark):

Prof. Janusz Piontek made a demographical simulation, taking into account the level of immigration and assimilation. Thereafter he researched osteological material - examining ancient bones. On this basis he estimated what was the dynamics of demographic developments during the period of Roman influences, and during the early Middle Ages. He compared data concerning Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures and that concerning the early Middle Ages. The results of his research were in disagreement with the popular theory of total depopulation and then re-population (...) Piontek's results are consistent with results of research by dr Robert Dąbrowski, who collected rich craniological material from the period of Roman influences and from the early Middle Ages. He used the method of craniological distances of Mahalanobis, as a method taking into account individual skulls (...) It turned out, that skulls of people representing Wielbark, Przeworsk and Chernyakhov cultures were very similar to early Medieval skulls of Slavic populations. (...) According to prof. Piontek and his team, the theory according to which there took place a morphological discontinuity within populations living in what is now Poland in times between the period of Roman influence and the early Middle Ages, is impossible to sustain. Similarities were extraordinarily high.

- We anthropologists do not claim, that we are explaining political, historical, and ethnic-cultural transformations. - said prof. Piontek - We only indicate, that the popular allochthonistic hypothesis, which assumes a total depopulation of the Odra and Vistula basins and then a renewed colonization of those areas by a distinct immigrant population, is not correct.

Because some of Polish anthropologists and even archaeologists question the possibility of researching genetic similarities between human populations based on craniological and odontological features (comparing skulls, bones and teeth), prof. Piontek presented examples from recent global literature which debunk their assertions. He cited several specific examples from literature on the subject, concerning analyses of ethnogenesis based on nonmetrical features - performed by scientists from Japan. Also commonly accepted are studies on teeth, in order to prove or disprove morphological continuity of population in time - for example research by prof. Joel irish concerning the continuity/discontinuity of settlement in Egypt. Piontek proved that standards he used in his studies on ethnogenesis of Slavs are in agreement with standards accepted today in the scientific world. (...)

- Lack of intergroup differences between populations from times of Roman influences and later West Slavic populations, in terms of craniological and odontological features, testifies to the similar genetic structure of both populations - prof. Piontek finished his lecture.

Translated from: http://archeowiesci.pl/2008/11/12/od-kiedy-slowianie-zyja-nad-wisla-i-odra/

Does it mean that one population emigrated and another one immigrated but happened, by accident, to have identical skulls?
 
Aren't the new mutations replacing old once and gradually old ones disappear?

I don't think that mutations easily and entirely disappear. Their frequency can drastically decrease, but survive in some individuals.

I'm sure we don't have many genes we used to have when we were Homo Erectus.

We certainly do. We even have mostly the same genes as we used to have when we were a unity with ancestors of chimpanzees. Humans even share ca. 40% of DNA with onions, so yeah - we even have many genes that common ancestor of humans and onions had. :)

I'm not joking, we do share 40% of DNA with onions (and with chimapnzees something like 95%, IIRC).
 
the mutations rates, selection and disparition of old forms of genes (genes do not disappear too often, by chance?) are not the same on every part of our chromosomes or in our mitochondries, I think. adaptation. but some chains of genes are constantly modifying, slowly but surely, and at some stage, an old form of these chains can disappear, completely, not by destruction, but by proper mutations - the central form OF THE MOMENT (already with a lot of mutations, but lacking the more recent ones) is always the more numerous as a rule? BEFORE BEGINNING TO BE LESS AND LESS NUMEROUS : of course the great numbers law (statistical) can be perturbed in low number populations where new mutations are more often in big danger to disappear - even more if families are small - or in some rare cases it is the former form which can disappear - as a whole, I think small groups show rather a slow evolution (it could explain the less evolved Y-R1b of Caucasus and S-E Europe) -
big birth rates with dispersion of small enough groups (but ot too small)at the periphery seems to me the better warrant of a great diversity, at first sight (I have not a simulation program in my computer!
 

This thread has been viewed 50700 times.

Back
Top